I don't know who apple is marketing to anymore

[Phixion]

Please read and learn:

Apple are primarily a hardware company, they make most of their money on hardware which means the cost of the OS is subsidised by the hardware you by which means cheap OS prices.

Microsoft are primarily a software company, they make most of their money on software and they dont make or sell computers which is why the cost of the software is high.

As for lack of applications go cry to the EU, Microsoft arent allowed to bundle all that stuff in with the OS because they have a monopoly and is considered anti competitive.

Which is exactly what I was saying in the first place? The EU laws go someway to explaining the lack of applications in Windows but c'mon, get real, even prior to that poopstorm Windows had never been packed with the Software packages Mac OS gets.

Apple get the majority of components from other companies, they simply come up with great designs and put everything together.

Oh and thanks for the info about Microsoft not making computers... I wondered why I couldn't find one when I was wondering around PC World... /sarcasm

[threetonesun]

Please read and learn:

Apple are primarily a hardware company, they make most of their money on hardware which means the cost of the OS is subsidised by the hardware you by which means cheap OS prices.

Microsoft are primarily a software company, they make most of their money on software and they dont make or sell computers which is why the cost of the software is high.

As for lack of applications go cry to the EU, Microsoft arent allowed to bundle all that stuff in with the OS because they have a monopoly and is considered anti competitive.

Apple is a software company, just like Microsoft. Apple can now subsidize their OS with the App Store. Don't be surprised if Windows 8 is cheaper too.

Do they make money off of hardware? Sure, just like Microsoft does when it sells an Xbox. They can't be as big as they are and be completely hardware independent, but they're both primarily software companies.

[Digitalx]

rather then spark an interest in maybe buying a macbook they go and dump them and reignite a spark for the flame of hate i have for them. I'll maybe buy second hand or just get something else having no entry or basic full feature notebook is just absurd. I don't care where they think they can point technology if not going to offer the basics everyone expects of notebooks in 2011 DVD drive, at least 200GB+ hdd and anything but intels crap graphics then they have just removed probably the majority of their mac notebook market from existence.

ULV's never took off on pcs besides those who need long battery life with above netbook performance. The same goes for the MB Air nobody wants thin useless under powered crap.

[Brandon]

They are marketing to two segments here-- the young who want to "fit in" and care about style. And the old who have the $$ and want something "easy".

Apple's ideal situation is that you buy into their eco system. You start out with an iPod/iPhone, then you get a MacBook. Then you get an iMac for home. Then an iTV. Along with all of the accessories.

They don't care about the dedicated pros anymore. If you are one of those, you'll buy a MacPro and maybe a 17" macbook pro.

Truthfully, this ignorant "minimalism" BS they try to continue to push is beyond me. 1 USB port on the MacBook Air? Please. I have to now choose between a USB flash drive and an external mouse? Oh wait, I can get an APPLE bluetooth mouse. Right. Forgot about that.

All three of my roommates have Macs. One of them doesn't understand why he spend $1600 for the 15" macbook pro when he knew a regular PC laptop that costs $500 would have been fine, the other two are so caught up in it they try to prove Macs are better. Hell, both my girlfriend and my ex like that = total Mac users.

I just laugh. I can do more with my $200 AMD Fusion netbook and my Quad Core AMD desktop that cost $350 to build than they will ever do on their $1000+ macbooks.

[ccuk]

They are marketing to two segments here-- the young who want to "fit in" and care about style. And the old who have the $$ and want something "easy".

Apple's ideal situation is that you buy into their eco system. You start out with an iPod/iPhone, then you get a MacBook. Then you get an iMac for home. Then an iTV. Along with all of the accessories.

They don't care about the dedicated pros anymore. If you are one of those, you'll buy a MacPro and maybe a 17" macbook pro.

Truthfully, this ignorant "minimalism" BS they try to continue to push is beyond me. 1 USB port on the MacBook Air? Please. I have to now choose between a USB flash drive and an external mouse? Oh wait, I can get an APPLE bluetooth mouse. Right. Forgot about that.

All three of my roommates have Macs. One of them doesn't understand why he spend $1600 for the 15" macbook pro when he knew a regular PC laptop that costs $500 would have been fine, the other two are so caught up in it they try to prove Macs are better. Hell, both my girlfriend and my ex like that = total Mac users.

I just laugh. I can do more with my $200 AMD Fusion netbook and my Quad Core AMD desktop that cost $350 to build than they will ever do on their $1000+ macbooks.

The new current Macbook Air has two USB ports. Just sayin'.

[threetonesun]

I just laugh. I can do more with my $200 AMD Fusion netbook and my Quad Core AMD desktop that cost $350 to build than they will ever do on their $1000+ macbooks.

Play games? They can all do the same things, they're all computers.

Not to mention, should we be impressed that you can do more with two computers than one? I would think one computer replacing two would be more impressive...

[#Michael]

They are marketing to two segments here-- the young who want to "fit in" and care about style. And the old who have the $$ and want something "easy".

Apple's ideal situation is that you buy into their eco system. You start out with an iPod/iPhone, then you get a MacBook. Then you get an iMac for home. Then an iTV. Along with all of the accessories.

They don't care about the dedicated pros anymore. If you are one of those, you'll buy a MacPro and maybe a 17" macbook pro.

Truthfully, this ignorant "minimalism" BS they try to continue to push is beyond me. 1 USB port on the MacBook Air? Please. I have to now choose between a USB flash drive and an external mouse? Oh wait, I can get an APPLE bluetooth mouse. Right. Forgot about that.

All three of my roommates have Macs. One of them doesn't understand why he spend $1600 for the 15" macbook pro when he knew a regular PC laptop that costs $500 would have been fine, the other two are so caught up in it they try to prove Macs are better. Hell, both my girlfriend and my ex like that = total Mac users.

I just laugh. I can do more with my $200 AMD Fusion netbook and my Quad Core AMD desktop that cost $350 to build than they will ever do on their $1000+ macbooks.

On your supposed 200 dollar netbook and amd desktop....what is the build quality? My guess is that it is made out of some cheap plastic. Does your desktop have that nerdy case with the neon lights in it and the huge ass HSF? Seriously...I bought my mbp because I can do some serious developing and photo editing that I can't seem to get done correctly on a windows box.

This continued argument is pointless and frankly childish. If you want a windows machine then buy one for $500 and be happy that you bought it for that much and that it is what with the kind of materials that warrant that price tag. I am willing to pay more because I know that my machine has a higher build quality to it.

Personal I feel that both OS have their pros and cons and they both are on par with each other in terms of usability. Everyone seems to be having a hiss fit that adobe products seem to not be working on Lion at the moment. But how many times a month is there a new flash/pdf/java/windows/etc... zero day flaw that is exposed on windows that must be patched?

[BoredBozirini]

I just laugh. I can do more with my $200 AMD Fusion netbook and my Quad Core AMD desktop that cost $350 to build than they will ever do on their $1000+ macbooks.

Well, one thing I bet you can't do is make the battery last more than 6 hours.

[Phixion]

If you want a windows machine then buy one for $500 and be happy that you bought it for that much and that it is what with the kind of materials that warrant that price tag. I am willing to pay more because I know that my machine has a higher build quality to it.

Your argument is flawed, if you're talking prebuilt crap then sure, but I paid almost ?1,000 for my current system a few years ago, it is neither cheap or "bad build quality", because guess what? I built it myself.

The components that went into building my current PC is alot better quality than anything in your Mac today. I went for top brand components that are above and beyond what Apple are currently putting into their systems.

Now this isn't to say I wouldn't buy a Mac, because if I had the money today I would, but lets be realistic here. Not every Windows machine is a cheap Dell/HP/Gateway.

When I bought my first home PC (IBM Aptiva in early 90's) Apple really was a niche market, since then it's become more and more popular, back then I was basically turned off them by the sales rep because they didn't play games.

[#Michael]

Your argument is flawed, if you're talking prebuilt crap then sure, but I paid almost ?1,000 for my current system a few years ago, it is neither cheap or "bad build quality", because guess what? I built it myself.

The components that went into building my current PC is alot better quality than anything in your Mac today. I went for top brand components that are above and beyond what Apple are currently putting into their systems.

Now this isn't to say I wouldn't buy a Mac, because if I had the money today I would, but lets be realistic here. Not every Windows machine is a cheap Dell/HP/Gateway.

When I bought my first home PC (IBM Aptiva in early 90's) Apple really was a niche market, since then it's become more and more popular, back then I was basically turned off them by the sales rep because they didn't play games.

You're actually talking a reasonable argument there. Sure if I built my own rig I could build one that out did one that any oem pre-built including Apple. But...does it run OS X....no. Again...I buy a mac because it runs an operating system that does what I need it to do.

[TheLegendOfMart]

On your supposed 200 dollar netbook and amd desktop....what is the build quality? My guess is that it is made out of some cheap plastic. Does your desktop have that nerdy case with the neon lights in it and the huge ass HSF? Seriously...I bought my mbp because I can do some serious developing and photo editing that I can't seem to get done correctly on a windows box.

Why should people have to pay more just because its in a relatively pretty aluminium enclosure, my pc is in a cheap case and it sits on the floor, why do i need it to be anything other than cheap steel/aluminium its the contents of the case that matter.

As for "serious" developing what a joke, i do a lot of web and graphic design and i manage fine using my apparently craptastic pc.

You're actually talking a reasonable argument there. Sure if I built my own rig I could build one that out did one that any oem pre-built including Apple. But...does it run OS X....no. Again...I buy a mac because it runs an operating system that does what I need it to do.

Mine does, im currently running windows 7 and osx Lion without any issues whatsoever and probably running it FAR faster than your macbook and for a fraction of the price.

[Phixion]

Yeah you can run Hackintosh, whether it's succesful depends on your components. Most recent setups seem to run fine though.

[ccuk]

Why should people have to pay more just because its in a relatively pretty aluminium enclosure, my pc is in a cheap case and it sits on the floor, why do i need it to be anything other than cheap steel/aluminium its the contents of the case that matter.

As for "serious" developing what a joke, i do a lot of web and graphic design and i manage fine using my apparently craptastic pc.

Mine does, im currently running windows 7 and osx Lion without any issues whatsoever and probably running it FAR faster than your macbook and for a fraction of the price.

See... That's the beauty of it. In the current market, there are plenty of linux and windows boxes to choose from. No one is holding a gun to their heads.

And sure, comparing a desktop machine to a laptop really is a fair comparison of speed.

[the evn show]

This thread has been cleaned up once already - let's all play nice even if the initial post was a bit heated.

[ahhell]

On your supposed 200 dollar netbook and amd desktop....what is the build quality? My guess is that it is made out of some cheap plastic. Does your desktop have that nerdy case with the neon lights in it and the huge ass HSF? Seriously...I bought my mbp because I can do some serious developing and photo editing that I can't seem to get done correctly on a windows box.

Serious developing and photo editing, folks!!!

You can't do that with Windows!!

:rolleyes:

[xWhiplash]

I think it's fairly obvious, they aren't really catering to professionals anymore.

I dont understand why people think this. They still offer a Macbook Pro and the Mac Pro workstation (which most non-professionals will not buy). They still offer their professional suites (Logic Studio). They still seem to have lots of professional options available.

[WelshBluebird]

You do realise that the intel graphics really is not that bad?

Its a tad worse than the integrated Nvidia graphics used in the previous macbooks, but the better CPU's more than make up for that.

Of course you are not going to run Crisis on it or whatever (although it should run on low - medium settings), but for things like Photoshop? It is just fine.

Truthfully, this ignorant "minimalism" BS they try to continue to push is beyond me. 1 USB port on the MacBook Air? Please. I have to now choose between a USB flash drive and an external mouse? Oh wait, I can get an APPLE bluetooth mouse. Right. Forgot about that..

Errr the Macbook Ais has 2 USB ports, not 1.

[bobbyfabulous]

I buy Apple computers because, as cliche' as it sounds, they just work...I don't have to remove a crap load of bloatware upon first use, I don't need to download a good media player or pdf reader or image mounter or anti malware apps....i don't have to custom build a nice computer myself, why when i can pay apple who already have done that themselves and better than I ever could?

Its simple, I have money, I want a nice computer that does what I want it to do and I want it now...hmmm, Apple Store or?

Yeah I'm 32 not 23, I'lll give newegg a pass :)

I just laugh. I can do more with my $200 AMD Fusion netbook and my Quad Core AMD desktop that cost $350 to build than they will ever do on their $1000+ macbooks.

Play games? They can all do the same things, they're all computers.

Not to mention, should we be impressed that you can do more with two computers than one? I would think one computer replacing two would be more impressive...

HAHA!!!

[ccuk]

I dont understand why people think this. They still offer a Macbook Pro and the Mac Pro workstation (which most non-professionals will not buy). They still offer their professional suites (Logic Studio). They still seem to have lots of professional options available.

People think this because of several reasons. The death of Shake, the death of the X serves, the death of the X Serve RAID array, the seemingly apparent drop of Pro support in Final Cut X. I think it's only a matter of time before logic gets watered down. I would predict that the MacBook Airs will in the not too distant future become Apple's main notebook line as they ditch their current notebook lineup; and subsequently they add more Touch based devices. The TV posted earlier sounds more than plausible.

They are still going to cater to Pro segment to some extent i.e. thin and powerful laptops as their high end machines are in many respects class leaders (the battery life offered is a big selling point), but they really have no compelling selling feature to the pro market any more. And that is their own doing, they clearly want out.

[hynesy]

On your supposed 200 dollar netbook and amd desktop....what is the build quality? My guess is that it is made out of some cheap plastic. Does your desktop have that nerdy case with the neon lights in it and the huge ass HSF? Seriously...I bought my mbp because I can do some serious developing and photo editing that I can't seem to get done correctly on a windows box.

This continued argument is pointless and frankly childish. If you want a windows machine then buy one for $500 and be happy that you bought it for that much and that it is what with the kind of materials that warrant that price tag. I am willing to pay more because I know that my machine has a higher build quality to it.

Personal I feel that both OS have their pros and cons and they both are on par with each other in terms of usability. Everyone seems to be having a hiss fit that adobe products seem to not be working on Lion at the moment. But how many times a month is there a new flash/pdf/java/windows/etc... zero day flaw that is exposed on windows that must be patched?

I've used a lot of different Apple and Windows machines (for work) and I don't buy the whole build quality crap. TBH they seem exactly as reliable as almost any windows box/laptop, and while I'm on it I've found iPods infinitely less reliable then the Cowon MP3 player's I've purchased. I think the "build quality" argument for Apple products is moot.

I'm not going to weigh in on the whole "why get an Apple?" debate because I think it's largely personal preference. Whether that preference comes from wanting to look "cool" or wanting a Mac for photo/video editing is irrelevant in my opinion.

[Gone]

For the absolute love of ****ing god...I am tired of this joke of an argument. If you want a lower priced computer/laptop then buy a god damn no named windows computer. The reason you pay a higher price for a mac isn't because of the operating system but actually because of the build quality of the computer.

The unibody mbp that I have from 2008 doesn't have 1 scratch on it. And yet a $500 windows computer from 2008 (yes probably less then half the cost of what I paid) is made of cheap plastic. Stop with this stupid argument.

And yet everybody skips over my argument.The build quality of the last two mac computers I've bought is ****. Apple is such an arrogant and uptight company that they won't take responsibility for their crappy quality with the last two products I've bough. I had no problems with the iBook G4, and I've dropped it once or twice, but my macbook started cracking on its own?? Yah great build quality.

[1759]

Mac definitely have one huge thing on their side... OS X.

Windows 7 Home Premium costs considerably more than Lion yet has alot less applications bundled with it, look at OS X and the iLife Suite, it basically has everything a "professional" could need right there.

Not to mention the finish of Apple's products, they look great and the OS is a joy to use (most of the time).

iLife doesn't come with OSX, it comes with the computer. Apple can charge less for the OS, because the cost is subsidized by the cost of the HW. The Mac Mini I bought in 2007 still only came with iLife 08, even though I upgraded to SL.

And did you seriously just consider iLife something a professional could use for basically all the their tasks? Oh come on now. It's a decent consumer suite, but I could never do all the editing I do in Lightroom 64-bit (on my PC) in iPhoto.

As for Apple themselves, I do like OSX a lot, some things better than Windows, but their computers leave me disappointed sometimes, and Apple will be eventually done in by their own hubris. I still have a need for Flash, I like Blu-ray, my DVD drives, I appreciate good design, but there are limits. Once iPads get wireless backup and reach a certain power threshold, I see no point to buy a Mac (or even a PC) for a typical user.

[Windows7even]

apple used to think of the company as a hardware company not a software company but now they need to flip that..snow leopard/lion are fantastic operating systems that deserve to be in the spotlight. Sure they have great hardware also, and so does the pc industry, but its not about that anymore. Hardware is easy, getting the software right is the real challenge in todays market.

[greenwizard88]

I dont understand why people think this. They still offer a Macbook Pro and the Mac Pro workstation (which most non-professionals will not buy). They still offer their professional suites (Logic Studio). They still seem to have lots of professional options available.

Except some models of the Macbook Pro don't even come with a legit graphics card. Did you know, if you want to be able to game on a laptop, you have to spend either $600 from Dell, or $1800 from Apple? That's 3x as much. 3x. And for what? I don't care of my computer's fan is 21db or 25db. Or if my battery life is 4 hours or 7. But if I want to watch a blu-ray movie, I sure as hell don't want to be stuck using the iTunes movie store.

Sorry, sorry. As a professional.

Where do I begin? Adobe products. Quickbooks. Rosetta, was removed. That esata port for my external drives, or the USB 3.0 port. Where are they? I can't even add them on using an expresscard, unless I buy a 17" MBP. But then I lose out on the SD slot, which is what my professional camera records to. Likewise, Apple removed the ability to stick a panasonic P2 card directly into the PowerBook when it transitioned from a PB to a MBP. I mean, 7 hours of battery life is great, unless it's 3 hours while rendering, where battery life is a moot point. And how about the ability to burn a blu-ray disc?

Apple is transitioning from computers to appliances. And for many people, all you need is an appliance for facebook, an appliance for photos, and an appliance for movies. That's what the new name for .app should be - appliance.

For everything else, there's a real PC.

[xWhiplash]

Except some models of the Macbook Pro don't even come with a legit graphics card. Did you know, if you want to be able to game on a laptop, you have to spend either $600 from Dell, or $1800 from Apple? That's 3x as much. 3x. And for what? I don't care of my computer's fan is 21db or 25db. Or if my battery life is 4 hours or 7. But if I want to watch a blu-ray movie, I sure as hell don't want to be stuck using the iTunes movie store.

Sorry, sorry. As a professional.

Where do I begin? Adobe products. Quickbooks. Rosetta, was removed. That esata port for my external drives, or the USB 3.0 port. Where are they? I can't even add them on using an expresscard, unless I buy a 17" MBP. But then I lose out on the SD slot, which is what my professional camera records to. Likewise, Apple removed the ability to stick a panasonic P2 card directly into the PowerBook when it transitioned from a PB to a MBP. I mean, 7 hours of battery life is great, unless it's 3 hours while rendering, where battery life is a moot point. And how about the ability to burn a blu-ray disc?

Apple is transitioning from computers to appliances. And for many people, all you need is an appliance for facebook, an appliance for photos, and an appliance for movies. That's what the new name for .app should be - appliance.

For everything else, there's a real PC.

The keyword people have been using is professionals not gamers. A person like myself who works in Photoshop and After Effects finds the 13" MBP performs very well.

Again with the price arguments. Everybody needs to look at what you get, then compare the prices:

1. Aluminum Unibody vs Cheap Plastic: Yes this is personal choice, but I prefer the unibody over the Dell plastic. This is the same reason why I purchase computer cases above $200 when I build myself because I like full tower steel cases. Personal opinion, but you cannot argue that it costs Apple more, which makes their computers cost more.
   
2. Usually higher end displays: Apple's laptops usually comes with higher quality displays than a $200 dell. Either better technology or higher resolution. This is perfect for the graphic artists.
   
3. Productivity Suite: Macs come with the iLife productivity suite, so that is factored into the price of the computer as well. Rather you want it or not, it is included and thus makes the price higher.
   
4. OS X: Macs come with OS X, a very good operating system that everybody can use (mostly). Again, you need to factor this into the pricing as well.
   
5. Windows: You do know you can run Windows on the Mac as well? The mac performs just like any other "pc" with the same specs
   
6. No bloat: The reason Dell, HP, and all the other PC manufacturers are cheaper is because they get some money by putting product trials, very short subscription to AV software, and making half a dozen things load when you start the computer. This is why I always perform a clean install as soon as I get one from these companies.
   
7. Building price: Just like if you compare Dell and building yourself, Macs need that same building price if not more. Like I said, they spend more time cutting out the unibody than cheap plastic which causes an increase in build pricing.
   

Please people, do a full thorough comparison before you say a $600 Dell laptop is SOOOOOO much better than a $1,900 15" Macbook Pro.