Mountain Lion = ....meh?

[.Neo]

For some reason you're thinking of Vista while I was very clearly talking about 7. It's not about the thumbnails, it's the preview that peek gives you.

And each individual window is still smaller than what you see with peek. If you have 10 Word documents open, App Expose is useless.

No, I'm talking Windows 7.

You can say in most scenarios it isn't needed, but that's just because you don't work with a lot of text. With lots of text, particularly with multiple versions of the same document, you need peek. That's what it was designed for. Nothing Apple has come up with (nor anyone in the Linux community) comes close to the functionality and convenience of peek.

So now you're telling us you've become a telepath and know what it is I'm doing without checking? I deal with insane amounts of text on a daily basis. There goes that argument. When using App Expos? you can either just check the window labels underneath the window to easily identify what you're looking at or in the "worst case" hit space. You thinking that's apparently extremely inconvenient is your thing really and something I can't identify myself with at all.

That attitude you've got is very clearly driven by your experience with Expose, rather than your experience with Peek.

I use both operating systems on a daily basis. In the end I don't see how hitting space or checking the labels is much of an inconvenience compared to hovering and waiting for a window to take focus.

[migo]

No, I'm talking Windows 7. What preview? (See end of my post)

You clearly haven't used Windows 7 extensively (I would say at all) if you have to even ask that question. Next time you're at a Windows 7 computer. Open up WordPad 4 times, copy and paste lorem ipsum into each one, and make a few different changes to each one. Then open up a browser. Then hoover your mouse over the WordPad icon. 4 thumbnails will pop up, hoover hour mouse over the thumbnails, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

Just as an aside. Here's how the live taskbar thumbnails in Windows 8 compare to the Application Expos? previews on OS X with 10 Word documents open on a small screen (i.e. 1280x800):

[migo]

Yeah, sadly Windows 8 takes a step back in that department (although you still keep the Windows 7 functionality in desktop mode, which is more than can be said for the elimination of spaces and expose in Lion).

[.Neo]

You clearly haven't used Windows 7 extensively (I would say at all) if you have to even ask that question. Next time you're at a Windows 7 computer. Open up WordPad 4 times, copy and paste lorem ipsum into each one, and make a few different changes to each one. Then open up a browser. Then hoover your mouse over the WordPad icon. 4 thumbnails will pop up, hoover hour mouse over the thumbnails, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I corrected my post since I figured out what you meant. Again, I don't see how hitting space or checking the labels is much of an inconvenience compared to hovering and waiting for a window to take focus. The only thing I can agree on is that you should only have to press space once with other windows automatically enlarging when you shift your cursor towards them.

Yeah, sadly Windows 8 takes a step back in that department (although you still keep the Windows 7 functionality in desktop mode, which is more than can be said for the elimination of spaces and expose in Lion).

The first implementation of Spaces was way too complex and took way too much time to set up. It's also a feature Windows lacks altogether. In the end you're still able to assign different apps to different Spaces, the method is just different. Anyway, in OS X Mountain Lion you have the option to disable Mission Control's "group windows by application" basically restoring Expos? to its former glory. No need to dwell on that. Right know you're pulling things left and right into the debate just to make whatever point it is you're trying to make about OS X vs Windows.

Desktop features are irrelevant when using Metro apps. Quite frankly it's insane the end-user has to deal with two completely different interface paradigms within the same operating system.

[shifts]

Hyper dock for mac is kinda like peek from what I'm sensing from all the hub and hub of that chat.

If ML is just another "service pack" how do people describe the 720mb (there or thereabouts) OS updates that come in far more often than windows service packs?

Lets look at this another way. Would people rather pay $25 over 4 years for an OS update that incremental yet builds up to a bigger picture or more for something that appears different yet fundamentally works the same?

On the other hand you can say that Apple could be the new m$ with keeping things the same with small moves forward and not going down a whole UI overhaul.

For me right now a nice gradual transition works for myself until things get figured out. Just because something works on a phone doesn't always translate into a touch / metro interface...yet. Not to say it wont just.

Back to ML. A week in, things still feel zippy even with a load of installs and the introduction of old time machine imports.

Speech and dictation has taken a MAJOR nosedive since using a decent microphone (samson meteor mic) to the point I've stopped using it, even tho its just 2 simple key pressses away.

What else have I noticed. Well I dont like the stupid and quite frankly 80's looking progress bar in safari whilst a page loads. It lacks any time of sharpness I expect from Apple.

Mail has a few new animations and graphics to show when you've grouped emails. Loads a lot faster from first impressions and I;ve tried to bog things down with 7 accounts.

iTunes SEEMS more responsive and now I think on it most apps tend to load with one bounce. It's a clean install so placebo effect could still be in place.

[migo]

I corrected my post since I figured out what you meant. Again, I don't see how hitting space or checking the labels is much of an inconvenience compared to hovering and waiting for a window to take focus.

Once you're having to hit space 5-6 times in a row dozens of times in an hour, it'll get really annoying.

The only thing I can agree on is that you should only have to press space once with other windows automatically enlarging when you shift your cursor towards them.

Or just not hit space at all. There's nothing stopping Apple from implementing this functionality, aside from the fact that a finger isn't capable of hovering (same problem with flash games that made use of mouseover not working on tablets and phones) and they want to drive everyone to using touch screens.

The first implementation of Spaces was way too complex and took way too much time to set up.

But once it's set up to my liking, it was a lot more efficient than Mission Control. Plus there was no good reason they couldn't let me keep spaces and use it instead of MC.

It's also a feature Windows lacks altogether.

That's beside the point.

In OS X Mountain Lion you have the option to disable Mission Control's "group windows by application" basically restoring Expos? to its former glory. No need to dwell on that. Right know you're pulling things left and right into the debate just to make whatever point it is you're trying to make about OS X vs Windows.

I'm not pulling things left and right. For what Peek does well, it's superior to any implementation OSX has ever had. I've been very consistent in that stance from the beginning. The only reason you think I'm pulling things in randomly is because you didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

Desktop features are irrelevant when using Metro apps.

For the next few years, people will definitely be using a lot of desktop apps. Especially considering Word isn't a Metro app, and Peek is incredibly useful in Workd.

Quite frankly it's insane the end-user has to deal with two completely different interface concepts within the same operating system.

You mean like OSX and Classic?

[shifts]

Has anyone noticed that when you right click on flash content the video stops yet the audio carries on (trying to stop a decent thread heading into lion v win 8 _

[.Neo]

Once you're having to hit space 5-6 times in a row dozens of times in an hour, it'll get really annoying.

You don't have to. Check the labels and you'll generally know what you're looking at.

Or just not hit space at all. There's nothing stopping Apple from implementing this functionality, aside from the fact that a finger isn't capable of hovering (same problem with flash games that made use of mouseover not working on tablets and phones) and they want to drive everyone to using touch screens.

Like I said, I agree with you that at the very most you should hit space once and with other windows enlarging automatically when shifting the cursor. Beyond that I asked myself (and posted my thoughts here on the forum) back in the OS X Snow Leopard days why App Expos? isn't just automatically triggered when hovering over a Dock icon for a second or two.

But once it's set up to my liking, it was a lot more efficient than Mission Control. Plus there was no good reason they couldn't let me keep spaces and use it instead of MC.

People simply didn't use the feature because of its complexity. Currently you can still create multiple Spaces and assign apps to it, just through Mission Control/Dock instead of System Preferences.

That's beside the point.

It's not once you start dragging it into an OS X vs Windows debate. On top of that Spaces is still there and Mission Control now has the option to ungroup windows. Expos? is back.

I'm not pulling things left and right. For what Peek does well, it's superior to any implementation OSX has ever had. I've been very consistent in that stance from the beginning. The only reason you think I'm pulling things in randomly is because you didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

I was referring to what you said about Spaces and Expos? (the latter boils down to grouping of windows). Microsoft axed its functionality within Windows 8's Metro interface. Instead of leaving things at it being a step back vs Windows 7 you dragged Apple's decision to change Spaces and Mission Control vs Expos? into it. Something that has nothing to do with Aero Peek.

You mean like OSX and Classic?

Classic was there for compatibility reasons for older apps only, was dead otherwise and completely optional. Removing the Mac OS 9 system folder from your Mac meant for all intents and purposes no more Classic. Microsoft on the other hand is keeping the desktop alive as a fully integrated part of Windows 8. Apart from OneNote Office 2013 won't run in Metro and it's extremely questionable whether other larger app suites will switch to it anytime soon. Nice try, but it's a totally different story.

PS The really, really funny part? The same year Mac OS X Cheetah was released (2001) Microsoft released a native version of Office for it. Apparently they don't feel their own Windows user base deserves the same treatment.

For the next few years, people will definitely be using a lot of desktop apps. Especially considering Word isn't a Metro app, and Peek is incredibly useful in Workd.

Thanks for confirming the above.

[Rudy]

Has anyone noticed that when you right click on flash content the video stops yet the audio carries on (trying to stop a decent thread heading into lion v win 8 _

Just tried using YouTube and the video and the audio kept going just fine (using Safari)

[.Neo]

I just wanted to add I really, really dislike the App Store:

- It's slow

- Doesn't fully respect the system language

- Some apps keep saying "Update" while they're the latest version already

- I don't always get a notification when updates are available

- Sometimes it keeps asking me to download and install system updates when it already did that

- I have the feeling downloading and installing goes slower

- No way to force the re-download of an app. Holding down option doesn't work anymore in OS X Mountain Lion.

After iTunes I guess I have a new build-in app I hate.

[PyX]

I just wanted to add I really, really dislike the App Store:

1- It's slow

2- Doesn't fully respect the system language

3- Some apps keep saying "Update" while they're the latest version already

4- I don't always get a notification when updates are available

5- Sometimes it keeps asking me to download and install system updates when it already did that

6- I have the feeling downloading and installing goes slower

7- No way to force the re-download of an app. Holding down option doesn't work anymore in OS X Mountain Lion.

After iTunes I guess I have a new build-in app I hate.

1- Yes. It?s incredible how slow the updates appear. Other than that, it?s not slower than on Lion.

2- It took a week before the App went in French on my computer. It?s as if the toolbar in the App Store application was in fact a website, because I never updated my App Store and I have the feeling of a website when I click on a button.

3- Doesn?t happen here.

4- Me neither. And yes, it should definitely be linked with the Notifications Center.

5- Doesn?t happen here.

6- Doesn?t happen here.

7- Can?t help you, I never did that.

Did you do a clean install ? Even then, I did not. Your problems are rather strange.

[migo]

You don't have to. Check the labels and you'll generally know what you're looking at.

Clearly you're not doing the kind of work where that is insufficient.

People simply didn't use the feature because of its complexity. Currently you can still create multiple Spaces and assign apps to it, just through Mission Control/Dock instead of System Preferences.

The spaces in Mission control aren't as consistent as in SL, which is actually the same problem the dock has with consistent location of various icons.

It's not once you start dragging it into an OS X vs Windows debate. On top of that Spaces is still there and Mission Control now has the option to ungroup windows. Expos? is back.

You're the one who dragged it into an OSX vs Windows debate. I was comparing similar paths that Apple was taking with Lion and Mountain lion to what MS was taking with Windows 8.

[DeadEndAccount]

I have to admit when I first saw Windows 8 by itself I was a bit ho hum when compared to Mountain Lion. For me Mountain Lion was more of a known quantity and running since it GM'ed I've been pretty happy with it but things started to change with the announcement of Office 2013 and the the future of Microsoft's cloud computing direction with Mountain Lion now look pretty bland and lifeless. Not that I'm expecting a major change but with the cutting off of old models by Apple (not a concern for me now but it is a concern for me if in 2-3 years I'm told that my computer is too old even though it is perfectly useful - pushing an arbitrary requirement for a Retina display or something like that), the improvements of Windows 8 and Microsoft Office 2013, the deliver of Windows Phone 8 and Windows RT devices, and the general improvement in the quality of PC laptops/desktops (looking at the recent Lenovo Thinkpad/ThinkStation range) - it is very tempting to move in the direction towards Windows 8/Office 2013 unless Apple really get their act together especially when it comes to software and addressing long standing operation system bugs that annoy users and developers alike.

[shifts]

Just tried using YouTube and the video and the audio kept going just fine (using Safari)

Interesting, don't suppose you can try the same in FireFox? I'm in the middle of an experiement of keeping a mac flash free :D

[.Neo]

Clearly you're not doing the kind of work where that is insufficient.

You don't have a clue about what I do so best would be to just stop assuming all kinds of things.

The spaces in Mission control aren't as consistent as in SL, which is actually the same problem the dock has with consistent location of various icons.

You do know you can uncheck "Automatically rearrange spaces based on most recent use"?

You're the one who dragged it into an OSX vs Windows debate. I was comparing similar paths that Apple was taking with Lion and Mountain lion to what MS was taking with Windows 8.

Except Expos? has been restored to its former glory, something you kept complaining about. With Spaces I have the feeling you're unaware about a certain preference, but can't be sure.

[.Neo]

1- Yes. It?s incredible how slow the updates appear. Other than that, it?s not slower than on Lion.

2- It took a week before the App went in French on my computer. It?s as if the toolbar in the App Store application was in fact a website, because I never updated my App Store and I have the feeling of a website when I click on a button.

3- Doesn?t happen here.

4- Me neither. And yes, it should definitely be linked with the Notifications Center.

5- Doesn?t happen here.

6- Doesn?t happen here.

7- Can?t help you, I never did that

Did you do a clean install ? Even then, I did not. Your problems are rather strange.

Nope. The other day it asked me to update various system voices to version 2.0, so I said OK. The App Store started downloading the packages, installed them and finished installing them. The next day it asked me to install those exact system voices, again. You're right it isn't any slower that the App Store on previous versions of OS X. The thing is though on OS X Mountain Lion we have to deal with it on a more frequent basis since it now handles system updates.

Yesterday my iMac also crawled to a halt when it pretty much ran out of memory. Hardly any apps were running, I have 8 GB installed and there was only 400 MB of free memory left. My internal HDD has 733,70 GB free, so it can't be that either. :s Never had these problems when running the DP3-4. I'll deal with it another week and then do an erase & install.

This is exactly why I never do upgrades? :p

[Vice]

You're obviously someone who uses a large screen. I've always been frustrated with OSX' handling of Expose (although it is useful in the absence of anything else) because it's really pants on laptop screens. Windows 7's peek feature does the same thing, but is far more suited to small screens. That's actually something I'm a bit frustrated with in Windows 8 Metro. I wouldn't mind having peek back while using a mouse (it's obvious why it's not usable with touch). In that aspect it really is like Snow Leopard to Lion going from Expose and Spaces to Mission Control.

I've always found Expose to be perfect regardless of the screen size. I used it on a 12" iBook with a 1024x768 display way back in 2004 and I used it on a 15" Powerbook in 2005 and I've used it on 17" MacBook Pros since 2006 to present. I still love and use it just like I did the first time I tried it almost a decade ago on my iBook.

It is a very useful feature and if you find it hard to make the windows out then it may be time for a trip to the opticians because it's very very easy to see what the content of your open windows are. I usually have about 10 individual windows open from a bunch of applications and I can still clearly make out what each window contains.

[threetonesun]

The App Store is a pile of garbage, not only have I experienced all of the issues .Neo mentioned, but there's the much bigger issue that developers can't push quick updates through it, so you're forced to wait on Apple to approve it while anyone who downloaded the app outside the store already has the update. That's... painfully counter-intuitive.

It's particularly amazing since Linux has had apt-get for over 10 years, and that was a better and often more efficient way to get applications (since it would link dependencies), and was updated at the same time as any web-based downloads (if they even existed).

Also all (or most) of the stuff on Linux is free, so there's no "is it cheaper in the Store, or online?" guessing game that's tied to when you'll get updates, how long the update pricing will last, etc.

[Rudy]

Interesting, don't suppose you can try the same in FireFox? I'm in the middle of an experiement of keeping a mac flash free :D

I will when I get home tonight

4- Me neither. And yes, it should definitely be linked with the Notifications Center.

It does....I didn't want to update iPhoto (I don't use it) and after a few days it started sending notifications lol

[migo]

You don't have a clue about what I do so best would be to just stop assuming all kinds of things.

I can assume it just fine. If you're satisfied with Expose, you're not doing anything that Expose is inadequate for, else you wouldn't be satisfied. It's as simple as that.

[.Neo]

I can assume it just fine. If you're satisfied with Expose, you're not doing anything that Expose is inadequate for, else you wouldn't be satisfied. It's as simple as that.

Did it ever cross your mind I might have more effective workflow than try to cram two hundred untitled windows in a 13-inch screen?

Obviously not.

[migo]

Not that I'm expecting a major change but with the cutting off of old models by Apple (not a concern for me now but it is a concern for me if in 2-3 years I'm told that my computer is too old even though it is perfectly useful - pushing an arbitrary requirement for a Retina display or something like that),

That's the primary reason I'm not interested in buying a Mac anymore, particularly brand new. I'm fine using one as a hand-me down, I didn't have to spend any money on it, but spending $1000+ on a system to find it gets arbitrarily cut off (my Wallstreet couldn't run Panther because it didn't have a USB port, even though it significantly outperformed a Rev A iMac that could run Panther... -_-) is pretty ****ty. Getting legacy software cut off is also annoying, Rosetta worked fine, couldn't Apple have just left it in?

[migo]

Did it ever cross your mind I might have more effective workflow than try to cram two hundred untitled windows in a 13-inch screen?

Obviously not.

They're not untitled. And peek gives the most effective workflow.

[.Neo]

They're not untitled. And in my opinion peek gives the most effective workflow.

Then there shouldn't be much of a problem. Beyond that: Enjoy working with Windows 7.