windows 8 Windows 8 Consumer Preview: A Call for Common Sense

[Wyn6]

So are new ipad users able to use all the features and know all the gestures just by looking and touching? I see no reason why a new Windows 8 users wont be able to do the same and why the expectation is for them to have to know how it works with no effort at all.

And having a consistent interface across platforms and form factors allows for familiarity with the functionality, while accounting for the differing methods of interaction.

Agreed, efjay. I recall the first time I ever sat down and used a Mac. It's what my school used for film editing. I was kinda lost. Couldn't figure out how to "right-click". Took me a minute to realize the Apple key served similar function to the Windows key which I only really used to lock the PC. There were a lot of different elements to learn and it took some time to do so.

It wasn't just... Oh! Look how intuitive this Mac is to use. After I learned how to use it, I had no issues whatsoever, but there was a learning curve.

But, the fact that people expect a dramatically different OS to be completely figured out before you've settled into your seat well, is a bit overreaching. Same goes for ipads, iphones, windows phones, androids, new cars, microwaves (some you have to press time cook, others you can just tap the numbers, etc.), any millions of other things. There's ALWAYS some type of learning curve, no matter how large or how small.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

Discoverability is a very well accepted UI design principle though. Admittedly, the iPad is far from perfect at this. Still, invisible widgets for getting out of the application for example (which probably won't be a problem on tablets since I guess you'll have a dedicated button on the device), or even the requirement to right-click just to bring up any UI at all, might not exactly be optimal UI design, or at least will result in a UI that's harder to learn than it would have to be.

[~Johnny]

Discoverability is a very well accepted UI design principle though. Admittedly, the iPad is far from perfect at this. Still, invisible widgets for getting out of the application for example (which probably won't be a problem on tablets since I guess you'll have a dedicated button on the device), or even the requirement to right-click just to bring up any UI at all, might not exactly be optimal UI design, or at least will result in a UI that's harder to learn than it would have to be.

I'd be surprised dumbfounded if they don't include a desktop shortcut to a nice tutorial to the UI, and prominent Metro application that also explains it, and possibly a short informal introduction during setup. They know they're going to have to tell people how to use it - even techy people on here still don't fully know all the concepts.

[MorganX]

When I first ran the Windows 7 beta I would mouse over the icons of open apps on the taskbar and when the thumbnail popped up, I would hover on it which would cause a preview of the app in full to come up. I would then raise my mouse up to try and click into the app only to have it disappear. It took a minute to fully train myself to either click the icon or click the thumbnail once it came up.

No, no, no. In the scenario you described, you missed the thumbnail. This feature in Win 7 works flawlessly. In 8 CP, you don't miss. You have to keep you mouse in the corner. Put it over the thumbnail, no miss, and the menu is gone. This needs to be fixed. This isn't user error, this is poor implementation. I'm assuming this "will" be fixed by RTM.

[MorganX]

Agree 100%. If you dont like it go elsewhere or stay with windows 7. If your not a noob pc user and you rely on the start menu then your doing it wrong.

Actually noobs, gamers, and casual users who don't do much more than web browse, email and play games will be most satisfied with Metro on the desktop. Power Users and System Admins will probably be pulling their hair out over its shortcomings or running Server as their Desktop OS.

[Wyn6]

No, no, no. In the scenario you described, you missed the thumbnail. This feature in Win 7 works flawlessly. In 8 CP, you don't miss. You have to keep you mouse in the corner. Put it over the thumbnail, no miss, and the menu is gone. This needs to be fixed. This isn't user error, this is poor implementation. I'm assuming this "will" be fixed by RTM.

No. I didn't miss anything. It still works exactly the same in 8. Do this. Have a web page open but not in the foreground. Now, have another program up in the foreground or have just the desktop up. Hover over your web browser icon until the thumbnail comes up then move out to the thumbnail and stay there for a split second. The larger window of the web page appears. Now drag out to the page... poof! It all disappears.

With the page itself popping up, it leads you to believe you're in it when in actuality you have to click it to be in it. Test it yourself. We've all gotten so trained in clicking the thumbnail or the icon that we don't see this behavior much and if we do, we ignore it now.

Again, I'm all for the Start Screen thumbnail popping up and being able to click the thumbnail. But, since the above behavior in 7 is the exact same behavior with the Start Tip/Thumbnail in 8, by your logic it is also "poor implementation" in Windows 7.

[MorganX]

With the page itself popping up, it leads you to believe you're in it when in actuality you have to click it to be in it. Test it yourself. We've all gotten so trained in clicking the thumbnail or the icon that we don't see this behavior much and if we do, we ignore it now.

Now I understand what you're talking about. That's not really what I'm talking about. But in Win 7, I never think the window peeking is in the foreground because I see all the transparent ghosts, I know I'm just peeking and when I leave the thumbnail, peek goes away. When you click on the thumbnails other window ghosts go away.

In 8 CP, when you bring up the start page thumbnail, you should be able to hover over it, and click it. For me anyway, you cannot hover over it, the sidebar will disappear if you leave the lower left corner by more than a couple pixels. I do think that's a bug and will be fixed.

edit: The more I talk about these things, the more I love Windows 7. Forget the Start Menu, the taskbar, grouping, peek, I use these every day without thinking. They're one of the reasons Windows 7 is so much more productive than OS X. I want to say I'm staying with Windows 7 and will only go 8 on a tablet, but there's so much technical goodness under the hood. If MS adds an easy, non-fatiguing full screen swipe to the MS Touch Mouse, that might be enough for me. We'll see. We're getting a hands-on demo of 8 Tablets in a week and a half, I'm actually looking forward to that.

[Dot Matrix]

Power Users and System Admins will probably be pulling their hair out over its shortcomings or running Server as their Desktop OS.

Power users and system admins are different creatures. They're technical people that want technical things. Unfortunately for them, Microsoft wants to strengthen their ties with consumers first, technical people second. I don't blame them. Which one do you suppose has the bigger user base? ;)

[MorganX]

Power users and system admins are different creatures. They're technical people that want technical things. Unfortunately for them, Microsoft wants to strengthen their ties with consumers first, technical people second. I don't blame them. Which one do you suppose has the bigger user base? ;)

No argument on that point. If productivity meant anything to the masses who really don't do much with their PCs other than those things, no one would use a Mac IMO, lol.

But a huge portion of MS' profit comes from EA Agreements. And if 8 causes enough extra work to deploy and train, many will pass on it. If they pass for an EA Cycle, why not drop the EA for a while. Or, eat another 3 year loss such as Vista generated. System Admins and CIOs make the decision for tens of thousands of clueless users in many organizations.

I honestly believe MS will fix a lot of things, I hope so. But Start Menu/Taskbar is gone. Right now my recommendation is to ride out Windows 7 for another 3 years and go Windows 8 on Tablet devices. We'll see if I feel the same by RTM.

[Dot Matrix]

But a huge portion of MS' profit comes from EA Agreements. And if 8 causes enough extra work to deploy and train, many will pass on it. If they pass for an EA Cycle, why not drop the EA for a while. Or, eat another 3 year loss such as Vista generated. System Admins and CIOs make the decision for tens of thousands of clueless users in many organizations.

It shouldn't. Underneath the Metro, Windows 8 is nothing more than a slightly altered Windows 7 desktop.

[MorganX]

It shouldn't. Underneath the Metro, Windows 8 is nothing more than a slightly altered Windows 7 desktop.

Unfortunately, those small alterations IMO/E will have a huge effect on productivity in these type of environments, and the back and forth, full screen apps back to windowed environment. It's going to be tough, and could be a huge mess. I understand why MS didn't make Metro optional, and why they crippled the most productive features in the Explorer Desktop, can't very well have a full Start menu/Explorer highlighting how much more efficient and productive it is. I get it, it's just a huge gamble to go this route as opposed to going Tablet/Touch for Metro and finding a more elegant way to migrate the desktop to it, if necessary. Only time will tell.

[Salutary7]

Discoverability is a very well accepted UI design principle though. Admittedly, the iPad is far from perfect at this. Still, invisible widgets for getting out of the application for example (which probably won't be a problem on tablets since I guess you'll have a dedicated button on the device), or even the requirement to right-click just to bring up any UI at all, might not exactly be optimal UI design, or at least will result in a UI that's harder to learn than it would have to be.

Agreed. There are lots of little design principles that we take for granted or don't even realize exist, but once someone makes an interface that violates enough principles, a large segment of the users will naturally dislike it. It's not simply a matter of adjusting to change, as others have suggested; Win8 (at least its current form on the desktop) really does hinge on the edge of what many in its userbase will naturally accept. This is not to say a UI has to be perfect--the iPad certainly isnt, as you pointed out--but I just hope MSFT is thinking hard about what they're doing that gives so many people such a visceral reaction.

[MorganX]

Agreed. There are lots of little design principles that we take for granted or don't even realize exist, but once someone makes an interface that violates enough principles, a large segment of the users will naturally dislike it. It's not simply a matter of adjusting to change, as others have suggested; Win8 (at least its current form on the desktop) really does hinge on the edge of what many in its userbase will naturally accept. This is not to say a UI has to be perfect--the iPad certainly isnt, as you pointed out--but I just hope MSFT is thinking hard about what they're doing that gives so many people such a visceral reaction.

One of the most sane, open-minded, intelligent, and well written responses on this subject to date. Appreciated.

[myxomatosis]

Welcome to Windows 8 grandpa:

Ohhhh I forgot... Windows 8 is more intuitive ;)

[Dot Matrix]

Welcome to Windows 8 grandpa:

I'm kinda wondering if this guy has even used a computer before. Even on the desktop he seems lost which tells me there is something wrong here. Also the kid in the background sounds so snobbish, which puts doubts into the neutrality of the test.

Come back when you have an office worker or other younger parent who uses computers daily trying it out.

[srprimeaux]

I'm kinda wondering if this guy has even used a computer before. Even on the desktop he seems lost which tells me there is something wrong here. Also the kid in the background sounds so snobbish, which puts doubts into the neutrality of the test.

There is something wrong: there's no start button. That's what he's looking for. That's what he's used to seeing on the desktop. When he can't find it, he's lost and starts looking elsewhere.

[Dot Matrix]

There is something wrong: there's no start button. That's what he's looking for. That's what he's used to seeing on the desktop. When he can't find it, he's lost and starts looking elsewhere.

The thing of it is, he doesn't even accidentally trigger the corner hotspots. With him wandering all over the place in a 4 minute video, he should have triggered something to appear on screen just by accident. If he was searching for the start button, natural reaction would have been to move the cursor to the bottom of the screen regardless.

[myxomatosis]

I'm kinda wondering if this guy has even used a computer before. Even on the desktop he seems lost which tells me there is something wrong here. Also the kid in the background sounds so snobbish, which puts doubts into the neutrality of the test.

Come back when you have an office worker or other younger parent who uses computers daily trying it out.

Like it or not, he's the average Joe.

My parents are 53 and 55yo, they have a computer at home since Windows XP came out, but they aren't very "techy".

They would look exactly the same! They're the average user.

The thing of it is, he doesn't even accidentally trigger the corner hotspots. With him wandering all over the place in a 4 minute video, he should have triggered something to appear on screen just by accident. If he was searching for the start button, natural reaction would have been to move the cursor to the bottom of the screen regardless.

You don't seem to understand that for the average user, if it's not on screen, it doesn't exist. Call it dumb if you want, but that's the way it is. In my job, I see this kind of things EVERYDAY. Don't assume eveyone using a Windows machine is as techy and experienced as you are...

It's a design flaw as far as I'm concerned.

[Elliott]

The thing of it is, he doesn't even accidentally trigger the corner hotspots. With him wandering all over the place in a 4 minute video, he should have triggered something to appear on screen just by accident. If he was searching for the start button, natural reaction would have been to move the cursor to the bottom of the screen regardless.

Except you probably wouldn't trigger the hot corners. They're practically zero tolerance. If your mouse isn't within about 5 pixels of the corner, nothing will pop up. I don't know about you, but I don't wildly fling my mouse into the corners of the screen and hope for a miracle.

[V23]

There will be a tutorial when installing Windows 8 for the first time, these people won't be thrown in the deep end.

[chrisj1968]

what surprises me is, they throw Win8CP out there, people install it and are left to think WTF??????????

I'm used to a "start" button.I've been using Windows since 3.1 and when 95 came out, I got used to the start button. then the ranter here decides to lose his mind because HE'S in the loop and the know and knows where everything is... goody, goody for him. MS basically has put out a CP and everyone is looking for the steering wheel

Windows7 is probably the last windows I'll buy until they get the start button back. if they ever do...

[V23]

what surprises me is, they throw Win8CP out there, people install it and are left to think WTF??????????

I'm used to a "start" button.I've been using Windows since 3.1 and when 95 came out, I got used to the start button. then the ranter here decides to lose his mind because HE'S in the loop and the know and knows where everything is... goody, goody for him. MS basically has put out a CP and everyone is looking for the steering wheel

Windows7 is probably the last windows I'll buy until they get the start button back. if they ever do...

If people can go through the trouble of installing a consumer preview (beta, let's be honest) you'd expect they'd be able to work things out pretty quickly.

[Dot Matrix]

Like it or not, he's the average Joe.

Personally, I think he's the "sub-average Joe". My mom isn't much better (I have had many annoying phone calls on how to do things), but she's no idiot either. She's 55 and able to differentiate browsers, search the start menu, and knows how to properly store her pictures.

While I do agree that Windows 8 can be quite confusing at first, once you know what's there, it quickly becomes second nature. Perhaps Microsoft should look at placing dynamic balloons or screen hints to let users know what's what on screen, but the way this video is laid out just screams fake to me. The kid in the background didn't even give out hints as to what's there, and let his Dad carry on from there.

[srprimeaux]

The thing of it is, he doesn't even accidentally trigger the corner hotspots. With him wandering all over the place in a 4 minute video, he should have triggered something to appear on screen just by accident. If he was searching for the start button, natural reaction would have been to move the cursor to the bottom of the screen regardless.

I'm sure he wouldn't know what a "corner hotspot" even is. I see him going to the desktop, probably feeling comforted at the sight of a familiar space after visiting the Start Screen, only to have his heart drop as he realizes that there's no Start button or any other noticeable method to get back to where he was. He even cycles through the icons in the Task Bar to see if there's a hidden menu there. Nothing. The user should not have to go through that. An OS should not have to cause the user to remember all kinds of gestures to call up hidden menus, menus that were previously static and always present. There's absolutely no justification for its removal on a desktop system. There's no benefit to the user. None whatsoever.

[Dot Matrix]

There's absolutely no justification for its removal on a desktop system. There's no benefit to the user. None whatsoever.

Well, unfortunately, as desktop systems change, so to must the OS. Desktops aren't going to be this way forever, and I think we all know that.

To give the benefit of the doubt though, I expect to see a smaller button or other visual cue to be in place by RTM. Hopefully, not as annoying as all the junk that popped up on a first time XP install.