Why are people so confused on Win8?

By pack34
in The Fast Ring (Insider Previews)

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iuerg87yerg879e0rg9erugjer

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windows 8 is going to be a universal support OS on most platforms including now confirmed ARM. That is it, there may be slight differences between PCs, tablets and possibly mobile devices. what people are getting confused about is why the UI is more focused towards the mobile world and leaving the PC guys behind.

Grand Master

TheLegendOfMart

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Every once in a while I head over to ZDnet and everyone seems so confused on what Windows 8 is, specifically on ARM.

Maybe I'm just ignorant but:

- Win on Arm: Metro tablet similar to your iPads and Androids

- Win on x86: Metro and traditional desktop

No ones confused, we just don't want Metro. Also Windows 8 on ARM will have desktop also.

Grand Master

George P Global Moderator

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There shouldn't be any confusion but keeping the desktop on the ARM version seems to be what some are hung up on. We need more details on that part of things but for the most it's like you say. ARM devices will be tablets while there could be a few x86 as well but not much imo.

Right now MS needs to give more detail on how/if 3rd party devs can even target the desktop after passing some MS cert process or if it will be locked down tight to only limited partners.

Either way it's not like people who buy a tablet with WOA will be thinking about using the desktop much if ever. Hell I think MS kept it in there more for Office apps than anything else. Only time will tell in the end, I'll wait to see what the newest SDK for it will let you do as far as the desktop and ARM are concerned.

Grand Master

George P Global Moderator

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Honestly the desktop will be on the way out over time. Once you guys see the systray changed to something else then you'll know. Probably in Win9 next.

  • Muhammad Farrukh
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Grand Master

Zain Adeel

Posted
Posted

I want the start screen everywhere!

from my TV to my mobile! i already have that :D WP7 FTW..

but imagine a TV a gaming console.. all with that design. So u know how everything in ur house works. Kinect or Bing speech with TellMe.

Embrace the future kids.

Although yes desktop is here to stay for windows 8. Till we find a way to port heavy apps to metro design language.

  • ffMathy and subcld
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pack34

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There shouldn't be any confusion but keeping the desktop on the ARM version seems to be what some are hung up on. We need more details on that part of things but for the most it's like you say. ARM devices will be tablets while there could be a few x86 as well but not much imo.

Right now MS needs to give more detail on how/if 3rd party devs can even target the desktop after passing some MS cert process or if it will be locked down tight to only limited partners.

Either way it's not like people who buy a tablet with WOA will be thinking about using the desktop much if ever. Hell I think MS kept it in there more for Office apps than anything else. Only time will tell in the end, I'll wait to see what the newest SDK for it will let you do as far as the desktop and ARM are concerned.

The answer is no. There will be no third party applications on desktop ARM. If you want third party desktop apps then you want an x86 device.

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Cereal Bawks

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Posted

Everyone getting their panties in a twist over that would practically amount to simply a different start menu. Pin your crap to the start menu and/or put shortcuts on your desktop, and you'll never have to see any Metro beyond boot-up and occasionally searching for files.

Grand Master

+Frank B. Subscriber²

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What some of you fail to see is how Windows 8 is Microsoft's first step into the post-PC era.

Look at the market. PC sales are slowing down while smartphones and tablets are gaining traction. Then think back to CES and some of the Ultrabook concepts on display.

It's more than obvious that Microsoft considers the traditional desktop PC a dying breed, to be relegated to a niche market. The Windows desktop is set for the same fate - a second-class citizen for 'power users' and to run what is likely to be the last non-Metro version of Office. I fully expect Office 16 to be a set of immersive apps.

Games? They too can be integrated into the Metro UI. You don't need the Windows desktop for them. Alternatively, just get an Xbox.

Windows 8 is one step towards a unified user experience across Microsoft products. WP7/8, Xbox, soon Windows. It is not aimed at traditionalists, it is aimed at the post-PC crowd who are now busy buying iPads, iPhones and the like.

  • DJ-Light and Jan
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fsX

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Posted

People are confused because Microsoft made the "mistake" of showing off Windows 8 before its release. If they had kept completely quiet until release, people wouldn't speculate so much about Metro and its place on the desktop.

Also, most people are mentally too old and too stupid to understand new things.

Grand Master

Stoffel

Posted
Posted

MS has to make sure it communicates the difference between WOA and Win8 very clearly.

If they manage to do that then they are golden, if they fail we might see a lot of angry and confused people when they buy an WOA tablet and can't use all their favorite Win apps.

But for now let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

I for one am looking really forward to the CP of Win8

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

There shouldn't be any confusion but keeping the desktop on the ARM version seems to be what some are hung up on. We need more details on that part of things but for the most it's like you say. ARM devices will be tablets while there could be a few x86 as well but not much imo.

Right now MS needs to give more detail on how/if 3rd party devs can even target the desktop after passing some MS cert process or if it will be locked down tight to only limited partners.

Either way it's not like people who buy a tablet with WOA will be thinking about using the desktop much if ever. Hell I think MS kept it in there more for Office apps than anything else. Only time will tell in the end, I'll wait to see what the newest SDK for it will let you do as far as the desktop and ARM are concerned.

ARM devices will NOT just be tablets - that's where the confusion

Every once in a while I head over to ZDnet and everyone seems so confused on what Windows 8 is, specifically on ARM.

Maybe I'm just ignorant but:

- Win on Arm: Metro tablet similar to your iPads and Androids

- Win on x86: Metro and traditional desktop

ARM devices won't only be tabvlets/slates; however, I Have only one idea where you got that assumption from - ARM *to date* has only appeared on tablets. (There's a reason for the *tablet-only* appearance of ARM to date - has anyone created an OS for ARM that supports keyboards and mice?)

If you had watched the video that accompanied that rather lengthy blog post, you would have seen both an ARM-based netbook and a docked tablet/slate (similar to the IdeaPad with its dock) in addition to the dead-center ARM tablet. In short, the same formfactors for ARM (except for desktops) as is the case with x86/x64 today.

That mean ARM-based netbooks - with longer (far longer) battery life than the x86/x64 equivalents.

However, there's a massive (depending on your needs) tradeoff when choosing ARM as your default (even with WOA/Windows on ARM) - no Win32 API/applicaiton support. Office for WinRT will be included with ARM-based computers for exactly that reason - the current version of Office won't run on ARM. (The current version of Office *does* run on the WDP today, and will run on Windows 8 Consumer (or later) Preview, and RTM when it ships.)

The common UI is both a point of commonality (the UI of previous *niche* versions of Windows was so wildly different - it had practically zero connection to Windows on the desktop) and a point of practicality - not all ARM formfactors or hardware will support touch - some will be plain-Dick-and-Jane netbooks, with no touch support, standard keyboards, and a pointing device of some sort.

I'd be open to an ARM netbook as an adjunct to my current traditional desktop (which will absolutely positively be upgraded to Windows 8 when it RTMs, and the WDP partition will be replaced with a WCP partition when it becomes available). In answer to the question "Why a netbook, as opposed to a tablet or slate?" has to do with my likely uses for such a netbook (Web browsing, e-mail, and writing/text-entry) and that I *loathe with a passion* virtual keyboards. (It's not unique to Windows - I hate them just as much in Linux distributions and Android - no smartphone I have recommended - and they have all been Android-based - relies on one; they all have physical slide-out keyboards.) Therefore, give me (if ARM) a netbook as an adjunct- powered by WOA - and I'd be a happy camper.

The dual-API nature of Windows 8 on x86/64 means that the WinRT apps developed for ARM will *also* work on x86/64. That is a massive paradigm-breaker - with limited exceptions, apps and games developed for iOS won't run on OS X. Found and downloaded a nice WinRT app or game on your ARM-based tablet/slate/netbook? Take that same app and put it on your x86 Ultrabook. Heck, put it on your *gaming desktop* with Eyefinity or SLI and the extra display(s). WinRT means the only limits are those of the API itself. (No more of the niche-ification and fractuization that is present today.)

There shouldn't be any confusion but keeping the desktop on the ARM version seems to be what some are hung up on. We need more details on that part of things but for the most it's like you say. ARM devices will be tablets while there could be a few x86 as well but not much imo.

Right now MS needs to give more detail on how/if 3rd party devs can even target the desktop after passing some MS cert process or if it will be locked down tight to only limited partners.

Either way it's not like people who buy a tablet with WOA will be thinking about using the desktop much if ever. Hell I think MS kept it in there more for Office apps than anything else. Only time will tell in the end, I'll wait to see what the newest SDK for it will let you do as far as the desktop and ARM are concerned.

ARM devices will NOT just be tablets - that's where the confusion

Every once in a while I head over to ZDnet and everyone seems so confused on what Windows 8 is, specifically on ARM.

Maybe I'm just ignorant but:

- Win on Arm: Metro tablet similar to your iPads and Androids

- Win on x86: Metro and traditional desktop

ARM devices won't only be tabvlets/slates; however, I Have only one idea where you got that assumption from - ARM *to date* has only appeared on tablets. (There's a reason for the *tablet-only* appearance of ARM to date - has anyone created an OS for ARM that supports keyboards and mice?)

If you had watched the video that accompanied that rather lengthy blog post, you would have seen both an ARM-based netbook and a docked tablet/slate (similar to the IdeaPad with its dock) in addition to the dead-center ARM tablet. In short, the same formfactors for ARM (except for desktops) as is the case with x86/x64 today.

That mean ARM-based netbooks - with longer (far longer) battery life than the x86/x64 equivalents.

However, there's a massive (depending on your needs) tradeoff when choosing ARM as your default (even with WOA/Windows on ARM) - no Win32 API/applicaiton support. Office for WinRT will be included with ARM-based computers for exactly that reason - the current version of Office won't run on ARM. (The current version of Office *does* run on the WDP today, and will run on Windows 8 Consumer (or later) Preview, and RTM when it ships.)

The common UI is both a point of commonality (the UI of previous *niche* versions of Windows was so wildly different - it had practically zero connection to Windows on the desktop) and a point of practicality - not all ARM formfactors or hardware will support touch - some will be plain-Dick-and-Jane netbooks, with no touch support, standard keyboards, and a pointing device of some sort.

I'd be open to an ARM netbook as an adjunct to my current traditional desktop (which will absolutely positively be upgraded to Windows 8 when it RTMs, and the WDP partition will be replaced with a WCP partition when it becomes available). In answer to the question "Why a netbook, as opposed to a tablet or slate?" has to do with my likely uses for such a netbook (Web browsing, e-mail, and writing/text-entry) and that I *loathe with a passion* virtual keyboards. (It's not unique to Windows - I hate them just as much in Linux distributions and Android - no smartphone I have recommended - and they have all been Android-based - relies on one; they all have physical slide-out keyboards.) Therefore, give me (if ARM) a netbook as an adjunct- powered by WOA - and I'd be a happy camper.

The dual-API nature of Windows 8 on x86/64 means that the WinRT apps developed for ARM will *also* work on x86/64. That is a massive paradigm-breaker - with limited exceptions, apps and games developed for iOS won't run on OS X. Found and downloaded a nice WinRT app or game on your ARM-based tablet/slate/netbook? Take that same app and put it on your x86 Ultrabook. Heck, put it on your *gaming desktop* with Eyefinity or SLI and the extra display(s). WinRT means the only limits are those of the API itself. (No more of the niche-ification and fractuization that is present today.)

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

What some of you fail to see is how Windows 8 is Microsoft's first step into the post-PC era.

Look at the market. PC sales are slowing down while smartphones and tablets are gaining traction. Then think back to CES and some of the Ultrabook concepts on display.

It's more than obvious that Microsoft considers the traditional desktop PC a dying breed, to be relegated to a niche market. The Windows desktop is set for the same fate - a second-class citizen for 'power users' and to run what is likely to be the last non-Metro version of Office. I fully expect Office 16 to be a set of immersive apps.

Games? They too can be integrated into the Metro UI. You don't need the Windows desktop for them. Alternatively, just get an Xbox.

Windows 8 is one step towards a unified user experience across Microsoft products. WP7/8, Xbox, soon Windows. It is not aimed at traditionalists, it is aimed at the post-PC crowd who are now busy buying iPads, iPhones and the like.

Actually, it's a hedge-bet.

Part of the reason that PC sales are flat (if not declining) is a crappy global economy (consumers) and a business world under horrendous pressure (enterprises). As you pointed out, tablet and slate sales (right now, it's Android and iOS that rule that roost, because Microsoft has had nothing) are up - with price being the entire driving factor. However, it's both a threat - and an opportunity - for Microsoft. Think about a version of Windows with the same look and feel as the Windows we are most familiar with, with the only difference in fact being optimization for the ultra-lower-energy-using tablet/slate CPUs (ARM in particular). However, further up the line (in x86/x64, where we are today), re-engineer Windows to have a similar (if not identical) UI to the lower-energy Windows (which has become WOA) while still having the backward compatibility we have all demanded.

Talk about your one-two punches!

That is what Windows 8 and WOA represent. Unlike iOS, you can take WinRT apps from ARM devices to Windows 8 x86/x64 hardware completely unchanged. Unlike either iOS or Android, the learning curve is zero in migrating from a tablet or slate (or even a netbook - are there Android-based netbooks today?) - the UI is one you largely already know. No matter WHICH way the market goes in the future (whether tablets, slates, and other low-power devices continue their strong sales numbers, or whether the PC makes a comeback as the economy improves) - Microsoft's backside is covered, and the user wins.

Heck, I'm fifty, with an IT past that predates the PC and goes back to IBM Major League Mainframes (speficially, the old System360) and *I* get it.

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