Paul says no WP8 update for current phones


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efjay

For the general public, most likely a new version of Windows Phone SDK on Win8. Some partners will probably also have access to early hardware through dev kits.

Without being able to test on real hardware that can mean apps that dont work well in the real world. Saw plenty of that mentioned by devs after they were able to test on real hardware and probably still today. Guess that will be our first clue.

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simplezz

As much as ****ed as anyone who buys a premium model Android phone these days. :laugh:

At least we got the major ICS upgrade. The Xoom got it, and that was a year old. And failing that we can get ICS through Cyanogenmod. It sure beats the 5/6 month life span of the Lumia's software if this article is correct.

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pickypg

There's hints that at least some subset of WinRT will be the new development platform for WP8 and I believe it to be so since it's pretty much a fact now that SL5 is the last version they're doing.????This opens up WP8, much like Win8 itself, to letting devs use more or less whatever they like best be it HTML5/JS/CSS, C++/XAML and so on.??????It's native code without being 100% direct to hardware and thus, if it's how I think it is, not going to break when MS makes any low level core OS changes since WinRT should just run (we know WinRT apps will run both on x86 and ARM already without any extra work for the dev afaik).

In order to write native code applications that run on both x86 and ARM machines, the developer will have to compile their source code twice, or use WinRT from a non-native development structure, such as HTML5/JS/CSS or .NET (beit pure .NET or Silverlight, which was demonstrated on Windows 8).

As far as developers are concerned, we have been told [in the demonstrations] that we can use WinRT from practically any language. However, this is how native development works: C/C++ code is compiled into assembly, which is compiled into machine code. The generated assembly is specific to the instruction set of your target platform, which means x86, x86_64, and ARM (and upcoming ARM64); this is one reason that native development can get tricky. As a result, for a C/C++ application to target any of the above instruction sets, then they will have to compile it for each target. Now, that does not mean that they have to write different code. In most cases, the code will work perfectly across all platforms. The only gotcha case is when the C/C++ developer writes inline assembly into their code (to eek out extra performance where a compiler either does not use a special instruction on a CPU (for whatever reason) and you know better, or it just uses a different optimization than you want), which must be then written per platform. In 99% of software, this is not a concern, but some things do have to consider it. Regardless of the route that the developer takes, they will have to recompile the code per target; in the simpler case this just adds a few minutes (or in some larger projects: hours) to a build process as it just reruns the process for each target, but in the harder case it's a matter of writing special-cased code to work around the special instructions (done once), per target, and then compiling for each target (just like the simpler case).

Using it from any of the non-native languages, it is a completely different and much simpler picture: write the code once and compile, or otherwise bundle it together. Once done, developers can distribute that file or bundle, which will be "JIT" (Just In Time) compiled on the user's local machine, which means that the code can be completely optimized for the user's hardware. This is what both .NET and Java currently do, as well as JavaScript engines in the modern browsers, and that's why they are so useful.

WinRT is more about unifying the multiple types of application development over the same layer (interface/API), as opposed to the old world where Win32 existed and its .NET counterpart existed separately, with Win32 getting preference. According to the company line, all languages will be treated equally by adding everything to this new layer (WinRT) so that every language has complete access, which enables applications to be developed in whatever is convenient for the project rather than whatever they have to use to target something Microsoft exposes (even this has caveats that can worked around through interop between languages, but that's kind of the point that WinRT helps to avoid).

All of this is to say that WinRT will marry WP8 with W8 by providing a common layer that all applications can talk too. As a result, to convert a W8 application running against WinRT into a WP8 application merely requires rewriting how the information is displayed (the application's UI). The rest of the piping can remain the same. This would also mean that any game engine could be quickly--and easily--ported over to both Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 simultaneously, and they would most likely see a performance increase thanks in large part to DirectX on both; I expect this to be where Microsoft gains a lot of ground quite rapidly thanks to the likes of Epic Games, et al. Plus, ignoring DirectX, games like Angry Birds will then be quickly portable by retaining a lot of the native code that was written for iOS and Android rather than requiring a full rewrite as they do now.

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ThePitt

:laugh: this made my day

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simplezz

After all, the alternative is to go to Android where you know that your phone will go unsupported after 6 months,

Name me one Android phone that was unsupported after 6 months. I don't think so. All recent high end devices are getting the ICS upgrade.

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pickypg

Name me one Android phone that was unsupported after 6 months. I don't think so. All recent high end devices are getting the ICS upgrade.

HTC ThunderBolt - Released March 17, 2011

Android 4.0 - Ice Cream Sandwich - Released October 19, 2011

Yes, that's 7 months, but I am going to call "close enough." Particularly considering my officemate owns one and mentioned that the 2.2-to-2.3.6 upgrade was late, and filled with bugs; HTC/Verizon went so far as to pull the update so many people are actually still on 2.2.

Motorola Droid X2 - Released May 19, 2011

For the ones that I do not know off-hand (because people in my office haven't mentioned them as I stopped caring about Android when the manufacturers stopped caring about their users via upgrades, hence my issue with the current WP rumor), you can feel free to go here: List of Android Devices (with versions).

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tsupersonic

HTC ThunderBolt - Released March 17, 2011

Android 4.0 - Ice Cream Sandwich - Released October 19, 2011

Yes, that's 7 months, but I am going to call "close enough." Particularly considering my officemate owns one and mentioned that the 2.2-to-2.3.6 upgrade was late, and filled with bugs; HTC/Verizon went so far as to pull the update so many people are actually still on 2.2.

Motorola Droid X2 - Released May 19, 2011

For the ones that I do not know off-hand (because people in my office haven't mentioned them as I stopped caring about Android when the manufacturers stopped caring about their users via upgrades, hence my issue with the current WP rumor), you can feel free to go here: List of Android Devices (with versions).

HTC at least updates their devices - actually moreso than Motorola, or Samsung or LG, etc. Thunderbolt will be getting ICS, who knows when VZW will release it.
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simplezz

HTC ThunderBolt - Released March 17, 2011

Android 4.0 - Ice Cream Sandwich - Released October 19, 2011

Actually that was the release date of the Galaxy Nexus. The source code for ICS wasn't released until November. At which point OEM's then had to do large scale testing.

Yes, that's 7 months, but I am going to call "close enough." Particularly considering my officemate owns one and mentioned that the 2.2-to-2.3.6 upgrade was late, and filled with bugs; HTC/Verizon went so far as to pull the update so many people are actually still on 2.2.

It still had a major upgrade from Froyo to Gingerbread. The Lumia 900 won't see any. Additionally, The Thunderbolt has low end specs. 480?800, 768 MB of RAM, and a second generation 1Ghz Snapdragon processor.

I've also found an article stating that the Thunderbolt will be receiving the ICS update:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2401551,00.asp

Motorola Droid X2 - Released May 19, 2011

I think this phone was one of the exemptions from the ICS update. And even in this case, Cyanogenmod fills the gap and delivers ICS.

If this article is true, I think we can safely say one phone not getting a major update vs all WP7 devices is quite a difference.

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jakem1

Name me one Android phone that was unsupported after 6 months. I don't think so. All recent high end devices are getting the ICS upgrade.

So even you acknowledge that there are plenty of Android phones that won't get upgrades since they're not "high end". Furthermore, six months after ICS was released and there are plenty of "high end" phones that haven't been upgraded yet (and you know that that will still be the case in a year's time with carriers dragging their feet). Compare that to the Mango update - MS had every phone upgraded within about a month. It's silly to even pretend that Android has anything like a planned, reliable upgrade strategy because it's just a joke and your chances of receiving an upgrade are entirely hit or miss.

By the way, claiming that users have custom ROMs to fall back on as an alternative to an official upgrade is weak.

...The Lumia 900 won't see any...

You don't know that and your argument is baseless.

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rfirth

The Lumia 900 won't see any.

Alright time traveler. You seem to have intimate knowledge of late 2012. Who will be elected president of the US in November 2012? Were the Mayans correct?

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simplezz
So even you acknowledge that there are plenty of Android phones that won't get upgrades since they're not "high end".

There are hundreds of Android phones on the market, all with completely different hardware. We're not talking about a few first gen devices with exactly the same specs like WP. It's impossible to say for sure that all of them will get an ICS update. I specified "High-End", because they tend to be made by the bigger OEM's, and thus tend to get better support.

Furthermore, six months after ICS was released and there are plenty of "high end" phones that haven't been upgraded yet (and you know that that will still be the case in a year's time with carriers dragging their feet).

I don't know where you get this six months from. The Android source code was only released at the end of November 2011. It's now April. That's 4 1/2 / 5 months. And during that time lots of devices have received the ICS update, and many more still will. With so many varied devices that's a lot of work to ensure all the hardware and drivers work properly.

Compare that to the Mango update - MS had every phone upgraded within about a month.

Every WP7 phone is first gen and has the exact same hardware spec that's why. And even then, there were problems with all the updates. Some devices being completely bricked. Updates rolling out at different times. Furthermore, these were really just incremental updates, nothing like ICS or WP8.

WP is still on its first generation hardware and it's already stalling on the first major software update WP8. If these rumours are correct. Considering how uniform the hardware is within the ecosystem, I can't see why the current gen can't be upgraded. We'll have to wait and see what Microsoft says on this matter.

It's silly to even pretend that Android has anything like a planned, reliable upgrade strategy because it's just a joke

That's what the custom ROM community is for. Android excels at customisation. Even if a device doesn't get an official update, there are mods like Cyanogenmod to provide the latest and greatest. Unfortantely, if your WP device doesn't get an update, you are stuck. Sure you can risk voiding your warranty with unofficial hacks like the ones for iOS, only to see your device become an expensive paper weight.

and your chances of receiving an upgrade are entirely hit or miss. By the way, claiming that users have custom ROMs to fall back on as an alternative to an official upgrade is weak. You don't know that and your argument is baseless.

Like I said, most of the recent devices have received or will receive the ICS update. That's not hit and miss. It's certainly better than no WP7 devices at all receiving an upgrade to WP8, even ones released 4/5 months prior (Lumia 900).

Custom ROMS and customisability are a big part of the Android experience. You should give it a try. It's much better than unofficial, unsupported hacking on WP and iOS.

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tsupersonic

That's what the custom ROM community is for. Android excels at customisation. Even if a device doesn't get an official update, there are mods like Cyanogenmod to provide the latest and greatest. Unfortantely, if your WP device doesn't get an update, you are stuck. Sure you can risk voiding your warranty with unofficial hacks like the ones for iOS, only to see your device become an expensive paper weight.

You make it sound like installing custom ROM's on an Android phone doesn't void the warranty. Rooting Android phones will void the warranty. Yes, you can always 'unroot' them if you ever have hardware issues.
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pickypg

Actually that was the release date of the Galaxy Nexus. The source code for ICS wasn't released until November. At which point OEM's then had to do large scale testing.

Are you suggesting that OEMs did not have access to it. OEMs, like Samsung, which make the Galaxy Nexus did not have access?

It still had a major upgrade from Froyo to Gingerbread.

Yep, and it was pulled because it was so buggy, which I mentioned in my post. My office mate complained about this to me. Here's hoping that if there ever actually is an ICS update for it that it actually works, and that it stays available. Oops, that's inconvenient for you though.

The Lumia 900 won't see any. Additionally, The Thunderbolt has low end specs. 480?800, 768 MB of RAM, and a second generation 1Ghz Snapdragon processor.

Yet it was the first LTE phone on Verizon. That's also only "low end specs" by today's standards. That phone came out last March, and that's a dual core processor that you are misleadingly representing.

I've also found an article stating that the Thunderbolt will be receiving the ICS update:

http://www.pcmag.com...,2401551,00.asp

I think this phone was one of the exemptions from the ICS update. And even in this case, Cyanogenmod fills the gap and delivers ICS.

If this article is true, I think we can safely say one phone not getting a major update vs all WP7 devices is quite a difference.

I am not really going to argue with you because you cannot accept reality, nor do you seem to comprehend the part where I said that I would be upset to the point of dropping the platform if this rumor turned out to be true. You asked me to show one phone, and I showed you multiple, and I even provided an entire list showing many more, like the LG G2X (April 2011; glancing at the list I already provided...). Besides, plenty of Android updates have been promised that have fallen through; until the updates are released, then you cannot take it for granted that you are getting it. Similarly, until Microsoft announces it, then we /can/ take it for granted that we are getting it because it has been stated that all phones will get major updates to avoid fragmentation. By not providing WP8 for all WP7 devices, then they would cause fragmentation like your beloved Android.

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anarkhy

So wp7 are not just overpriced, they are born dead.

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jakem1

That's what the custom ROM community is for. Android excels at customisation. Even if a device doesn't get an official update, there are mods like Cyanogenmod to provide the latest and greatest. Unfortantely, if your WP device doesn't get an update, you are stuck. Sure you can risk voiding your warranty with unofficial hacks like the ones for iOS, only to see your device become an expensive paper weight.

Like I said, most of the recent devices have received or will receive the ICS update. That's not hit and miss. It's certainly better than no WP7 devices at all receiving an upgrade to WP8, even ones released 4/5 months prior (Lumia 900).

Custom ROMS and customisability are a big part of the Android experience. You should give it a try. It's much better than unofficial, unsupported hacking on WP and iOS.

As has been said before, custom ROMs are no replacement for an officially supported upgrade and will only ever appeal to a small percentage of people. For the majority of users, no official upgrade means no upgrade.

Claiming that custom ROMs are "a big part of the Android experience" as if that's a good thing is pretty strange. Custom ROMs were also a big part of the Windows Mobile experience and one of the reasons why that platform failed. Users shouldn't have to trawl the internet looking for hacks that void their warranties just to get their phones working. That includes getting updates or overcoming performance issues.

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George P

I have to wonder why some think the Lumia 900, and all the other phones, aren't going to get any more updates? I know we're talking WP8 but it's like you forget tango is coming up, and though not as major it does bring with it some nice things that we know of so far.

So, in a month or two the Lumia 900 will get a software update actually, until MS has that out to every phone, making it the 4th or 5th update to date to be rolled out to every device, then I'd say MS's track record of supporting devices has so far been top notch compared to Android who's, lets face it, bulk of sales doesn't come from those "high end" phones. Sure Samsung is doing well, no doubt, but that's the silver lining here, HTCs sales have been taking a hit for two quarters now if that tells you anything. The point is, so far WP updates, to date, have supported every phone, and the next one, tango will also. On the other side, everyone talks about the high end Android devices getting ICS but what about the flood of lower end devices that make up the bulk of Androids market share that are still on 2.2 or 2.3 even today and sold like new?

It's convenient to forget about those I guess, it wouldn't help to try and prove a point. Gotta love selective memory when it comes to techies.

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xeleraph

I don't know where you get this six months from. The Android source code was only released at the end of November 2011. It's now April. That's 4 1/2 / 5 months. And during that time lots of devices have received the ICS update, and many more still will. With so many varied devices that's a lot of work to ensure all the hardware and drivers work properly.

"Lots of devices" have received the ICS upgrade?

ICS has, get this, 3% of Android's market share. ~23% of Android devices have yet to be upgraded to Gingerbread, let alone ICS.

Seriously, we're talking about Android here, not Apple, where the **** is this reality distortion field effect coming from?

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patseguin

So here's my question, with no upgrade path on my Lumia 900, is it worth it to return it and go back to iPhone? I'm really liking the Windows Phone OS, but with no upgrade paths I feel that a lot of people will be dropping the platform.

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Jub

So here's my question, with no upgrade path on my Lumia 900, is it worth it to return it and go back to iPhone? I'm really liking the Windows Phone OS, but with no upgrade paths I feel that a lot of people will be dropping the platform.

I would suggest you do. I've been with WP7 for the past six months, and while I live the operating system itself, it just feels dead. All applications are being pushed primarily to iOS and secondly to Android, there is never any mention of plans to make apps available for WP7. And now if this is true, I'd say it's not much fun owning one.

On the other hand, if you don't use your phone as an entertainment or general utility device, but more as a phone or business phone, you couldn't go with anything better than WP7 in my opinion.

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Muhammad Farrukh

Paul, who?

Until we get the official word, please stop saying that the devices wont get the update.

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Muhammad Farrukh

So here's my question, with no upgrade path on my Lumia 900, is it worth it to return it and go back to iPhone? I'm really liking the Windows Phone OS, but with no upgrade paths I feel that a lot of people will be dropping the platform.

There is no official word on it, that the devices won't get Apollo update.

They, most likely, will.

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jakem1

So here's my question, with no upgrade path on my Lumia 900, is it worth it to return it and go back to iPhone? I'm really liking the Windows Phone OS, but with no upgrade paths I feel that a lot of people will be dropping the platform.

How do you know there's no upgrade path for the Lumia 900?

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xeleraph

How do you know there's no upgrade path for the Lumia 900?

True, but if being able to upgrade to WP8 is important for him, why take the risk?

As for whether to return the Lumia 900, I would say "yes" if upgrading is important for you. If Microsoft refuses to make a commitment to the WP upgrade path, there is no reason for consumers to remain committed to Microsoft.

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jakem1

True, but if being able to upgrade to WP8 is important for him, why take the risk?

As for whether to return the Lumia 900, I would say "yes" if upgrading is important for you. If Microsoft refuses to make a commitment to the WP upgrade path, there is no reason for consumers to remain committed to Microsoft.

But Microsoft aren't refusing to make a commitment, they're just not saying anything. People like patseguin are just panicking because of rumours in the blogosphere. I've probably seen just as many rumours suggesting that current phones will get an upgrade as those suggesting that phones won't get an upgrade so it doesn't seem sensible to make decisions based on anything but an official announcement.

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bogas04

Hard to believe the Windows Phones just released would have such a short life if we follow this news... HTC Titan II , Lumias and all other WP phones!

PS if they were testing WP8 on Lumia 610 , i doubt higher end phones can't run WP8.

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