neowin Why are you less active than you used to on the Neowin forums?

[Tom]

I think the quality of discussion and overall member attitude has gone down in correlation with moderators becoming less strict. This site has become less of a haven for maturity, and has instead fallen more into the realm of "just another forum".

The news is also very unfocused, and it seems like everything warrants its own article these days. More of tabloid tech journalism if you ask me.

The most simple way to fix this in my opinion would probably be to remove the article quotas for the writers. Since Neowin is never has really represented the "new" in news, perhaps this would open up time for writers to wait a few days for a situation to develop, and then write more than 2-3 paragraphs and slap a picture on it.

That's the reason a few writers stopped writing. I don't think scrapping it completely would be a good idea however, by doing so may make news reporters lazy as they don't have to worry about losing their permissions. However the current one imo is a little too high - there should be a balance between the quality and quantity. At the moment it's difficult for writers that can't dedicate a high portion of time in their week to writing reviews or high quality articles to meet the minimum requirement. With that said I do have permissions to write and since I'm a veteran I don't have to conform to the minimum week requirement, I can publish one whenever I like which is extremely awesome. :)

[shakey]

Almost every thread on here that is about Apple, Google, Microsoft or their products turns in to an argument. It seems like no one can have a topic about a piece of software or hardware without someone who doesn't like that software, hardware or the company that releases it coming in and saying something disparaging to the extent it baits others to respond defensively and then before you know it the thread has gained 10 pages of why something is better or worse than something else.

It is for that reason I don't post as frequently because that is most of the content on this forum now. I try to just respond to topics where there is no way what I say can be misconstrued or replied to in a way that would start a flame war but it is difficult because I feel some on here are just looking for an argument constantly. I even made a comment in some lottery ticket topic and someone quoted me and was condescending.

It isn't a unique problem to Neowin of course other sites have this kind of thing too but the difference is other sites like Reddit which allow discussions on a wide range of topics also allow for negative comments to be removed from view by community vote. A feature that would greatly improve the sound to noise ratio on this board in my opinion. I know previously we could vote up and down posts but it never went as far to actually remove or collapse comments which were voted down and I think that would have gone a long way to cleaning up the forum and improving the quality for everyone. People that just want to argue would be discouraged if their posts never get seen in the first place.

A general flaw though with letting the community govern what is allowed, is you end up with a majority community excluding those who do not think the same. An example would be real world issue - if there are more people who are republican viewing the forums, they could easily hide all topics and post that go against what they want. It's an extreme example, but a flaw that is had upon opening up the masses to govern themselves. Generally, it is good to have someone, unbaised, who is watching and in control.

[x-scratch]

Flamewars, fanbois, constant personal attacks seriously the intel vs amd, ati vs nvidia, apple vs windows crap is getting old

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

We could ban OT threads from the minispy (but not the full spy).

How about a tickbox in the top right that says "hide non-tech posts" or similar, which is ticked by default?

====================

With regard to the "there aren't any fanboys" argument. I agree that we (everyone in general) tend to throw the word "fanboy" around too much. Someone who is supportive of a particular movement (Metro, or Android, or whatever) isn't immediately a fanboy, however people who disagree with their views are too keen to label them such. That doesn't mean that there aren't fanboys on Neowin, but there are plenty fanboys all over the internet so there's nothing that can/needs to be done. In fact I find that some fanboys bring up interesting points of conversation that could often be missed if everyone was objective in their views.

What there does seem to be too much of is people who are unwilling to accept people whose opinions differ from their own. "You don't like Windows 8's Metro interface, but I do, therefore your subjective view is invalid and mine is the truth.", that kind of thing.

[soldier1st]

I have a life outside of neowin and the internet. if i see a post that is worth my reply then i will reply, otherwise i just hop around other forums looking for info.I don't go on social networking(well maybe facebook once in awhile) otherwise, i have no time for it. Very simple.

[togerland]

Another thing is that the members are very rude on here.... I wanted to build an Aol Clone and instead got trashed when I made the topic..... then when I responded to one of the people calling them an idiot I got warned even though the other persons comment was worse..... Bias much?

[Coagulated]

I've never been particularly active, nor have I been a member very long. I've been reading the site for a few years or so, but I tend not to post very often for a few reasons:

1, I'm very argumentative.

2, If I get involved in a debate, I hate not knowing everything about a topic. Thus, I will actually spend hours researching a topic.

3, I go on Google research tangents.

4, There are so many users on this site, half the time my opinion has been expressed before I post. I find it pointless to always post 'This' or '+1' or whatever to concur someone's statement.

[vincent]

The idea of this poll comes from the Reminiscing Neowin thread. We all know that activity on the forums has gone down considerably - there used to be ~3,000 posts a day on average, now we're in the ~1,000-1,500 posts a day range (extrapolated from the top 20 posters list). It's an anonymous, multiple choice poll. The choices were added in no particular order.

I'd be particularly interested to hear from longstanding members of the community - those who went from very active to lurking and posting once in a blue moon.

Personally, I don't have a lot of complaints currently. There is one recent staff promotion I do not agree with - a global moderator whose posts reek of condescension towards members in threads about a beta operating system should have been reprimanded rather than made supervisor. Alas, that's just my personal opinion; I'm sure senior staff had their reason to promote him.

Let's see if this thread can gain any traction and help to find out why forum activity is down as much as it is.

I used to be on here everyday (look at my post count) now i just browse and rarely post. Over the years it seems this community has gotten like a high school, it seems it's all about how popular you are on the forums, sorry just an observation, plus i prefer an outside life..

[scumdogmillionaire]

Too busy. I joined the forums when I was 18. Now I'm just about 30, own a business, have a daughter... no time to post. Was hoping to get to 2000 posts by my anniversary this year (11 years) but it's not going to happen!

[Glassed Silver]

As others have touched on, the main reason I do not post as much as I otherwise would is all the flaming. I cannot even count all the times I started typing a new post or response, only to change my mind and delete it all because it's not worth the trouble. I once posted a pic of myself in a thread where it was relevant (not trying to be 'sexy' or anything like that, wasn't that kind of thread), and got all kinds of negative comments about it. If I bring up an alternate point of view, or try to find a compromise between two sides in an argument, I'm either insulted, dismissed, or most often, completely ignored. Basically, I feel that the overall attitude here is negative and volatile, and I brace myself when making almost any kind of post--and you all should know I don't even post inflammatory types of things, I try to be level-headed and mature and intelligent in my posts--yet I still feel hesitant at times. I don't really feel like part of the community. I realise I am not exactly the target demographic for this forum (I guess? I'm certainly a minority at any rate), and that's fine, I don't intend to change that, but I do wish people were as open-minded, tolerant, intelligent, well-spoken, and just plain kind as a site of this purpose and reputation should foster. In general, people are such ###### on the internet. I wish this place was a bit different. I of course do not mean everyone--I have met some great people here as well. I have respect for quite a few folks here and enjoy interacting with them. Unfortunately, though, it is far more common to see the opposite. As with most situations, the good average folks are generally quieter, and the loud extreme minority ruins it for everyone. I don't know, maybe I'm old now and jaded with the younger generation who was entirely raised on the internet and are used to this attitude everywhere, but it'd be great to see this be a fun, helpful, supportive, diverse community. Edit: forgot my entire second point altogether, which was the quality of news articles, yeah. There seems to be a particular news reporter who goes for quantity over quality, and it really brings things down. There are also one or two veteran reporters who aren't working anymore and I wish they were, they always did a stellar job.

I completely agree with you and I think the EXACT same.

Literally ANY word you typed can be used to describe how I feel.

Incredible, I feel like hugging you now, because once again we seem to be so connected in how and what we think and express! :turned:

**

I have had so much on my multi-quote list, but it'd be way too much to go into detail with.

So in short:

+1 to moderation being too strict at times

+1 to front page news moderation being too lax

+1 for some threads asking for flamewars to generate comments and hence traffic. As a forum member you get warned at least for flamebaiting, as a news writer you get hard cash for it it seems.

I think that we have a wonderful community in general, I've seen communities where the harassing is much worse and the smarta**ing being INTENSE on levels way beyond acceptable. (*cough* Macrumors at times *cough*)

I like that this forum is home to more than just tech discussion, but indeed, we need to step up the game on tech talk. We need encouragements and I SOO SOOO second that we need projects again. I'd happily be a designer for whatever we might come up with.

Okay... so far so good.

Missed a lot of points still I am SURE.

Glassed Silver:mac

[Andre S. Veteran]

Other communities, like for instance Ars Technica, they are fine with a rough tone, and it can get pretty rough if someone comes along posting unresearched/no-effort things, and it is reflected in the quality of content within their threads (which is surprisingly good, as opposed to what one might have assumed). Despite that, they seem to be doing well. If you were to transplant that community here, it'd be smashed to smithereens under the banhammer.

Another example of this is teamliquid - you get warned simply for low-content or nonsensical posts, and the banhammer is quite heavy. They don't filter out the word **** but they do filter out actual ****. Despite this - and dare I say, because of this - the community is thriving and the forums are generally a pleasure to read and participate in. A focus on quantity vs quality eventually runs counter to itself as no one is interested in talking with people that make no effort to inform themselves before speaking.

[Vice]

As others have touched on, the main reason I do not post as much as I otherwise would is all the flaming. I cannot even count all the times I started typing a new post or response, only to change my mind and delete it all because it's not worth the trouble. I once posted a pic of myself in a thread where it was relevant (not trying to be 'sexy' or anything like that, wasn't that kind of thread), and got all kinds of negative comments about it. If I bring up an alternate point of view, or try to find a compromise between two sides in an argument, I'm either insulted, dismissed, or most often, completely ignored.

Basically, I feel that the overall attitude here is negative and volatile, and I brace myself when making almost any kind of post--and you all should know I don't even post inflammatory types of things, I try to be level-headed and mature and intelligent in my posts--yet I still feel hesitant at times. I don't really feel like part of the community. I realise I am not exactly the target demographic for this forum (I guess? I'm certainly a minority at any rate), and that's fine, I don't intend to change that, but I do wish people were as open-minded, tolerant, intelligent, well-spoken, and just plain kind as a site of this purpose and reputation should foster. In general, people are such ###### on the internet. I wish this place was a bit different.

I of course do not mean everyone--I have met some great people here as well. I have respect for quite a few folks here and enjoy interacting with them. Unfortunately, though, it is far more common to see the opposite. As with most situations, the good average folks are generally quieter, and the loud extreme minority ruins it for everyone. I don't know, maybe I'm old now and jaded with the younger generation who was entirely raised on the internet and are used to this attitude everywhere, but it'd be great to see this be a fun, helpful, supportive, diverse community.

Edit: forgot my entire second point altogether, which was the quality of news articles, yeah. There seems to be a particular news reporter who goes for quantity over quality, and it really brings things down. There are also one or two veteran reporters who aren't working anymore and I wish they were, they always did a stellar job.

I agree completely with what you said. I myself made a topic on here recently. It was a build log for my new computer and I detailed the assembly with pictures. Although most people were positive to the topic there were quite a few posters (4 or 5) that were negative about it and moderators had to clean the topic twice. All I wanted to do was show people a cool build I had done but some I think through jealousy mostly attacked the cost of the computer. I've posted a few such builds logs on these forums every couple years or so but I won't be doing it again. I also posted the build on overclock3d.net which is another forum I frequent and every post was positive so I think it is definitely an issue with Neowins community and not just people online in general.

[Glassed Silver]

Another example of this is teamliquid - you get warned simply for low-content or nonsensical posts, and the banhammer is quite heavy. Despite this - and dare I say, because of this - the community is thriving and the forums are generally a pleasure to read and participate in. A focus on quantity vs quality eventually runs counter to itself as no one is interested in talking with people that make no effort to inform themselves before speaking.

Surely quality must come before quantity, but I think sometimes even a low quality post is okay.

As long as you don't notoriously reply with lolcats everywhere, I think you're doing ok.

Just like with a conversation in real life: if you feel watched too much for your language and your staying on topic at all costs and that everything you say makes complete sense immediately or is regarded as okay quality, then the conversation may drag, because you become silent.

I think, being too strict can't be the answer.

Even if it helped getting "pure quality" at what cost?

Surely a lot of people would be pi**ed as hell to find themselves in a community that is so strict and unwelcoming to their posting behavior that still may be non-harassing and non-derailing, etc...

I think you can't apply community efforts to every community.

I'd rather dig through a couple of BS posts than constantly feeling watched, of course that's just me and obviously you'd be fine with this, however, I think I'd leave this site, as much as it would hurt me.

I cannot stand intolerance and over-strictness, so in that case, I'd be gone because this community always represented other values, which I like.

For a nerd site we're still rather welcoming to lax behavior. (lax, not being lax about manners)

Ban and warning = being rude or respect-less amongst other things to me.

Glassed Silver:mac

[techbeck]

Depends on the stories/articles being posted and if they interest me. Also, life gets in the way a lot and every now and then, I like to take a break from technology.

I have noticed a lot of spam posts lately and it seems a lot more people are taking others opinions of something and tossing out insults. Now, I can deal with the spammers but people insulting others or their intolerance towards others opinions makes me not even want to come here and post anymore. Also, people are not reprimanded the same way. I got a warning for calling someone an idiot a couple years back. I have been called names since then dozens of times (and seen others insulted as well) and their posts remain intact and no action taken. I even reported posts for insulting me and no action is taken. This also makes me not want to post at times because if someone is voicing their opinion on something, the last thing they want to be is insulted and then nothing be done about it.

[Andre S. Veteran]

I think, being too strict can't be the answer.

Even if it helped getting "pure quality" at what cost?

Surely a lot of people would be pi**ed as hell to find themselves in a community that is so strict and unwelcoming to their posting behavior that still may be non-harassing and non-derailing, etc...

The rule is applied intelligently at teamliquid. Different sections are moderated differently - fan clubs or general discussion see relatively little moderation compared to the strategy forum, where every post has to add something constructive to the discussion. Even there, a relatively low-content post that is appropriate and doesn't derail the thread can be tolerated, but the aim is to have threads with a high signal-to-noise ratio.

Personally, I don't care if a community ****es off most people - most people don't want to make any efforts to help build a community and just get attention for nothing based on the interest generated by others: they're leeches, just like on bittorent. And just like on bittorent, too many leeches kill it for everyone else.

[+M2Ys4U Subscriber¹]

We could ban OT threads from the minispy (but not the full spy).

To be honest, most of the OT threads I read are because they're in the minispy.

I only have a few forums in by favourites, and I generally only view those forums (which I do a couple of times per day).

For me, it's because I have no interest in mobile devices or Apple products, and little interest in Windows 8.

I'm the same. There isn't much that's discussed on Neowin that interests me any more - and the threads that do interest me aren't full of the type of discussion we used to have on these forums. Or maybe the type of discussion I want isn't the type that can be had on a site like this.

-- Projects. A community has to have a purpose, or a few. Development projects, whatnot...

-- Give the community a slice of the front page cake. A weekly digest of the best tech discussions in the forums (which I believe you've started doing so lately to an extent), reach out to some of the most knowledgeable members of your community and ask them if they could write an extensive piece on a particular subject, have it on the FP and reward them accordingly... etc.

-- speaking of the front page, have your news team be on IRC around the clock. There are news tips being posted 24/7, interesting discussions and points of views the team can take into account while writing their articles, there's also instant feedback to newly published articles which the authors can react to immediately by amending their pieces accordingly. They don't have to be active on IRC, they just need to lurk, as do a few already (scorpus, JCalfs) even though they don't give credit to tipsters >.> .

+1 to all of these things.

Autopatcher was a great project, and a product of a bad decision by a Microsoft contractor, and as much as some of us wanted Neowin to stand behind it, I guess there wasn't much of a choice.. By the time it almost recovered, the niche in which it operated disappeared. A great community project like that would be brilliant for Neowin.

The Forums seem to be hidden on the site, almost as if it's only driving the member database for front page comments.

And yes, not having newsies on IRC is a real shame. I've asked plenty of times for just that, and been laughed at.

[Circaflex]

For me it was some "newbies" that came in, ran their mouths, caused drama and made neowin less of what it used to be. Some new members dont like the advice given and just all around bad attitudes.

Oh and a few old members who i used to converse with no longer come.

[Andrew Lyle Global Moderator]

Unfortunately I just don't have the same time as I once did.

Going from a regular 9-5 job and not having much to do at nights, to a full time job that requires a lot of my personal time as well, which after work I just want to relax (I'm getting old :( )

That's the reason for my departure from staff (in case anyone was wondering). I also just purchased a house and I really need to focus on that and other things that go along with it. Purchasing a new home by yourself isn't an easy task.

Great idea for a thread though. I really miss neowins forums, but I'm highly active on IRC.

[Glassed Silver]

Wow... reading this thread makes me a little sad how we all share why we are so disappointed in the place that I guess still many of us like or even adore to some extend.

I think this thread got so popular in no time for a reason, but just like with a good "normal" thread you'd find here, I guess we need to focus - by topic - on the good things, too.

Although this thread has a lot of constructive potential, I think it's very important to stress what we like, too.

When you change things, it's all to easy to see the shadows, but working on getting shadowed areas of the dance floor lit imposes the risk of shadowing other parts once well light.

Glassed Silver:mac

[dead.cell]

A bunch of stuff in nice neat paragraphs.

That's a shame too, as I consider you one of greater posters here on this site. Not trying to keep ya here or anything, just giving credit where it's due.

Another thing is that the members are very rude on here.... I wanted to build an Aol Clone and instead got trashed when I made the topic..... then when I responded to one of the people calling them an idiot I got warned even though the other persons comment was worse..... Bias much?

Trying to handle situations like this won't end well for you. Two wrongs don't make a right. If people are harassing you and such, just report them and let the staff sort it out. This is the general ruling for many places. Hell, even World of Warcraft for example: someone insults you, you insult them back and report them, both parties will be warned. There is no bias in this, it's just how it goes.

---

Regarding some of the suggestions for moderation, I do believe extra moderation couldn't hurt. Just make it stricter in areas that would warrant it, and less so in more general areas. I mean, Something Awful has some strict ass rules compared to other sites, but their community is of solid quality. I'm not saying the way they run things would work here... but rules such as this would be very welcome:

Low Content Posts: Please do not make posts containing no content (ie, "first post," "hello, I'm new here," etc.). These just litter up the forums and with over 100,000 registered users, we need to eliminate these as much as possible. If you do not like a thread, then just vote it a "1" and move on; replies consisting solely of trolling fall into this category. As a general rule, write as if you were speaking in real life to another human being. Do not use any catchphrases, memes, internet slang, or any other crap that makes you look like a 12-year old.

[Vice]

That's a shame too, as I consider you one of greater posters here on this site. Not trying to keep ya here or anything, just giving credit where it's due.

Thanks dude, that means a lot to me :)

[togerland]

I find it funny that my car sex thread got more views then most of the tech stuff does :lol:

[Glassed Silver]

[...]

I'm not saying the way they run things would work here... but rules such as this would be very welcome:

"[...] Do not use any catchphrases, memes, internet slang, or any other crap that makes you look like a 12-year old."

No memes or internet slang?

I'm expressing my astonishment in the "proper" way then now:

de f*q?

A community can take that I'm sure.

If the thread derailed into a meme posting thread, then yes, something needs to be done, but clearly providing a pic or common joke for some laughs can't be bad.

If it's not harassing or patronizing (even then, if you include a wink and show respect, no offense should be taken) then it's good to go imho.

If you don't share the humor and ban it, then expect me to leave such a community if I find myself edging with such moderation, which by what I read seems rather facist-esque to me.

No offense, it might be that it doesn't work in such a harsh way over there, I'm not a member of them so I don't know how it's enforced and what the thresholds are, but the rule as it is written in your excerpt can be extended to menstrual moderation. :laugh:

Glassed Silver:mac

[Motoko.]

Most of the members act like they know everything when they don't.

[Tharp Daddy]

I find myself gravitating towards Twitter and Reddit for my technology news as of recent. Neowin news articles hold little for me, as i'll usually have read about it somewhere else before it's posted on Neowin. I also find that the forum topics become flame fests. I am interested in Windows 8 news, but all "discussions" on it turn into vicious attacks by Metro lovers and haters against each other. I want to read a discussion, not about how ___ is a tasteless idiot for not loving/hating the same things they do.