659 members have voted

  1. 1. Why are you less active than you used to on the Neowin forums, or what prevents you from being more active?

    • I'm more active on social networks these days.
      47
    • Technical aspects - e.g. downtimes, design
      14
    • Moderation is too lax.
      25
    • Moderation is too strict.
      24
    • Staff member x is shouldn't be on staff. I'm not coming back until (s)he is demoted.
      17
    • Member y should be on staff. I'm not coming back until (s)he is promoted.
      4
    • Flamewars, fanbois, constant personal attacks
      129
    • Topic x I used to be interested in is hardly discussed anymore. (e.g. OS customisation)
      62
    • Too much discussion of non-technical topics.
      61
    • Too much focus on technical topics.
      1
    • The attitude of certain members of staff.
      42
    • The attitude of certain community members.
      105
    • Who needs the forums? I prefer Neowin IRC.
      9
    • I have a life away from the internet.
      119


Recommended Posts

I think the quality of discussion and overall member attitude has gone down in correlation with moderators becoming less strict. This site has become less of a haven for maturity, and has instead fallen more into the realm of "just another forum".

The news is also very unfocused, and it seems like everything warrants its own article these days. More of tabloid tech journalism if you ask me.

The most simple way to fix this in my opinion would probably be to remove the article quotas for the writers. Since Neowin is never has really represented the "new" in news, perhaps this would open up time for writers to wait a few days for a situation to develop, and then write more than 2-3 paragraphs and slap a picture on it.

That's the reason a few writers stopped writing. I don't think scrapping it completely would be a good idea however, by doing so may make news reporters lazy as they don't have to worry about losing their permissions. However the current one imo is a little too high - there should be a balance between the quality and quantity. At the moment it's difficult for writers that can't dedicate a high portion of time in their week to writing reviews or high quality articles to meet the minimum requirement. With that said I do have permissions to write and since I'm a veteran I don't have to conform to the minimum week requirement, I can publish one whenever I like which is extremely awesome. :)

Almost every thread on here that is about Apple, Google, Microsoft or their products turns in to an argument. It seems like no one can have a topic about a piece of software or hardware without someone who doesn't like that software, hardware or the company that releases it coming in and saying something disparaging to the extent it baits others to respond defensively and then before you know it the thread has gained 10 pages of why something is better or worse than something else.

It is for that reason I don't post as frequently because that is most of the content on this forum now. I try to just respond to topics where there is no way what I say can be misconstrued or replied to in a way that would start a flame war but it is difficult because I feel some on here are just looking for an argument constantly. I even made a comment in some lottery ticket topic and someone quoted me and was condescending.

It isn't a unique problem to Neowin of course other sites have this kind of thing too but the difference is other sites like Reddit which allow discussions on a wide range of topics also allow for negative comments to be removed from view by community vote. A feature that would greatly improve the sound to noise ratio on this board in my opinion. I know previously we could vote up and down posts but it never went as far to actually remove or collapse comments which were voted down and I think that would have gone a long way to cleaning up the forum and improving the quality for everyone. People that just want to argue would be discouraged if their posts never get seen in the first place.

A general flaw though with letting the community govern what is allowed, is you end up with a majority community excluding those who do not think the same. An example would be real world issue - if there are more people who are republican viewing the forums, they could easily hide all topics and post that go against what they want. It's an extreme example, but a flaw that is had upon opening up the masses to govern themselves. Generally, it is good to have someone, unbaised, who is watching and in control.

We could ban OT threads from the minispy (but not the full spy).

How about a tickbox in the top right that says "hide non-tech posts" or similar, which is ticked by default?

====================

With regard to the "there aren't any fanboys" argument. I agree that we (everyone in general) tend to throw the word "fanboy" around too much. Someone who is supportive of a particular movement (Metro, or Android, or whatever) isn't immediately a fanboy, however people who disagree with their views are too keen to label them such. That doesn't mean that there aren't fanboys on Neowin, but there are plenty fanboys all over the internet so there's nothing that can/needs to be done. In fact I find that some fanboys bring up interesting points of conversation that could often be missed if everyone was objective in their views.

What there does seem to be too much of is people who are unwilling to accept people whose opinions differ from their own. "You don't like Windows 8's Metro interface, but I do, therefore your subjective view is invalid and mine is the truth.", that kind of thing.

I have a life outside of neowin and the internet. if i see a post that is worth my reply then i will reply, otherwise i just hop around other forums looking for info.I don't go on social networking(well maybe facebook once in awhile) otherwise, i have no time for it. Very simple.

Another thing is that the members are very rude on here.... I wanted to build an Aol Clone and instead got trashed when I made the topic..... then when I responded to one of the people calling them an idiot I got warned even though the other persons comment was worse..... Bias much?

I've never been particularly active, nor have I been a member very long. I've been reading the site for a few years or so, but I tend not to post very often for a few reasons:

1, I'm very argumentative.

2, If I get involved in a debate, I hate not knowing everything about a topic. Thus, I will actually spend hours researching a topic.

3, I go on Google research tangents.

4, There are so many users on this site, half the time my opinion has been expressed before I post. I find it pointless to always post 'This' or '+1' or whatever to concur someone's statement.

The idea of this poll comes from the Reminiscing Neowin thread. We all know that activity on the forums has gone down considerably - there used to be ~3,000 posts a day on average, now we're in the ~1,000-1,500 posts a day range (extrapolated from the top 20 posters list). It's an anonymous, multiple choice poll. The choices were added in no particular order.

I'd be particularly interested to hear from longstanding members of the community - those who went from very active to lurking and posting once in a blue moon.

Personally, I don't have a lot of complaints currently. There is one recent staff promotion I do not agree with - a global moderator whose posts reek of condescension towards members in threads about a beta operating system should have been reprimanded rather than made supervisor. Alas, that's just my personal opinion; I'm sure senior staff had their reason to promote him.

Let's see if this thread can gain any traction and help to find out why forum activity is down as much as it is.

I used to be on here everyday (look at my post count) now i just browse and rarely post. Over the years it seems this community has gotten like a high school, it seems it's all about how popular you are on the forums, sorry just an observation, plus i prefer an outside life..

Too busy. I joined the forums when I was 18. Now I'm just about 30, own a business, have a daughter... no time to post. Was hoping to get to 2000 posts by my anniversary this year (11 years) but it's not going to happen!

As others have touched on, the main reason I do not post as much as I otherwise would is all the flaming. I cannot even count all the times I started typing a new post or response, only to change my mind and delete it all because it's not worth the trouble. I once posted a pic of myself in a thread where it was relevant (not trying to be 'sexy' or anything like that, wasn't that kind of thread), and got all kinds of negative comments about it. If I bring up an alternate point of view, or try to find a compromise between two sides in an argument, I'm either insulted, dismissed, or most often, completely ignored. Basically, I feel that the overall attitude here is negative and volatile, and I brace myself when making almost any kind of post--and you all should know I don't even post inflammatory types of things, I try to be level-headed and mature and intelligent in my posts--yet I still feel hesitant at times. I don't really feel like part of the community. I realise I am not exactly the target demographic for this forum (I guess? I'm certainly a minority at any rate), and that's fine, I don't intend to change that, but I do wish people were as open-minded, tolerant, intelligent, well-spoken, and just plain kind as a site of this purpose and reputation should foster. In general, people are such ###### on the internet. I wish this place was a bit different. I of course do not mean everyone--I have met some great people here as well. I have respect for quite a few folks here and enjoy interacting with them. Unfortunately, though, it is far more common to see the opposite. As with most situations, the good average folks are generally quieter, and the loud extreme minority ruins it for everyone. I don't know, maybe I'm old now and jaded with the younger generation who was entirely raised on the internet and are used to this attitude everywhere, but it'd be great to see this be a fun, helpful, supportive, diverse community. Edit: forgot my entire second point altogether, which was the quality of news articles, yeah. There seems to be a particular news reporter who goes for quantity over quality, and it really brings things down. There are also one or two veteran reporters who aren't working anymore and I wish they were, they always did a stellar job.

I completely agree with you and I think the EXACT same.

Literally ANY word you typed can be used to describe how I feel.

Incredible, I feel like hugging you now, because once again we seem to be so connected in how and what we think and express! :turned:

**

I have had so much on my multi-quote list, but it'd be way too much to go into detail with.

So in short:

+1 to moderation being too strict at times

+1 to front page news moderation being too lax

+1 for some threads asking for flamewars to generate comments and hence traffic. As a forum member you get warned at least for flamebaiting, as a news writer you get hard cash for it it seems.

I think that we have a wonderful community in general, I've seen communities where the harassing is much worse and the smarta**ing being INTENSE on levels way beyond acceptable. (*cough* Macrumors at times *cough*)

I like that this forum is home to more than just tech discussion, but indeed, we need to step up the game on tech talk. We need encouragements and I SOO SOOO second that we need projects again. I'd happily be a designer for whatever we might come up with.

Okay... so far so good.

Missed a lot of points still I am SURE.

Glassed Silver:mac

Other communities, like for instance Ars Technica, they are fine with a rough tone, and it can get pretty rough if someone comes along posting unresearched/no-effort things, and it is reflected in the quality of content within their threads (which is surprisingly good, as opposed to what one might have assumed). Despite that, they seem to be doing well. If you were to transplant that community here, it'd be smashed to smithereens under the banhammer.

Another example of this is teamliquid - you get warned simply for low-content or nonsensical posts, and the banhammer is quite heavy. They don't filter out the word **** but they do filter out actual ****. Despite this - and dare I say, because of this - the community is thriving and the forums are generally a pleasure to read and participate in. A focus on quantity vs quality eventually runs counter to itself as no one is interested in talking with people that make no effort to inform themselves before speaking.

As others have touched on, the main reason I do not post as much as I otherwise would is all the flaming. I cannot even count all the times I started typing a new post or response, only to change my mind and delete it all because it's not worth the trouble. I once posted a pic of myself in a thread where it was relevant (not trying to be 'sexy' or anything like that, wasn't that kind of thread), and got all kinds of negative comments about it. If I bring up an alternate point of view, or try to find a compromise between two sides in an argument, I'm either insulted, dismissed, or most often, completely ignored.

Basically, I feel that the overall attitude here is negative and volatile, and I brace myself when making almost any kind of post--and you all should know I don't even post inflammatory types of things, I try to be level-headed and mature and intelligent in my posts--yet I still feel hesitant at times. I don't really feel like part of the community. I realise I am not exactly the target demographic for this forum (I guess? I'm certainly a minority at any rate), and that's fine, I don't intend to change that, but I do wish people were as open-minded, tolerant, intelligent, well-spoken, and just plain kind as a site of this purpose and reputation should foster. In general, people are such ###### on the internet. I wish this place was a bit different.

I of course do not mean everyone--I have met some great people here as well. I have respect for quite a few folks here and enjoy interacting with them. Unfortunately, though, it is far more common to see the opposite. As with most situations, the good average folks are generally quieter, and the loud extreme minority ruins it for everyone. I don't know, maybe I'm old now and jaded with the younger generation who was entirely raised on the internet and are used to this attitude everywhere, but it'd be great to see this be a fun, helpful, supportive, diverse community.

Edit: forgot my entire second point altogether, which was the quality of news articles, yeah. There seems to be a particular news reporter who goes for quantity over quality, and it really brings things down. There are also one or two veteran reporters who aren't working anymore and I wish they were, they always did a stellar job.

I agree completely with what you said. I myself made a topic on here recently. It was a build log for my new computer and I detailed the assembly with pictures. Although most people were positive to the topic there were quite a few posters (4 or 5) that were negative about it and moderators had to clean the topic twice. All I wanted to do was show people a cool build I had done but some I think through jealousy mostly attacked the cost of the computer. I've posted a few such builds logs on these forums every couple years or so but I won't be doing it again. I also posted the build on overclock3d.net which is another forum I frequent and every post was positive so I think it is definitely an issue with Neowins community and not just people online in general.

Another example of this is teamliquid - you get warned simply for low-content or nonsensical posts, and the banhammer is quite heavy. Despite this - and dare I say, because of this - the community is thriving and the forums are generally a pleasure to read and participate in. A focus on quantity vs quality eventually runs counter to itself as no one is interested in talking with people that make no effort to inform themselves before speaking.

Surely quality must come before quantity, but I think sometimes even a low quality post is okay.

As long as you don't notoriously reply with lolcats everywhere, I think you're doing ok.

Just like with a conversation in real life: if you feel watched too much for your language and your staying on topic at all costs and that everything you say makes complete sense immediately or is regarded as okay quality, then the conversation may drag, because you become silent.

I think, being too strict can't be the answer.

Even if it helped getting "pure quality" at what cost?

Surely a lot of people would be pi**ed as hell to find themselves in a community that is so strict and unwelcoming to their posting behavior that still may be non-harassing and non-derailing, etc...

I think you can't apply community efforts to every community.

I'd rather dig through a couple of BS posts than constantly feeling watched, of course that's just me and obviously you'd be fine with this, however, I think I'd leave this site, as much as it would hurt me.

I cannot stand intolerance and over-strictness, so in that case, I'd be gone because this community always represented other values, which I like.

For a nerd site we're still rather welcoming to lax behavior. (lax, not being lax about manners)

Ban and warning = being rude or respect-less amongst other things to me.

Glassed Silver:mac

Depends on the stories/articles being posted and if they interest me. Also, life gets in the way a lot and every now and then, I like to take a break from technology.

I have noticed a lot of spam posts lately and it seems a lot more people are taking others opinions of something and tossing out insults. Now, I can deal with the spammers but people insulting others or their intolerance towards others opinions makes me not even want to come here and post anymore. Also, people are not reprimanded the same way. I got a warning for calling someone an idiot a couple years back. I have been called names since then dozens of times (and seen others insulted as well) and their posts remain intact and no action taken. I even reported posts for insulting me and no action is taken. This also makes me not want to post at times because if someone is voicing their opinion on something, the last thing they want to be is insulted and then nothing be done about it.

  • Like 1

I think, being too strict can't be the answer.

Even if it helped getting "pure quality" at what cost?

Surely a lot of people would be pi**ed as hell to find themselves in a community that is so strict and unwelcoming to their posting behavior that still may be non-harassing and non-derailing, etc...

The rule is applied intelligently at teamliquid. Different sections are moderated differently - fan clubs or general discussion see relatively little moderation compared to the strategy forum, where every post has to add something constructive to the discussion. Even there, a relatively low-content post that is appropriate and doesn't derail the thread can be tolerated, but the aim is to have threads with a high signal-to-noise ratio.

Personally, I don't care if a community ****es off most people - most people don't want to make any efforts to help build a community and just get attention for nothing based on the interest generated by others: they're leeches, just like on bittorent. And just like on bittorent, too many leeches kill it for everyone else.

We could ban OT threads from the minispy (but not the full spy).

To be honest, most of the OT threads I read are because they're in the minispy.

I only have a few forums in by favourites, and I generally only view those forums (which I do a couple of times per day).

For me, it's because I have no interest in mobile devices or Apple products, and little interest in Windows 8.

I'm the same. There isn't much that's discussed on Neowin that interests me any more - and the threads that do interest me aren't full of the type of discussion we used to have on these forums. Or maybe the type of discussion I want isn't the type that can be had on a site like this.

-- Projects. A community has to have a purpose, or a few. Development projects, whatnot...

-- Give the community a slice of the front page cake. A weekly digest of the best tech discussions in the forums (which I believe you've started doing so lately to an extent), reach out to some of the most knowledgeable members of your community and ask them if they could write an extensive piece on a particular subject, have it on the FP and reward them accordingly... etc.

-- speaking of the front page, have your news team be on IRC around the clock. There are news tips being posted 24/7, interesting discussions and points of views the team can take into account while writing their articles, there's also instant feedback to newly published articles which the authors can react to immediately by amending their pieces accordingly. They don't have to be active on IRC, they just need to lurk, as do a few already (scorpus, JCalfs) even though they don't give credit to tipsters >.> .

+1 to all of these things.

Autopatcher was a great project, and a product of a bad decision by a Microsoft contractor, and as much as some of us wanted Neowin to stand behind it, I guess there wasn't much of a choice.. By the time it almost recovered, the niche in which it operated disappeared. A great community project like that would be brilliant for Neowin.

The Forums seem to be hidden on the site, almost as if it's only driving the member database for front page comments.

And yes, not having newsies on IRC is a real shame. I've asked plenty of times for just that, and been laughed at.

For me it was some "newbies" that came in, ran their mouths, caused drama and made neowin less of what it used to be. Some new members dont like the advice given and just all around bad attitudes.

Oh and a few old members who i used to converse with no longer come.

Unfortunately I just don't have the same time as I once did.

Going from a regular 9-5 job and not having much to do at nights, to a full time job that requires a lot of my personal time as well, which after work I just want to relax (I'm getting old :( )

That's the reason for my departure from staff (in case anyone was wondering). I also just purchased a house and I really need to focus on that and other things that go along with it. Purchasing a new home by yourself isn't an easy task.

Great idea for a thread though. I really miss neowins forums, but I'm highly active on IRC.

Wow... reading this thread makes me a little sad how we all share why we are so disappointed in the place that I guess still many of us like or even adore to some extend.

I think this thread got so popular in no time for a reason, but just like with a good "normal" thread you'd find here, I guess we need to focus - by topic - on the good things, too.

Although this thread has a lot of constructive potential, I think it's very important to stress what we like, too.

When you change things, it's all to easy to see the shadows, but working on getting shadowed areas of the dance floor lit imposes the risk of shadowing other parts once well light.

Glassed Silver:mac

A bunch of stuff in nice neat paragraphs.

That's a shame too, as I consider you one of greater posters here on this site. Not trying to keep ya here or anything, just giving credit where it's due.

Another thing is that the members are very rude on here.... I wanted to build an Aol Clone and instead got trashed when I made the topic..... then when I responded to one of the people calling them an idiot I got warned even though the other persons comment was worse..... Bias much?

Trying to handle situations like this won't end well for you. Two wrongs don't make a right. If people are harassing you and such, just report them and let the staff sort it out. This is the general ruling for many places. Hell, even World of Warcraft for example: someone insults you, you insult them back and report them, both parties will be warned. There is no bias in this, it's just how it goes.

---

Regarding some of the suggestions for moderation, I do believe extra moderation couldn't hurt. Just make it stricter in areas that would warrant it, and less so in more general areas. I mean, Something Awful has some strict ass rules compared to other sites, but their community is of solid quality. I'm not saying the way they run things would work here... but rules such as this would be very welcome:

Low Content Posts: Please do not make posts containing no content (ie, "first post," "hello, I'm new here," etc.). These just litter up the forums and with over 100,000 registered users, we need to eliminate these as much as possible. If you do not like a thread, then just vote it a "1" and move on; replies consisting solely of trolling fall into this category. As a general rule, write as if you were speaking in real life to another human being. Do not use any catchphrases, memes, internet slang, or any other crap that makes you look like a 12-year old.

[...]

I'm not saying the way they run things would work here... but rules such as this would be very welcome:

"[...] Do not use any catchphrases, memes, internet slang, or any other crap that makes you look like a 12-year old."

No memes or internet slang?

I'm expressing my astonishment in the "proper" way then now:

de f*q?

A community can take that I'm sure.

If the thread derailed into a meme posting thread, then yes, something needs to be done, but clearly providing a pic or common joke for some laughs can't be bad.

If it's not harassing or patronizing (even then, if you include a wink and show respect, no offense should be taken) then it's good to go imho.

If you don't share the humor and ban it, then expect me to leave such a community if I find myself edging with such moderation, which by what I read seems rather facist-esque to me.

No offense, it might be that it doesn't work in such a harsh way over there, I'm not a member of them so I don't know how it's enforced and what the thresholds are, but the rule as it is written in your excerpt can be extended to menstrual moderation. :laugh:

Glassed Silver:mac

I find myself gravitating towards Twitter and Reddit for my technology news as of recent. Neowin news articles hold little for me, as i'll usually have read about it somewhere else before it's posted on Neowin. I also find that the forum topics become flame fests. I am interested in Windows 8 news, but all "discussions" on it turn into vicious attacks by Metro lovers and haters against each other. I want to read a discussion, not about how ___ is a tasteless idiot for not loving/hating the same things they do.

This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Posts

    • All these CEOs got the biggest boners thinking about firing employees for AI. Turned out it was just a wet dream.
    • And the fact that the majority of people from Poland are white European Christians while the people you are complaining about in post after post are not is just a coincidence... Every sentence in your post I am replying to is racist nonsense. None of it is actually based on any facts whatsoever. All immigrants are seeking a better life too. It's literally the only reason they would risk everything and leave their homes, families, and homeland. They are working and contributing to the economy too, as you even admit. They get the same benefits your partner did AND that YOU are eligible for as well. That is one of the key things of the EU and a mark of a civilization. That is the definition of a society where everyone is given a chance, treated equally and fairly, and is judged by the content of their character, not their different skin color or which version of ignorant superstitious nonsense their parents lied about as children. Racists around the world said the same things about the Irish and Jews and Poles (like your partner) and...every other immigrant movement over the centuries. What's your family's heritage, by the way? Were your ancestors lied about with racist fearmongering crapola by self-entitled locals the same way as you are now? If someone like that said the same things about all people from Poland, like your partner, would they be right? Or would you want them to judge your partner based on who they actually were, not where they just happened to come from?
    • Again, this is an irrelevant attempt to attack the messenger. The truth does not require any justification.
    • Removed the blue and underline as you did not post a link. This would also  be considered spamming.
    • Why it's almost impossible to produce a smartphone in the United States by Hamid Ganji If you look at the back of some Apple products, you can see the famous phrase “Designed by Apple in California, Assembled in China.” This phrase appears on products from one of the largest smartphone brands in the United States. These products are designed in the U.S., but their manufacturing takes place in China, India, Vietnam, or even Brazil. But why can’t Apple, as one of the largest American tech companies, produce its iPhones on U.S. soil? The idea for this topic came to me after the Trump Foundation launched a smartphone called the T1 and claimed that it was designed and built with American values in mind. However, this claim did not last long, as it was revealed that Trump’s phone was actually a rebranded HTC U24 Pro, with only a gold case and minor internal component changes. You see? Even a phone that is supposed to represent American values is manufactured in China. With a gross domestic product (GDP) exceeding $32 trillion, the United States is currently the world’s largest economy, while China ranks second with around $20 trillion. On the other hand, the United States is by a wide margin the global leader in various technological fields, and American companies spend hundreds of billions of dollars annually on research and development. From Apple and Google to Microsoft, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and others, American tech and industrial giants lead their foreign competitors in many sectors. The United States also has no shortage of smartphone brands. Apple, Google, and Motorola are among the major brands in the smartphone market, collectively holding a significant share. However, the vast majority of their products are manufactured outside the United States. So why is it that the world’s largest economy, home to the most advanced technology companies and industrial powers, cannot produce a smartphone on its own soil? Let’s explore this question together. Even threats to impose tariffs won’t work After Trump entered the White House as the 47th President of the United States, his administration adopted strict tariff policies. One of these policies was the imposition of a 25% tariff on smartphones manufactured outside the United States. Trump said he “had a little problem” with Apple CEO Tim Cook over producing smartphones outside the U.S. So he thought that threatening a 25% tax on imported phones might force Apple to bring manufacturing back to the United States. “I have long ago informed Tim Cook of Apple that I expect their iPhones that will be sold in the United States of America will be manufactured and built in the United States, not India, or anyplace else,” Trump wrote on Truth Social. Image via The White House Although Apple currently manufactures some of the iPhone’s chips in the United States with TSMC's help, it still shows no willingness to shift full iPhone production to the country. At the time, renowned Apple supply chain analyst Ming-Chi Kuo wrote on X, “In terms of profitability, it’s way better for Apple to take the hit of a 25% tariff on iPhones sold in the US market than to move iPhone assembly lines back to the US.” However, manufacturing a smartphone in the United States is not as easy as it might seem, and many technical and economic barriers are involved. The lack of necessary manufacturing hubs There is a clear reason why many companies prefer to manufacture their products in China. China has established itself as the main global manufacturing hub for international companies, and over the past few decades, large contract manufacturers have emerged there, allowing companies like Apple to outsource production. One such example is Foxconn, which also manufactures some Apple products in India. Building the infrastructure required to produce smartphones in the United States would require tens of billions of dollars in new investment. Factories would need to be built, essential manufacturing equipment would have to be installed, and, most importantly, a skilled workforce capable of operating these systems would need to be recruited and trained. The United States currently lacks the core infrastructure needed to manufacture smartphones, and for this reason, many companies prefer to outsource production to Chinese contractors rather than spend tens of billions of dollars to build that infrastructure, which is significantly more economically efficient. Additionally, building such infrastructure in the United States could take up to a decade, ultimately leading to a significant increase in the product's final price for consumers. Shortage of trained labor in the U.S. compared to China Decades of serving as a global manufacturing hub have allowed China to build a massive talent pool in the production sector that is almost unmatched worldwide. Today, if a company chooses to manufacture its products in China, it can be confident that the workers involved in production have years of experience in their respective roles and are capable of producing high-quality goods with minimal errors. Even if we assume that tens of billions of dollars were invested in building smartphone manufacturing infrastructure in the United States, finding skilled workers would remain highly challenging. Apple CEO Tim Cook visiting the iPhone 6 assembly line in China in 2014. Image: Tim Cook on X In a 2015 interview on CBS’s 60 Minutes, Tim Cook said the main reason Apple isn’t producing in the US is a lack of skills. "China put an enormous focus on manufacturing, in what you and I would call vocational kind of skills. The US over time began to stop having as many vocational kinds of skills. I mean you could take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in the room that we're currently sitting in. In China you would have to have multiple football fields,” Cook said. Also, in 2017, at the Fortune Global Forum in Guangzhou, Cook once again emphasized the importance of highly skilled Chinese workers. “China has moved into very advanced manufacturing, so you find in China the intersection of craftsman kind of skill, and sophisticated robotics and the computer science world. That intersection, which is very rare to find anywhere, that kind of skill, is very important to our business because of the precision and quality level that we like. The thing that most people focus on if they’re a foreigner coming to China is the size of the market, and obviously, it’s the biggest market in the world in so many areas. But for us, the number one attraction is the quality of the people,” Apple CEO said. Higher labor costs in the United States Producing almost any product in the United States is more expensive than in many other countries, and one of the main reasons is the higher cost of labor in the U.S. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, median weekly earnings of full-time workers in the United States were $1,235 in the first quarter of 2026. Meanwhile, the average annual salary in China's private sector in 2025 was RMB 71,590 (US$9,961). In many parts of the world, the weekly wage of an American worker is equivalent to several months of income. Another important factor to consider is that in the United States, the workforce capable of working on a smartphone assembly line is highly specialized and therefore commands higher-than-average wages. According to an estimate by Bank of America, producing an iPhone in the U.S. is technically possible, but “iPhone cost can increase 25% purely on higher labor cost in the U.S.” However, this 25% increase applies only if final assembly is performed in the United States while components are still sourced from China or elsewhere. In this case, the price of a base iPhone would rise from $799 to around $1,000. But in another scenario, if Apple were to produce the required components for the iPhone within the United States, production costs could increase by more than 90%. Trump’s dream for a “Made in the USA” iPhone might never come true In a free-market capitalist economy, one of the primary responsibilities of any CEO is to maximize profit. Using Apple as an example, Tim Cook’s role is to maximize the company’s profits so that it can fund research and development for new products and invest in areas such as artificial intelligence, while also keeping shareholders satisfied. Therefore, it is entirely understandable that Apple would choose not to bring its manufacturing back to the United States and instead keep production in countries where labor is cheaper, and products can be manufactured at a lower cost, thereby maximizing its profit margins. What is your opinion about manufacturing smartphones in the United States? If you are an American citizen, would you be willing to pay hundreds of dollars more for a smartphone made domestically in the USA? Let us know in the comments.
  • Recent Achievements

    • Conversation Starter
      jessse3334 earned a badge
      Conversation Starter
    • Reacting Well
      JuvenileDelinquent earned a badge
      Reacting Well
    • One Month Later
      Excellence2025 earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • Week One Done
      Excellence2025 earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • Week One Done
      flexorcist earned a badge
      Week One Done
  • Popular Contributors

    1. 1
      +primortal
      506
    2. 2
      +Edouard
      196
    3. 3
      PsYcHoKiLLa
      153
    4. 4
      Steven P.
      72
    5. 5
      FloatingFatMan
      65
  • Tell a friend

    Love Neowin? Tell a friend!