windows 8 Do you like or hate Windows 8?

[Dot Matrix]

So we're back to the "it's new therefore it must be better" argument? sorry, but no. Not all changes are good. And as long as Microsoft keep forcing Metro into versions of Windows that I use you can guarantee that I'll be doing my utmost to hack it out again until they stop making it look like utter crap and disruptive to my workflow.

Huh?

[Noir Angel]

You seem to be making the argument that because tablets are the current fad that they're going to be sidelining desktop computers, and by extension making the argument that metro is better because it's newer. There's absolutely no rule of computing that says a successful OS needs to be bastardised to look the same on tablets and desktops, why do you think Apple keep to iOS on their tablets rather than bastardising OSX and forcing their desktop users into having a tablet UI?

[Dot Matrix]

You seem to be making the argument that because tablets are the current fad that they're going to be sidelining desktop computers, and by extension making the argument that metro is better because it's newer. There's absolutely no rule of computing that says a successful OS needs to be bastardised to look the same on tablets and desktops, why do you think Apple keep to iOS on their tablets rather than bastardising OSX and forcing their desktop users into having a tablet UI?

If you haven't noticed, but desktop computers have been evolving these past few years. Chances are 5 years from now, I will be running a touch monitor augmented with a Kinect for Windows. Along with a mouse and keyboard. You try using that with Windows XP or 7.

[Noir Angel]

Not really, those products are niche products. Keyboard, mouse, monitor, and tower are still overwhelmingly in the majority of PC sales. I sure as hell will not use a touch screen monitor or kinect. Kinect is just an overblown fad and touchscreens are rubbish for gaming, as a gamer no touchscreen will ever beat the precision of a keyboard and mouse. Nor would I want to type a long letter or essay on a touchscreen.

[Stoffel]

Not really, those products are niche products. Keyboard, mouse, monitor, and tower are still overwhelmingly in the majority of PC sales. I sure as hell will not use a touch screen monitor or kinect. Kinect is just an overblown fad and touchscreens are rubbish for gaming, as a gamer no touchscreen will ever beat the precision of a keyboard and mouse. Nor would I want to type a long letter or essay on a touchscreen.

Why do you see everything so black and white?

Isn't it great that we get all these new input devices?

Why not use your KB + mouse for when you are gaming and Kinect or touch for casual usage of the pc.

It's not one or the other but use the best input for the task at hand.

[Dot Matrix]

Not really, those products are niche products. Keyboard, mouse, monitor, and tower are still overwhelmingly in the majority of PC sales. I sure as hell will not use a touch screen monitor or kinect. Kinect is just an overblown fad and touchscreens are rubbish for gaming, as a gamer no touchscreen will ever beat the precision of a keyboard and mouse. Nor would I want to type a long letter or essay on a touchscreen.

Niche? Tell that to the iPad and Kinect for XBox. I have yet to see a valid reason why the PC cannot evolve past the mouse. I dunno about you, but I think it would be fun to play CoD not while sitting for hours on end, fighting with my mouse, hoping I don't have to make any sudden, sharp moves, but instead by involving myself with the game, putting my reflexes and hand-eye coordination to the test.

[Noir Angel]

Why do you see everything so black and white?

Isn't it great that we get all these new input devices?

Why not use your KB + mouse for when you are gaming and Kinect or touch for casual usage of the pc.

It's not one or the other but use the best input for the task at hand.

Because it is that black and white. Desktop computers aren't tablets, forcing their users to use a tablet UI is dumb. There's nothing I could do on a PC with Kinect that I couldn't do with a keyboard and mouse more quickly. And I can use a keyboard and mouse without waving my arms about like a prat and using up my energy really quickly.

Niche? Tell that to the iPad and Kinect for XBox.

The iPad is a tablet, and I don't even know that many Xbox owners that have a kinect. And as I already pointed out, Apple have the sense not to forcibly infect their desktop products with a tablet UI, they keep the experiences separate.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Robert Scoble on that debate video said that the iPad gave you the absolute BEST possible browsing experience. I disagree completely! While browsing on it works well, it is BY FAR the best experience. The Best experience is still a mouse and keyboard. Just today I was showing some site on my tablet or I was trying to get to some site, and from having to touch the address bar to having to type on the touch screen, I literally said "Oh screw this, god I ...err... god I hate this". Then I grabbed the 17 inch laptop that was sitting next to me and what a breath of fresh air. I had what I was looking for in a FRACTION of the time.

Don't even get me started on replying to posts on Neowin on the iPad. It makes me want to use the iPad as target practice.

[Noir Angel]

A lot of what I do online relies on me being able to type quickly. I can't type quickly on a touchscreen device, therefore no touchscreen device will be the "best" browsing experience for me.

[Dot Matrix]

A lot of what I do online relies on me being able to type quickly. I can't type quickly on a touchscreen device, therefore no touchscreen device will be the "best" browsing experience for me.

And no one is taking physical keyboards away.

[Noir Angel]

Never said they were, but trying to bastardise my computer with a tablet UI still spoils my workflow.

[Ice_Blue]

Never mind that the QuickTask power-user's menu is *only* discoverable by mouse-users (there's no shortcut key combo or touch gesture that can launch it).

Winkey + X :)

[xWhiplash]

Niche? Tell that to the iPad and Kinect for XBox. I have yet to see a valid reason why the PC cannot evolve past the mouse. I dunno about you, but I think it would be fun to play CoD not while sitting for hours on end, fighting with my mouse, hoping I don't have to make any sudden, sharp moves, but instead by involving myself with the game, putting my reflexes and hand-eye coordination to the test.

Your right, the mouse is so horrible. I would rather use touch screen to do my Photoshop touch ups and designs. I would rather have my hands up in the air trying to select a portion of programming code so I can delete or change it. I would love to work with my video production time lines without a mouse.

The mouse is not going anywhere. What is all of this hate on the mouse now? There is nothing better for gaming, programming, video production, graphics design (other than those graphic tablets but I cannot stand those, I prefer my mouse), and audio production than a keyboard + mouse combo.

Really? The minute Windows 8 was released, EVERYBODY started HATING the Start Menu and the mouse it seems. Wow.

[PGHammer]

Your right, the mouse is so horrible. I would rather use touch screen to do my Photoshop touch ups and designs. I would rather have my hands up in the air trying to select a portion of programming code so I can delete or change it. I would love to work with my video production time lines without a mouse.

The mouse is not going anywhere. What is all of this hate on the mouse now? There is nothing better for gaming, programming, video production, graphics design (other than those graphic tablets but I cannot stand those, I prefer my mouse), and audio production than a keyboard + mouse combo.

Really? The minute Windows 8 was released, EVERYBODY started HATING the Start Menu and the mouse it seems. Wow.

Because those that passionately defend it see it as the ONLY interface worth using.

While Windows 8 has better support for touch, it did not abandon (in the least) support for mice, any more than Android has abandoned touch support since the introduction of Honeycomb and mouse support going forward. (The ASUS Eee Transformer Prime - at the very least, the TF-201, and likely all the other Eee models based on the same processor, NVidia's Tegra 3 - supports mice; my cousin, who is an MD - has one and uses the Logitech V220 Cordless with it. However, she uses it in *tandem* with the built-in keyboard and the touch support; not instead of.)

My criticism of Windows 7 is NOT that it's a BAD operating system, but that it gave the KEYBOARD short shrift. Windows XP/Vista/7 concentrated so hard on the mouse that the keyboard support got shortchanged - a mistake that, oddly enough, Windows 8 corrects. Mouse support is not lessened, and both touch support and KEYBOARD support are improved - why is improved keyboard support a minus?

[PGHammer]

Your right, the mouse is so horrible. I would rather use touch screen to do my Photoshop touch ups and designs. I would rather have my hands up in the air trying to select a portion of programming code so I can delete or change it. I would love to work with my video production time lines without a mouse.

The mouse is not going anywhere. What is all of this hate on the mouse now? There is nothing better for gaming, programming, video production, graphics design (other than those graphic tablets but I cannot stand those, I prefer my mouse), and audio production than a keyboard + mouse combo.

Really? The minute Windows 8 was released, EVERYBODY started HATING the Start Menu and the mouse it seems. Wow.

The Start menu paradigm has been broken for quite a while - the problem is that until the Start Screen came along, there has not been an alternative to it. And unless you're that much in denial, the Start menu pretty much is mouse-centric - how much of the Start menu is still controllable by the keyboard, for example? Also, the Start menu has absolutely zero touch support.

I've run into systems where the mouse support was borked, for a variety of reasons (both software and hardware). And Windows pre-8 without mouse support is, by all accounts, pretty much unusable.

The Start Screen (and Windows 8) doesn't merely have better touch support than Windows 7 (there, everybody agrees), but better keyboard support as well. That means that a Windows 8 system is still usable if the mouse craps out - for any reason (dead battery, software driver/utility failure, hardware failure, etc.) - can Windows 7, Vista, or even XP say that?

[trag3dy]

Niche? Tell that to the iPad and Kinect for XBox. I have yet to see a valid reason why the PC cannot evolve past the mouse. I dunno about you, but I think it would be fun to play CoD not while sitting for hours on end, fighting with my mouse, hoping I don't have to make any sudden, sharp moves, but instead by involving myself with the game, putting my reflexes and hand-eye coordination to the test.

lol wut - if you're talking about hand & eye co ordination then nothing will be more precise than a mouse that has pixel perfect precision. You're trying to say the god awful motion tracking of the kinect is more precise? Or that touch screen monitors which have a response time to input commands that you can measure in seconds will be good for gaming? If that is so then any further argument you have is officially invalid. There is a reason why fps games on the consoles have aim assist in them when their pc counterparts don't. That should be a big indicator to you.

I really love how you're trying to convince yourself that you're right though. To anyone else who compares those input types objectively you just look like a giant tool. No offense intended, but that is honestly the most ridiculous argument I've ever read for pro windows 8 metro start screen nonsense.

[PGHammer]

lol wut - if you're talking about hand & eye co ordination then nothing will be more precise than a mouse that has pixel perfect precision. You're trying to say the god awful motion tracking of the kinect is more precise? Or that touch screen monitors which have a response time to input commands that you can measure in seconds will be good for gaming? If that is so then any further argument you have is officially invalid. There is a reason why fps games on the consoles have aim assist in them when their pc counterparts don't. That should be a big indicator to you.

I really love how you're trying to convince yourself that you're right though. To anyone else who compares those input types objectively you just look like a giant tool. No offense intended, but that is honestly the most ridiculous argument I've ever read for pro windows 8 metro start screen nonsense.

All he is saying is that the mouse is NOT the be-all and end-all, even with Windows - in the post above yours, I pointed out what happens in XP/Vista/7 when the mouse falls down.

I use a mouse - and a wireless one at that - with my desktop. However, any mouse user can tell you that mice aren't perfect.

What is important is whether or not the operating system is still usable when the mouse craps out - for any reason (even one as simple as battery failure).

Also, there are PC-based (and even PC-only) shooters with aiming assist (the original Unreal Tournmanent and Doom II - neither of which has ever appeared on consoles, both have it).

And what would laser sights be called (any version of Battlefield or Call of Duty)?

You're using emotion in your argument - not logic.

[xWhiplash]

The Start menu paradigm has been broken for quite a while - the problem is that until the Start Screen came along, there has not been an alternative to it. And unless you're that much in denial, the Start menu pretty much is mouse-centric - how much of the Start menu is still controllable by the keyboard, for example? Also, the Start menu has absolutely zero touch support.

I've run into systems where the mouse support was borked, for a variety of reasons (both software and hardware). And Windows pre-8 without mouse support is, by all accounts, pretty much unusable.

The Start Screen (and Windows 8) doesn't merely have better touch support than Windows 7 (there, everybody agrees), but better keyboard support as well. That means that a Windows 8 system is still usable if the mouse craps out - for any reason (dead battery, software driver/utility failure, hardware failure, etc.) - can Windows 7, Vista, or even XP say that?

So you are saying that without touch screens, if your mouse dies, all you can do is sit there and stare? Turn off the computer and go to the store to get a mouse? I can do a lot on Windows 7 without needing my mouse.

Windows Key -> Up Arrow -> Right Arrow bring up All Programs -> Down arrow -> Enter to open a folder -> Enter to open a program/file/whatever.

Really, I have gone without using a mouse at all to set up even Windows Vista (Windows Key + type in Windows Update and press enter, blah blah). So to say Vista and 7 and not usable if the mouse craps out is not a valid argument.

Lets not forget about the superbar shortcuts (Windows Key + Number) to launch a pinned program.

[trag3dy]

All he is saying is that the mouse is NOT the be-all and end-all, even with Windows - in the post above yours, I pointed out what happens in XP/Vista/7 when the mouse falls down.

I use a mouse - and a wireless one at that - with my desktop. However, any mouse user can tell you that mice aren't perfect.

What is important is whether or not the operating system is still usable when the mouse craps out - for any reason (even one as simple as battery failure).

Also, there are PC-based (and even PC-only) shooters with aiming assist (the original Unreal Tournmanent and Doom II - neither of which has ever appeared on consoles, both have it).

And what would laser sights be called (any version of Battlefield or Call of Duty)?

You're using emotion in your argument - not logic.

You can control the start menu with you keyboard 100% without using your mouse. Sure it might not be as fast as using a mouse but you can do it. You guys are just trying to create your arguments to suite your opinion and make it sound like you're using facts when you don't even appear to know what you're talking about. Meanwhile, I'm never claimed my dislike for the start screen was anything other than my opinion. And you guys keep trying to invent these nonsense reasons why you think we should think it's the amazing thing you think it is.

And the rest is just funny. Unreal Tournament? Doom 2? Really? Also, laser sights? I really have no idea what you're trying to get at there.

P.S. I do not want touch support in my desktop OS and couldn't care less for it. It's a useless feature to me and seems very inefficient to use. Please note, that is my opinion and I'm not trying to convince anyone else of that.

[PGHammer]

You can control the start menu with you keyboard 100% without using your mouse. Sure it might not be as fast as using a mouse but you can do it. You guys are just trying to create your arguments to suite your opinion and make it sound like you're using facts when you don't even appear to know what you're talking about. Meanwhile, I'm never claimed my dislike for the start screen was anything other than my opinion. And you guys keep trying to invent these nonsense reasons why you think we should think it's the amazing thing you think it is.

And the rest is just funny. Unreal Tournament? Doom 2? Really? Also, laser sights? I really have no idea what you're trying to get at there.

P.S. I do not want touch support in my desktop OS and couldn't care less for it. It's a useless feature to me and seems very inefficient to use. Please note, that is my opinion and I'm not trying to convince anyone else of that.

You don't have to use something just because it's there.

That is the entire thrust of my argument - which I have, in fact, tried to back up with my own usage patterns (and especially of WinRT).

Nobody says that you HAVE to use WinRT applications - haven't I said, more than once, that I, for the most part, don't use any?

My point is that *aim assistance* in reference to shooters is, at best, subjective - not objective. Or in real life, for that matter. (Laser sights are not just commonplace in the military, but in the real world as well - examples can be found on BOTH sides of the law in the US.) If it's not illegal (in terms of the rules OR the law), it will be used by some (not necessarily by you) - why jump all over those that CHOOSE to use it? Don't hate the feature just because it's there (and you don't use it).

[Dot Matrix]

Your right, the mouse is so horrible. I would rather use touch screen to do my Photoshop touch ups and designs.

You mean like my brother does on his iPad? ;)

[trag3dy]

You don't have to use something just because it's there.

That is the entire thrust of my argument - which I have, in fact, tried to back up with my own usage patterns (and especially of WinRT).

Nobody says that you HAVE to use WinRT applications - haven't I said, more than once, that I, for the most part, don't use any?

My point is that *aim assistance* in reference to shooters is, at best, subjective - not objective. Or in real life, for that matter. (Laser sights are not just commonplace in the military, but in the real world as well - examples can be found on BOTH sides of the law in the US.) If it's not illegal (in terms of the rules OR the law), it will be used by some (not necessarily by you) - why jump all over those that CHOOSE to use it? Don't hate the feature just because it's there (and you don't use it).

If you don't have to use it then what is it's purpose? If the change is so amazing and is the way of the future but you can bypass it's use completely then honestly, what is the point? That doesn't even make any sense and is just change for the sake of change. We're talking about on desktop computers here, not tablets so don't bring those up. I don't get how you can argue for something that you claim you don't even have to use.

As for the other.. comparing a laser sight on a gun in real life to aim assist in a game on the pc..I don't even know where to start. They are completely different. And I wasn't "jumping all over those that choose to use it" as you put it. I was just pointing out that there is a reason games don't have aim assist on the pc and that is because the mouse is a more precise input device than touch screen, motion controls, or console controllers. That is a fact and will remain that way for a quite a few more years at least.

[Daveski]

If you don't have to use it then what is it's purpose? If the change is so amazing and is the way of the future but you can bypass it's use completely then honestly, what is the point?

Yes, that's the $64 000 000 question isn't it?

[sanctified Veteran]

I understand the functionality. I just don't agree with the design. I love minimalism, but Windows 8 went overboard with it.

[migo]

I understand the functionality. I just don't agree with the design. I love minimalism, but Windows 8 went overboard with it.

If they're going to go overboard with something, I'm glad it's minimalism. It's much easier to scale back from that than to scale back from going overboard with complexity (the direction OSX is taking with Lion and Mountain Lion).