12 Ways Consoles Are Hurting PC Gaming

[Athernar]

And the same can be said vice-versa.

Oh?

Consoles are limited in Hardware only. Software is never limited, especially not in this day and age with ease of distributing new versions and patches. While it may have your "bastardized" version of Direct3D the console doesn't need to have more than it currently does. The fact the console can run 16-24 player games with thousands of particle effects, twenty or thirty AI on screen at the same time as well as interactive objects such as vehicles and then on top of that a layered skybox with HDR lighting with 5 year old hardware and roughly 768MB of total RAM? Even if it is at some weird resolution that is just sub-HD that is still impressive. Most PC games I see have nowhere near that kind of performance because they are designed for players who enjoy running stuff at 1080p with 60-120fps. Insane standards that destroy gameplay features because PC games are obsessed with framerate and resolution. My five year old 360 can run some of the top-of-line games today smoothly and cleanly while my PC (3 years old) has had to start moving down to medium settings, run without AA or sometimes even HDR. And my computer was $300 MORE than my console, not including keyboard and mouse.

You clearly don't understand how graphics APIs function, you're just naming various effects which is completely meaningless. It's not about perfomance, it's about support and featuresets.

[Dermot]

There are many factors to Console and PC gaming that most never take into consideration.

1) The Console market is more wide spread, lot more age ranges, they try to cater for all, not just the grumpy geeks that want to sleep at the PC with neon lights.

2) The PC has advantages, yes, Upgrading for one, and the fact FPS games are ideally suited to keyboard+mouse configuration (ie: Wolfenstein 3d and Doom.)

3) Piracy is ripe on PC, sales for PC games just don't go near consoles in todays market, money talks and most PC related sales come from subscriptions and web based games now.

4) PC gamers make themselves out to be the "elite gamers" because they use a keyboard and mouse, yet only buy the "block busters" killing most small studios trying to enter PC market.

5) Most PC gamers have that type A personality that leads you to believe they take most games way too serious, leading to the "it's only a game, chill out, oh they banned me from their server".

6) PC gaming would get better if PC gamers opened more instead of locking themselves in clan servers, mocking everyone else and thinking they are better than everyone else.

7) Games for windows had a promising idea, cross platform gaming, some games were good, some not so good, Steam is good but a lot of crap PC games.

Personally speaking, I'd rather my kids playing on a console then on a PC, that could open them up to a whole new other line of things i wouldn't want them on.

[Emn1ty]

You clearly don't understand how graphics APIs function, you're just naming various effects which is completely meaningless. It's not about perfomance, it's about support and featuresets.

So then tell me how this lack of proper API's hurts the games. And I don't know what you mean by the 360 being unable to use tessellation. If I am seeing correctly only DX11 supports Tessellation and I've only seen maybe four or five games in the past year or so actually support DX11 feature sets. Look at how small the DX11 game list is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_11_support . And you're dissing the 360 for not supporting something that only a handful of games do and those that are on that list are extremely recent?

[DirtyLarry Veteran]

Whatever floats ones boat is what I say. Choose what platorm, or platforms, that you prefer. At the end of the day, gaming is gaming. I make a decent living, I enjoy playing games, so I own a PC, a pretty decent one at that, the 360, the PS3, and even the Wii. :laugh:

Luckily, I do not have to choose one platform over the other. If for some reason I ever did, then I would go PC. It is pretty simple why I would. Besides the obvious fact as pointed out by my custom made Avatar by myself that I way prefer the Keyboard and Mouse for my chosen favorite genre of games, and that is FPS's, besides that fact, as it has already been pointed out, a PC is used for much, much more then just gaming. Yes, obviously it costs more once you start adding gaming quality components, but I would argue it does not cost all that much more to add those gaming components than either of the consoles cost at their launch. Never-mind the fact that with consoles, you almost always have to buy some kind of accessories and or a service like Live. So by the end of the day, it really is not that much of a difference in price if you choose one platform over the other, assuming you would have spent some kind of money towards a decent PC and not just a bargain basement one. Which considering the target audience of Neowin, I would say most of us here do have better computers then the average computer owner. Perhaps I am wrong, but I do not really think I am.

And I really am not sure why so many people claim to have so many issues with playing games. Literally the one and only issue I have had, and it has been a recurring one, is no SLi support at launch. And to remedy that I went ahead and learned how to apply my own SLi profiles, so even that issue has not been an issue anymore. Other than that, I cannot remember the last time I had a game that was unplayable. Not even close. And all I do is stay on top of my drivers, make sure I have the latest, and I do not even do that religiously anymore. So really not sure where all of that is coming from whatsoever.

My main reason for playing on the current generation consoles is I work in front of a computer all day, so the last thing I want to do is continue sitting in front of a computer to play games. When I was younger I had no issues doing that, but especially when I started developing wrist issues from working on the computer, I actually HAD to switch over to consoles as a result.

The thing is though, and it is something I never got TBH, I am not sure why or how it ever turned into this whole console vs PC gaming. Consoles have always existed as far as I can remember. In fact I technically had my first console, the Atari, WAY before I ever had a computer. So it is not like it was something foreign to me. I have literally owned almost every single console known to man since the advent of consoles themselves. About the only console I did not own was the Jaguar. Other then that, at some point I have owned, borrowed, or traded every console ever made, so to me it is not even like console gaming is something new or foreign, so I do not view it, nor have I ever viewed it, as replacing PC gaming. It was, just as it always has been, just another option to game on. Now obviously consoles with this generation have come the closest they have ever gotten to providing the power of a PC, even if it was just for a few fleeting moments, so perhaps that is why there is now the whole console vs PC mentality, but to me, consoles have been around forever, so I never quite saw it that way.

Now with all of that said, I am definitely not happy about the fact that because of the current generation of consoles PC development has without a doubt taken a few steps backwards. Whether it is the fact games are ported from console to PC, not the other way around, or the fact that UI's are horrible on the PC, or the fact that things like the mod community and such things as dedicated servers are now unfortunately a dying breed, there is no doubt that consoles have indeed had an adverse effect on gaming. But the truth of the matter is I am now old enough now to sit back and look at the bigger picture of things (and not just gaming, all things in life). Because I am able to do this about most everything, I do realize that developers need to make money in order to stay in business. And right now consoles are where the real money is at. Do I wish things were different? Sure I do. But at the end of the day, I am not going to lose any sleep over it. And please realize, I do not mean to offend anyone that does take this particular topic to heart and has passion for the whole topic, but the way I see it, it is what it is. All I can do as an individual is go ahead and actually purchase games on the PC and support development on the PC by doing so. Hopefully that lets developers know that there is indeed still an audience who games on the PC, who when has the choice to do so will choose the PC over consoles, so perhaps one day that will mean we will see a shift back towards PC gaming. In a way I think that is already happening with a developer like DICE saying the lead platform for BF3 is indeed the PC. Whether that winds up being full true is yet to be seen, but hopefully it will be, and hopefully it will let other developers know it is okay to make the PC the lead platform once again.

So the moral of the story is if you want to support PC gaming strictly, make sure you buy Battlefield 3 later this year. :laugh:

[Nihilus]

I agree that gaming has taken a slight turn downhill since consoles truly became prevalent, but it's truly unavoidable. Few people have the expertise to put together decent rigs, and even fewer will bother to pay the extortionate amounts for sub-par pre-built "gaming" PCs.

The main issue I have is with the slow adoption of new tech by games developers, cannot wait for the next-gen consoles myself. Ironically only so I can finally see current-generation graphics and features in PC games. I think that'll be when I get round to building my next gaming rig :D

lets see....

Drop $300 for a PS3 and $65 for Crysis 2?

Build up a system that will range $1200 and pray it runs at medium settings with decent framerates....

just an example

Pretty sure you can build a system that will run Crysis 2 on max settings for less than $1200. Not to mention the fact that the PS3 can't run it on "max" settings.

So then tell me how this lack of proper API's hurts the games. And I don't know what you mean by the 360 being unable to use tessellation. If I am seeing correctly on DX11 supports Tessellation and I've only seen maybe four or five games in the past year or so actually support DX11 feature sets. Look at how small the DX11 game list is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_11_support . And you're dissing the 360 for not supporting something that only a handful of games do and those that are on that list are extremely recent?

Wasn't one of the main points of this article that consoles are slowing down games developers from embracing new technologies? Since they're designing the majority of them for 5 year old mid-low end market hardware.

Pretty sure the low number of games that support DX11 is evidence of that. If you look at that list of games you linked to all of them are ones with a very large PC fan base, it makes sense that most cross platform developers aren't bothering with DX11 because it's simply not cost effective. Not when the majority of their games will played on ancient hardware.

[Emn1ty]

Wasn't one of the main points of this article that consoles are slowing down games developers from embracing new technologies? Since they're designing the majority of them for 5 year old mid-low end market hardware.

Pretty sure the low number of games that support DX11 is evidence of that. If you look at that list of games you linked to all of them are ones with a very large PC fan base, it makes sense that most cross platform developers aren't bothering with DX11 because it's simply not cost effective. Not when the majority of their games will played on ancient hardware.

No, its because the market penetration of DX11 is extremely small so games don't support it. Its not about consoles but PC's as well. Most of the PC's I'm around don't support it and since more people these days buy laptops it is even more apparent why DX11 isn't in so many games. If more PC gamers had it more games would support it.

PS: AvP, BC2, Dirt 2, Dragon Age II, Homefront, Lost Planet 2, HAWX 2, and Metro 2033 are all multiplatform and they are all on that list. So I don't think it is the consoles who are keeping them from using DX11 and up-to-date API's.

[DirtyLarry Veteran]

There are many factors to Console and PC gaming that most never take into consideration.

1) The Console market is more wide spread, lot more age ranges, they try to cater for all, not just the grumpy geeks that want to sleep at the PC with neon lights.

2) The PC has advantages, yes, Upgrading for one, and the fact FPS games are ideally suited to keyboard+mouse configuration (ie: Wolfenstein 3d and Doom.)

3) Piracy is ripe on PC, sales for PC games just don't go near consoles in todays market, money talks and most PC related sales come from subscriptions and web based games now.

4) PC gamers make themselves out to be the "elite gamers" because they use a keyboard and mouse, yet only buy the "block busters" killing most small studios trying to enter PC market.

5) Most PC gamers have that type A personality that leads you to believe they take most games way too serious, leading to the "it's only a game, chill out, oh they banned me from their server".

6) PC gaming would get better if PC gamers opened more instead of locking themselves in clan servers, mocking everyone else and thinking they are better than everyone else.

7) Games for windows had a promising idea, cross platform gaming, some games were good, some not so good, Steam is good but a lot of crap PC games.

Personally speaking, I'd rather my kids playing on a console then on a PC, that could open them up to a whole new other line of things i wouldn't want them on.

I could probably counter every point you make, but let me just address the ones that really stick out to me...

4) Really? So how to you explain a game like Minecraft or something like the Humble Bundle? There is no doubt in my mind the PC gaming community supports smaller developers way, way more then console gamers. Like not even a contest. For example, most 360 gamers on Live do not even know about the Indie Games Channel on XBox Live., and MS does not do all that much to market it either

5) Some of the most laid back gaming experiences I have ever had have been on the PC. Of course there are those people that take it seriously, but I have had way more "fun sessions" on the PC then I have ever had on consoles, assuming we are talking about playing with complete strangers.

6) Because a lot of my friends are console only gamers these days, and I still play on the PC, I tend to play most MP games on the PC lone wolf, meaning by myself, solo. I have as a result joined a few clan servers here and there. I can sincerely say only 1 or 2 out of a whole, whole lot, acted like elitist clan idiots. Most were completely inviting, and there were more then a few that by after a few rounds, asked if I had any interest in joining their clans. So I think you are just falling for a stereotype of that elitist clan, when for the most part a clan is just a group of strangers that are tired of being lone wolfs who decide to play with a cool group of other strangers. Again, yes, there are some clans that take things way to serious, but they are easily avoided.

7) Steam has a lot of "crap" games as you put it. Does that not completely contradict what you said with your #4 point? Cause I am assuming what you are labeling as "crap games" are games that are just not that big and have a huge audience. So the fact Steam offers those "crap games" just reinforces the fact that not only do PC gamers support smaller developers, but these smaller developers have a great platform such as Steam which allows them to get their game seen by millions and millions of gamers.

But I get the feeling I just wasted my time trying to counter your points, as you seem pretty set on your opinion, but figured why not.

[rajputwarrior]

maybe this is true, but if it wasn't for consoles, crysis 2 wouldn't have been optimized so well compared to the last iteration of the series. so it has its good things too ;)

[Duality]

Re: graphics APIs, specifically DirectX 11 - if you implement effects that you can use in DX9 using the DX11 api, performance is improved. The only reason we are stuck on DirectX9 at all apart from offering XP support, is because of consoles, specifically the 360.

[PGHammer]

I do hate console ports. More and more games coming out on the PC are crippled versions because they're designed to run on consoles. Mafia II's low resolution textures spring to mind.

The problem is not console ports themselves - it's that most console ports manage to get the display defaults absolutely wrong!

Seriously - most folks don't tweak from the defaults for a game because they have better hardware; it's because the default settings look like crap. (While consoles have far less to tweak than PCs, they also have the same problems with bad default in-game settings; if anything, the PS3 and XB360 have it worse than the PS2 and original Xbox.)

Crysis 2 is arguably the *only* console port in the last decade to nail the default settings across the board (both consoles *and* equivalent PCs).

Burnout Paradise (another console port) has the problem bass-ackwards from most ports - dial the detail and resolution up (consoles can't do that) and it looks *better*. (Amusingly, that is not true with HP2010, the next game from the same developer, which is also multiplatform.)

If a multiplatform has issues at 720p on a PC, you can certainly bet that since that is the typical default for consoles, it will have issues there also. (Despite the PS3's claims of 1080p, how many non-exclusive titles actually go there?)

Regardless of whether a game is exclusive to one platform or not, screwing up the default settings means that the development cycle didn't do it's job.

[Azies]

Ugh.. after seeing that Games for Windows Live video.. I think I'll just buy a Mac.

Another thing, can't we have a discussion where the geeks aren't constantly disgruntled and border-line flaming a guy with an opinion by telling him he's wrong constantly?

Here are the facts, Consoles are better than PCs for gaming, they have a lower entry level, less maintenance, broader gender, and age appeal, and again, they don't cost a fortune, sure the graphics aren't as good as $800 PCs, but this is a $300 system you're talking about.

Although I would take what I say with a grain of salt, I used to be a big gamer way back when, but I stopped, it's not as appealing for me anymore. I mostly sit in front of my laptop. Also the "OMG LOL ROFL ROXORZ UR BOXORZ LOL PWNED LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" and immature names like "Donkey Balls" and "USCKMYDCK", and those "OMG I MUST PLAY THIS 24/7 AND MAKE IT MY CAREER!" and the whole e-gangstas thing killed PC gaming for me, I'd much rather go skinny dipping in Piranha infested waters with a head wound than sit through one hour of online PC Gaming.

[Nihilus]

Ugh.. after seeing that Games for Windows Live video.. I think I'll just buy a Mac.

Another thing, can't we have a discussion where the geeks aren't constantly disgruntled and border-line flaming a guy with an opinion by telling him he's wrong constantly?

Here are the facts, Consoles are better than PCs for gaming, they have a lower entry level, less maintenance, broader gender, and age appeal, and again, they don't cost a fortune, sure the graphics aren't as good as $800 PCs, but this is a $300 system you're talking about.

Well if the graphics aren't as good, and the controls are worse at least for FPS games (not to mention RTS/RPG), then surely it isn't better for gaming? :D

Basically you mean it's cheaper? :p

As for buying a Mac, you'll choose no games over badly ported games?

[Azies]

Well if the graphics aren't as good, and the controls are worse at least for FPS games (not to mention RTS/RPG), then surely it isn't better for gaming? :D

Basically you mean it's cheaper? :p

As for buying a Mac, you'll choose no games over badly ported games?

No, it's better for the average consumer and 10 year old Timmy who wants to tea bag a complete stranger whilst looking like Master Chief, and the soccer moms who think they can get a fitness workout by playing WiiSports and WiiFit. As for buying a Mac, hell yes, I'd choose no games over badly ported games. :p

Oh you mean graphics, most people nowadays don't know any better.

[Dermot]

I could probably counter every point you make, but let me just address the ones that really stick out to me...

4) Really? So how to you explain a game like Minecraft or something like the Humble Bundle? There is no doubt in my mind the PC gaming community supports smaller developers way, way more then console gamers. Like not even a contest. For example, most 360 gamers on Live do not even know about the Indie Games Channel on XBox Live., and MS does not do all that much to market it either

5) Some of the most laid back gaming experiences I have ever had have been on the PC. Of course there are those people that take it seriously, but I have had way more "fun sessions" on the PC then I have ever had on consoles, assuming we are talking about playing with complete strangers.

6) Because a lot of my friends are console only gamers these days, and I still play on the PC, I tend to play most MP games on the PC lone wolf, meaning by myself, solo. I have as a result joined a few clan servers here and there. I can sincerely say only 1 or 2 out of a whole, whole lot, acted like elitist clan idiots. Most were completely inviting, and there were more then a few that by after a few rounds, asked if I had any interest in joining their clans. So I think you are just falling for a stereotype of that elitist clan, when for the most part a clan is just a group of strangers that are tired of being lone wolfs who decide to play with a cool group of other strangers. Again, yes, there are some clans that take things way to serious, but they are easily avoided.

7) Steam has a lot of "crap" games as you put it. Does that not completely contradict what you said with your #4 point? Cause I am assuming what you are labeling as "crap games" are games that are just not that big and have a huge audience. So the fact Steam offers those "crap games" just reinforces the fact that not only do PC gamers support smaller developers, but these smaller developers have a great platform such as Steam which allows them to get their game seen by millions and millions of gamers.

But I get the feeling I just wasted my time trying to counter your points, as you seem pretty set on your opinion, but figured why not.

Nah I'm not set on anything, i play both consoles and PC games, I'm not a fanboy or attack individuals users based on their choice of gaming apparatus.

My point about steam is the fact it has a lot of bad games, meaning low budget, badly developed, low grade games (lot of games from 1 quid to 5.

Steam though, to me was one of the best things to happen for PC gamers though, without it the PC gaming market would be even worse.

I congratulate valve for their effort, but that's about it, nobody else really cares, PC gamers come out of the woodwork when something is mentioned good for consoles then go hide again when they've got their way and their lollipops are put back into their mouths.

Developers can easily make game editions for the PC, DICE did for Battlefield 2 Bad company 2, whats stopping the rest from adding a frame unlock, adding anti aliasing tweaks, direct x features, just having them suppressed on console code or even having a couple of developers work off the game development triage and forum out to a PC UI, the game is made on the PC, No matter the platform it's all about money and there just isn't as much win for the developer/publisher in PC.

If the PC users were looked after or had a big enough share in the market to warrant more progress then I'm sure they will change their routines, Microsoft mentioned backing PC gaming more and all i seen was angry PC users saying how crap Microsoft are and how they ruin games.

Dice is doubling the number of online players for the PC version of the upcoming Battlefield 3, Are dice and valve the only developers that care about the PC platform?

The fact that there are a lot of console gamers in the world, doesn't mean the PC gaming situation need change, it's like the other consoles, they all fight for place in the market, PC is no different, Why can't it fight in that lineup?

Hey at least the Xbox 360 control pad works great on the PC...

[Azies]

I love the PC, I've been a huge PC nut for a while, but I'm more so a PC enthusiast, than a PC Gaming Enthusiast. I bought an Asus gaming laptop about a year or two ago, and I've been finding myself using it for browsing the web. I spent a flat out $1,000 USD, and I don't regret it. I had a 360, it died, I loved it, trying to get it again, I had a PS3 and it bored the HELL out of me, and I sold it, I have a Wii and I'm in love with it, not because of gimicky motion sensor controls, but the Wii Virtual Console, call me old fashioned, but I prefer Super Famicom, Mega Drive and Nintendo 64 titles over the newer ones that are currently out today.... but I must admit.. I love Super Mario Galaxy 2.. and Twilight Princess.. and Epic Mickey.. and I even liked Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles The Crystal Bearers, despite it the fact that it's SO dumbed down.. :(

Who here.. remembers playing a game of Diablo (1 OR 2), or going on Microsoft's zone.msn.com, and playing games of Age of Empires 1 and 2, and Ants, who here remembers Ants? The little RTS that had you controlling a team of ants.

[Athernar]

So then tell me how this lack of proper API's hurts the games. And I don't know what you mean by the 360 being unable to use tessellation. If I am seeing correctly only DX11 supports Tessellation and I've only seen maybe four or five games in the past year or so actually support DX11 feature sets. Look at how small the DX11 game list is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_11_support . And you're dissing the 360 for not supporting something that only a handful of games do and those that are on that list are extremely recent?

Lack of updated APIs.

Tesselation is merely an example, go educate yourself about graphics APIs and what they are + how they work; there is so much more at play than you think.

[Emn1ty]

Lack of updated APIs.

Tesselation is merely an example, go educate yourself about graphics APIs and what they are + how they work; there is so much more at play than you think.

Its no different than having an old GPU in a PC is it? Which is already what PC developers have to develop for anyways. I still don't get why this is specific to a console. If it is a mere issue with "updating" old drivers and software within the GPU I doubt that the 360 is incapable of doing so within firmware updates. Regardless of what "more" there is you seem to be being deliberately vague.

[carmatic]

i think what it boils down to is you have 2 types of people , pc gamers and everyone else ... its not just gamers and non gamers, or console gamers or pc gamers.... because consoles are so accessible, while gaming on the pc is a more specialized and individualistic experience, you have something thats roughly analogous to a person using internet explorer, and a person using firefox with a ton of add ons

console gamers are the common laypeople who just play video games, while pc gamers are the enthusiasts who play games the way they want to play, and if that is not possible in the beginning, they achieve it through time and effort i.e. mods for games

when i pay 1000 bucks for my computer, i am paying for more than games, i am paying for the experience of pc gaming ...

[Athernar]

Its no different than having an old GPU in a PC is it? Which is already what PC developers have to develop for anyways. I still don't get why this is specific to a console. If it is a mere issue with "updating" old drivers and software within the GPU I doubt that the 360 is incapable of doing so within firmware updates. Regardless of what "more" there is you seem to be being deliberately vague.

Not always, a handful of the features in Direct3D 11 are backwards compatible; API-level multithreading for instance will work on Direct3D 10 hardware.

While console hardware might have the computational ability to execute an effect, if the underlying API doesn't support it then you're being held back. MSAA with deferred renderers is a prime example of this.

[Emn1ty]

Not always, a handful of the features in Direct3D 11 are backwards compatible; API-level multithreading for instance will work on Direct3D 10 hardware.

While console hardware might have the computational ability to execute an effect, if the underlying API doesn't support it then you're being held back. MSAA with deferred renderers is a prime example of this.

Personally I could care less about any form of AA.

[HawkMan]

There is a difference between simplification / streamlining and "dumbing down". Many high-level skillsets simply do not work on a console due to the control scheme.

That's not really true, Cosnoles aren't the cause of the so called dumbing down. the fact that the gaming audience has had a massive explosion is. there's 10-100 times as many gamers today as there was back in the days. and they want to sell games to all these. BUT the hardcore gamers, the ones that played Rainbow 6, they're not much bigger, the news ones they don't want to manage hundreds of control schemes, plan an attack longer than doing the attack, they just want to go in, hit a button to shoot and another button to duck. more complicated than that and they look another way. Whether they play on computer or console.

In fact dumbing down has affected consoles as much as computers, we used to get console games that where as advanced, Xbox had rainbow 6 with a detailed control scheme and full planning set up. then came Vegas, Fable, which is still a great game, has been gradually dumbed down for every game, and in the latest you can't even chose what gestures to use when interfacing with the NPC's, it's just happy gesture, bad gesture and neutral...

it's just not worth it makign games for us anymore. our games are more complicated to make, requiring more time and developers, and we're just a fraction of the gaming audience, We're simply not worth it. As the developers of F/A18 said, money can be made on realistic flight sims, but it takes to long and it's to little money, when for a lot less work, they can makes 100-1000's times more.

[Emn1ty]

That's not really true, Cosnoles aren't the cause of the so called dumbing down. the fact that the gaming audience has had a massive explosion is. there's 10-100 times as many gamers today as there was back in the days. and they want to sell games to all these. BUT the hardcore gamers, the ones that played Rainbow 6, they're not much bigger, the news ones they don't want to manage hundreds of control schemes, plan an attack longer than doing the attack, they just want to go in, hit a button to shoot and another button to duck. more complicated than that and they look another way. Whether they play on computer or console.

In fact dumbing down has affected consoles as much as computers, we used to get console games that where as advanced, Xbox had rainbow 6 with a detailed control scheme and full planning set up. then came Vegas, Fable, which is still a great game, has been gradually dumbed down for every game, and in the latest you can't even chose what gestures to use when interfacing with the NPC's, it's just happy gesture, bad gesture and neutral...

it's just not worth it makign games for us anymore. our games are more complicated to make, requiring more time and developers, and we're just a fraction of the gaming audience, We're simply not worth it. As the developers of F/A18 said, money can be made on realistic flight sims, but it takes to long and it's to little money, when for a lot less work, they can makes 100-1000's times more.

Especially since developers used to work off their own funds from game sales and could continue to work/support games as long as they desired. These days however everyone is under the wing of publisher or parent company and therefore they can no longer call the shots. There are a very few developers these days that are given the privelage (Valve, Bungie, Blizzard, Square... not sure if there really are any others). Games have become commercialized. It has become more about the money to be made rather than dedication to a fanbase. The majority of gamers no longer sit alongside the developers every step of the way to creating a game and support them. They buy a game the day it releases based on how it looks and then move to the next big thing right afterwards without a second thought about who made what or how much they put into it. Community love only gets you so far these days, so we see developers that look at the lowest common denominator and build for that so they can move onto the next title and fulfill that need for the current generation gamer.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

That's not really true, Cosnoles aren't the cause of the so called dumbing down. the fact that the gaming audience has had a massive explosion is. there's 10-100 times as many gamers today as there was back in the days. and they want to sell games to all these. BUT the hardcore gamers, the ones that played Rainbow 6, they're not much bigger, the news ones they don't want to manage hundreds of control schemes, plan an attack longer than doing the attack, they just want to go in, hit a button to shoot and another button to duck. more complicated than that and they look another way. Whether they play on computer or console.

In fact dumbing down has affected consoles as much as computers, we used to get console games that where as advanced, Xbox had rainbow 6 with a detailed control scheme and full planning set up. then came Vegas, Fable, which is still a great game, has been gradually dumbed down for every game, and in the latest you can't even chose what gestures to use when interfacing with the NPC's, it's just happy gesture, bad gesture and neutral...

it's just not worth it makign games for us anymore. our games are more complicated to make, requiring more time and developers, and we're just a fraction of the gaming audience, We're simply not worth it. As the developers of F/A18 said, money can be made on realistic flight sims, but it takes to long and it's to little money, when for a lot less work, they can makes 100-1000's times more.

You bring up a good point, HawkMan. Hardcore gamers are a dying breed. The unfortunate thing is that the action-hungry crowd is growing while the hardcore crowd is barely maintaining its numbers. I don't think it's affecting PC gaming as much as it's affecting console gaming. On the PC side, you'll always have games that appeal to the hardcore crowd. On the console side, you get sequels that are simpler than their predecessors for the sake of "appealing to a wider audience".

Another thing that no one mentioned is consistency. A lot of developers want to deliver a consistent experience for their multi-platform games. They don't want one platform (e.g. PC) to be noticeably better than another platform (e.g. consoles) in anything but image quality. And sometimes, they want it to look the same in terms of image quality. I remember reading an article about the PC version of Crysis 2 deliberately lacking certain graphical features that would set it apart from the console versions.

Anyway, I hope the next generation of consoles are released within 2 years. The quicker they can get them to store shelves, the quicker they can raise the bar for the "lowest common denominator".

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

i think what it boils down to is you have 2 types of people , pc gamers and everyone else ... its not just gamers and non gamers, or console gamers or pc gamers.... because consoles are so accessible, while gaming on the pc is a more specialized and individualistic experience, you have something thats roughly analogous to a person using internet explorer, and a person using firefox with a ton of add ons

console gamers are the common laypeople who just play video games, while pc gamers are the enthusiasts who play games the way they want to play, and if that is not possible in the beginning, they achieve it through time and effort i.e. mods for games

when i pay 1000 bucks for my computer, i am paying for more than games, i am paying for the experience of pc gaming ...

While all of that is indeed true, the point still remains that the consoles/console owners are not the people for PC owners to set their targets on. That's unjust and unfair. It's the developers who decide how much time, effort and money to put into PC versions of games.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

While all of that is indeed true, the point still remains that the consoles/console owners are not the people for PC owners to set their targets on. That's unjust and unfair. It's the developers who decide how much time, effort and money to put into PC versions of games.

Exactly. People shouldn't blame console gamers for being who they are just as people shouldn't blame PC gamers for wanting features they're accustomed to. The blame should be on developers and publishers for releasing poor quality games.