Kinect - Inital Impressions

[HawkMan]

HawkMan, you subscribe to the same Tree House as this fool? You have some growing up to do as well.

What are you guys even doing on an internet forum when you cant stomach those opinions that vary yours?

Same moronic lynch mob that drove AB off. Anyway, you won't get any further response from me. Let mods handle this however they feel fit.

Feel free to add me to your ignore lists. Do us the favor.

Maybe you should look in the mirror, you're the one in the xbox forum, plainly trolling on a product you have zero interest in on a platform you have zero interest in.

As for AB, He drove himself off, that's all that needs to be said on that, and more so probably. if you can't see that, you need to read some post history. Also that's something that's neither here nor there and certainly has no relevance to this discussion.

[Spookie]

Right show stopping news from IGN:

Kinect only works/functions when you're standing up

Right now, Kinect only works when you stand. This includes menu navigation. All the cool options to grab a slider and advance through frames of a movie you are watching only work when you are on your feet. Kinect, we've been told, has problems handling your skeletal frame while sitting. The voice commands still work, but every game we've seen and even simple menu navigation have to be done with you out of your seat. That's not exactly how I want to watch my movies. If the focus for Kinect is creating games like Dance Central that naturally would require you to be off your couch, that's great. But I have to say, no one thinks "I am driving a car!" while standing up in their living room.

Edge say they are trying to fix this. They also need to fix input lag?

"Xbox, cancel preorder"? :laugh:

[Unrealistic]

Right show stopping news from IGN:

Edge say they are trying to fix this. They also need to fix input lag?

"Xbox, cancel preorder"? :laugh:

Jesus, if that's true, talk about a ****ing F-A-I-L. Damn, I hope that isn't true.

[MR_Candyman]

Right show stopping news from IGN:

Edge say they are trying to fix this. They also need to fix input lag?

"Xbox, cancel preorder"? :laugh:

Ouch. Oddly I thought they would have had that worked out by now. I just expected lag and the occasional glitch where it would lose your position

[carmatic]

Right show stopping news from IGN:

Edge say they are trying to fix this. They also need to fix input lag?

"Xbox, cancel preorder"? :laugh:

well thats abit of a let down... but yeah that is a good point, its far simpler to track your body when its spatially seperated from every other object ... maybe if they had a 'set up routine' which starts everytime you turn on natal, where you had to move your body while you are sitting in the chair or something? so whatever moves = your body, whatever doesnt move = the chair...

also the lighting conditions when watching movies is probably not ideal for natal, i think this is why all the demos they showed people using speech control when the movie was underway

[HawkMan]

When you're sitting it usually only needs to track your head for most action anyway, which we know it can do, they even showed it int he video conference. I suspect they should be able to iron out the hand gestures and hand navigation by release no problem.

And where does the input lag come from, none of the reputable review sites that have tried the current model have had had any complaints about input lag. they got half a year to do it, and considering what they have done with it already, and if the sitting down problem really exist, I doubt they wouldn't be able to fix it. After all, I can't imagine MS either would expect you to stand up to watch movies and control the dashboard. and I really doubt Turn 10 expect you to stand up with your wheel in the air to drive a sim racer.

also the lighting conditions when watching movies is probably not ideal for natal, i think this is why all the demos they showed people using speech control when the movie was underway

That's why it doesn't use the RGB camera for gestures and such and such, but the heat/IR cameras.

[Unrealistic]

One thing I wanted to know is how do you control the gas and breaks for these racing games when you're standing up (and I guess sitting down)?

[HawkMan]

One thing I wanted to know is how do you control the gas and breaks for these racing games when you're standing up (and I guess sitting down)?

Sitting down they've generally shown it as pushing your feet forward or back. you can probably see how they do it standing in the joy ride presentation.

[carmatic]

One thing I wanted to know is how do you control the gas and breaks for these racing games when you're standing up (and I guess sitting down)?

im thinking that you will use the controller... thats how i would like it, anyway, i do not want to play it like those natal Burnout demos where you hold an imaginary steering wheel like the Budweiser 'designated driver' PSA advertisement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdTT22rTFY0

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

Thread Cleaned

[SimplySchizo]

Ok well I'll try and explain why I like it. Firstly, I actually enjoy playing simple fun games like Wii Sports. I think they're great games to play with anyone. Therefore, if you think these kind of games are shovelware or just bad by definition then no you're never going to like Kinect because like you mentioned the lack of a physical controller means that complex games are never going to work with it. If you had an expectation that this would be possible then obviously you are going to be disappointed. To me Kinect seems like the perfect interface for simple Wii style games and that's why I think it's the best motion controller solution because it does what it needs to be able to well. If you want to play a more complex game use a controller.

I appreciate you actually sharing your thoughts on it. I'm glad you find fun in Wii Sports and this the like. I enjoyed the Tennis and Bowling myself. When I first got my Wii, for the first week I'd say, every other day me and baby moms would stand in front of the big screen and T up! It got old really quick. The games lacked depth. After a while it just felt like a gimmick. I felt there was a lack of support. The in-depth games never arrived. Just kiddie games. Then Zelda came in. What an awesome game I felt. That's exactly what Wii games should've all brought to the table. Never did. So yea, it collected dust for a couple years till I sold it. I never even got to finish Zelda. The type of game that fills this void of a family fun game have been taken up by those like Little Big Planet. Which me and my son (he's 4) pick up every now and then and have a blast playing.

I see alot of people mentioning the Wii in comparison. I think they're completely different ballparks. There's no possible comparison. Which leads to another reason why I felt the MS conference failed. They rushed through all the games (and wack trailers which contained no game) they did show, just to get to the Kinect. Once there, they spent way too much time trying to sell their product to the Wii crowd. IMO, the Wii consumer would never bite cause it's just isn't the same experience. Not even an upgraded one. It's a whole different experience altogether. Kinect lacks versatility in my eyes. It was a complete bore all throughout its showing. Not a single game had the appeal that Wii Sports did. One was just based on two people jumping synchronously. Another was Yoga? That excersice game (this is where I felt they spent tons of time trying to sell their peripheral to the Wii crowd). The rest was just nothing memorable. They weren't fun to watch. I felt like MS alienated their 3rd party partners just to get to their product. In turn what did we get? Devs coming on stage asking people to join them on Sony's floor. Just Wow! I was left speechless when I saw that.

On the Kinect itself; Assuming i'm allowed to post my impressions on it without being called a 'troll' by some <snipped>; It felt limited. The way they demo'd the menu navigation felt slow. Felt as if they were moving in slo-motion to once get to what they wanted to access on the menu, a necessary hover over and pause is required. Why couldnt it recognize a fist and open hand to initiate a button press? Something a Wii/Move motion controller would have no problem doing efficiently. If it were to sense or detect a simply button press gesture it would've been a win here.

Games on rails is what kept coming to mind when i thought of the Kinect. Even iPhone gaming comes to mind. There's just some things that don't work here. People can argue that it could be implemented alongside the 360controller in the future but in the end, it just isn't efficient. The recognition distance is a handicap. No one stands in front of their screen playing any gamepad/controller game. I had to emphasize this for the morons that wanted to bring the Wii & Move into the equation. Then there's one sitting down that's an issue. (most likely to be fixed) The recognition itself was more limited than it let on. Take the boxing demo with homeboy hitting the punching bag for example; It would give him targets there were at the sides of the bag. Surely it had to pick up on a hook motion or some sort of elbow extension from the sides in order to properly register it. Nothing straight up. This problem was easily cloaked by buddy bobbing side to side as he punched. Recognition of the arm movement stuttered during the yoga demo when they crossed the body.

Anyways, I'm simply more a complex player and enjoy as many options available to me as possible. The more options, the more immersed I feel. It's great that technology is improving and letting people in an inch at a time, but till we achieve the Virtuosity experience. It's just not there, yet. :D

Those are just a few of my views on why I fell both the MS conference was an 'epic fail', and Kinect doesn't appeal to me. No one has to agree with me. This is what I've been basically saying all along and classified a troll and fanboy for doing so. I don't take it to the heart as I know the true meaning of the words. ;)

I'd hate to imagine an internet where forums were full of like-minded folk all agreeing on the same things. My apologizes for the 10k Wall of Text Crit!

Edited June 17, 2010 by Anaron

[carmatic]

That's why it doesn't use the RGB camera for gestures and such and such, but the heat/IR cameras.

i have a sneaking suspicion that the two cameras on the Natal bar isnt so it could see depth in stereo, it wouldnt work since they are placed too close to each other... instead one of them is an IR camera while the other is a colour camera, and the reason they are so close together to is to basically act as a single camera, without adding weight and bulk with any splitter optics etc...

if that is really the case then Natal has to reconstruct your body from a flat image, and it will not sense any depth at all... so you run into problems like this:

is the figure spinning to the left or to the right?

[Unrealistic]

i have a sneaking suspicion that the two cameras on the Natal bar isnt so it could see depth in stereo, it wouldnt work since they are placed too close to each other... instead one of them is an IR camera while the other is a colour camera, and the reason they are so close together to is to basically act as a single camera, without adding weight and bulk with any splitter optics etc...

if that is really the case then Natal has to reconstruct your body from a flat image, and it will not sense any depth at all... so you run into problems like this:

is the figure spinning to the left or to the right?

It's spinning to the right to me. I can't see it the other way.

Regardless, doesn't Kinect have three cameras?

The two on the right might be what you are talking about, but they could be combined with the camera on the left to make the 3D.

[NateB1]

Natal has one RGB camera, one IR camera and one IR transmitter. The transmitter sends IR pulses, and the IR camera uses those pulses and how fast they return to the camera to determine a 3D depth image of the person - kind of like SONAR or RADAR.

[carmatic]

It's spinning to the right to me. I can't see it the other way.

Regardless, doesn't Kinect have three cameras?

The two on the right might be what you are talking about, but they could be combined with the camera on the left to make the 3D.

ahh i was thinking about this

yes it does look from the picture like you have 2 cameras with more reflective lenses than the other camera

Natal has one RGB camera, one IR camera and one IR transmitter. The transmitter sends IR pulses, and the IR camera uses those pulses and how fast they return to the camera to determine a 3D depth image of the person - kind of like SONAR or RADAR.

that's interesting, i never thought that you could measure distances as short as a living room by timing light reflections... much less the space taken up by a person?

i think what is more likely is that its using some other effect of light to measure depth

[carmatic]

it works by a technique called 'light coding' , the best picture i could find so far which explains how it works is this

anyone can make anything out of it?

also,

[Ironman273]

My Two Favorite Xbox Kinect Experiences So Far

I've played a bunch of controller-free Kinect games (and watched Crecente dance through one!). Some are cool, some familiar. Some are a little broken. But two bits that I've experienced were spectacular teases about how Kinect can excel.

1) The Angle Of My Arm: My favorite Kinect game of the handful I have tried is Ubisoft's workout program Your Shape: Fitness Evolved. It's not that I crave fitness programs, but that I was smitten byhow the Kinect, well, connected me to this game. Like other Kinect games and programs, it uses the new Xbox 360 sensor array to detect my presence in front of the TV and track movements of my body. Unlike many of them, it shows me a version of myself on my TV. During a demo of the game earlier this week, I appeared on a TV as an orange silhouette that was shaped, in real-time, to match the contours of my body and clothing.

Almost instantly, Your Shape started measuring me. It checked my height and displayed that number near my silhouette's head. I saw a number appear near my hand and realized it was showing me how many inches my hands was above the floor. I raised my hand and watched the number change. As I extended my arm out from my side I saw a new number that indicated the angle defined by my arm and body.

In my 33 years on this planet, I've been told by workout instructors and doctors and who knows who else to hold my arm out at a 90-degree angle or some other measurement. I've always just guessed, assuming we could be content with our inability to easily know if I had followed directions to the perfect degree. Ubisoft's fitness game, however, can reveal the numbers. It shows the math and displays some stats that have never appeared near my body but like age or weight are relevant to my physical form. I liked that a lot. It felt Star Trek. It's as if something that has always been quantifiable ? some aspect determined by my body and the way I move ? finally can be measured. And I can see it. That, thanks to Kinect, is a great effect.

(Note: The screenshot above shows something from the game similar to what I've described, but what I'm writing about was more dynamic... and more orange.)

2) Barge-In, Barge-Out Multiplayer: The people who make the Forza games for the Xbox 360 have been experimenting with Kinect. They want to release some sort of Kinect experiences/games/modes in the future. One of the things they showed here at E3 was a driving challenge that has one player at a time standing in front of their TV, arms held out, steering a car down a highway. Acceleration and braking are automatic. You just rock your hands to steer, as if you were holding a steering wheel. The goal in this challenge mode is to pass as many cars on the road as possible before a timer expires. Once you're out of time, you get a score and can start it again.

The nice things about the Forza passing demo are that it is simple, fun and, best of all, easy to jump in and out of in a party situation. Simulating that kind of gathering during a demo of the Forza Kinect experiences earlier this week, the developers were able to let me try the passing game, then step off and have someone else take their spin at it. Kinect recognizes new players in an eye-blink, without any noticeable pause to recalibrate. It finds the new player's hands and just works. These kinds of party-friendly pass around games often require a transfer of a controller. I pass you the Xbox 360 gamepad or you take off the Rock Band guitar and I strap it over my shoulder. This Forza passing demo showed how Kinect can beat that. We're talking about an experience that is as simple as me stepping away and you stepping in. That is how I'd like to play games at a party, the situation where I think I'd be most interested in "controller-free gaming."

***There were some other interesting Kinect experiences. I liked swiping my hand to navigate the Xbox 360 dashboard and got a kick out of counter-steering in Joy Ride using my hands and hips to turn against a power-slide. The standouts were the two features I mentioned above. Of the half of the Kinect line-up I tried, those were my favorites.

Look for more Kinect impressions from the Kotaku team as E3 2010 rolls on.

Source: Kotaku

[NateB1]

ahh i was thinking about this

yes it does look from the picture like you have 2 cameras with more reflective lenses than the other camera

that's interesting, i never thought that you could measure distances as short as a living room by timing light reflections... much less the space taken up by a person?

i think what is more likely is that its using some other effect of light to measure depth

Doing some more digging, I'm 99.9% sure this is the technique Kinect uses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-of-flight_camera

[Xoligy]

Dunno it this has been posted yet but i will SO be doing this to pee people off!

The Xbox 360 Kinect has a rather neat voice-control feature. It lets you switch TV channels, pause games, and do just about everything you'd normally do with a remote control. Including ****ing off your friends.

Our mischievous pals at Kotaku noticed that the Kinect's voice-control feature doesn't appear to differentiate between voices. This means that it'll take a command from any person within microphone range.

It also means that you can stroll through your friend's living room and mutter "Xbox...pause" during a critical moment. [Kotaku]

Source: http://gizmodo.com/5565595/how-to-****-off-an-xbox-360-kinect-user

[HawkMan]

If you look at the presentation slide Ms did for the Kinect launch, they marked off the cameras, the center camera is an RGB camera, the other two are the depth perception (IR I suspect, since IR waves can be used for depth due to some color changign thing with distance) stereoscopic cameras.

The slide is on one of the sites that had pictures of the final natal and the new 360.

Also for Schiz-o

The recognition distance is a handicap. No one stands in front of their screen playing any gamepad/controller game.

Since when was 4-5 meters right in front of your TV ? or are we suddenly now forgetting when MS released the distance you could use and some site mistranslated it into needed to claer a 4-5 meter lkong and 4 meter wide area in front of the TV, and everyone flamed because noone had that big living rooms ?

[Spookie]

Jesus, if that's true, talk about a ****ing F-A-I-L. Damn, I hope that isn't true.

If so it explains why no hardcore games have picked it up to augment their experience. I can't imagine anyone playing gears/halo/MW2/BC2/Bromance Shooter 4 - COME AT ME BRO KINFE UR FACE II standing up for 4 hours. :p

edit: Unrelated but another quality .gif

[George P Global Moderator]

The thing is months away and probably still going to be worked on till a month before it's release date I bet. I expect the voice recognition will have a option to match your pattern so that it will only take commands from the user who's profile is logged in at the time. It's a bit more tricky but doable I figure.

[Jimmy0]

On the issue of not being able to sit down and use Kinect:

"Guys, we're still developing Kinect. I've no idea what ign wrote and am not contradicting. Just saying ive used menus sitting. Calm down. :)"

[Spookie]

On the issue of not being able to sit down and use Kinect:

"Guys, we're still developing Kinect. I've no idea what ign wrote and am not contradicting. Just saying ive used menus sitting. Calm down. :)"

He's not flat out denying it (well he can't there has been multiple reports now). Sounds like it's something they are trying to fix though. :/

[Hedon]

On the issue of not being able to sit down and use Kinect:

"Guys, we're still developing Kinect. I've no idea what ign wrote and am not contradicting. Just saying ive used menus sitting. Calm down. :)"

http://twitter.com/S...tus/16343636822

Great post, thanks for the official confirmation from Microsoft. Now I wonder what the boys will complain about?