Isn't Windows 8 the start of something great?

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

You have to remember that techies will always be the more critical of people. I think it's easy for us to become too much 'one way' and not think how easy this interface is to a normal home user.

In my experience, 'normal home users' rely on visual clues far more than techies and have trouble remembering sequences of actions that they are not guided through by simply looking at the screen. It'll be interesting to see how such users adapt to the invisible UI elements in Metro and the continual switching between two very different modes of operation (Desktop vs. Metro).

Of course, you'd assume that MS would have done enough usability testing to already be aware of whether that's an issue... :huh:

[Dot Matrix]

Posters like TheLegendOfMart know this. The same posters are doubtless aware that Android tablets can be *augmented* with keyboards (of the physical sort); I've mentioned the Eee Transformer Prime in the Microsoft Beta threads a few times - the Prime's dock includes a full QWERTY keyboard. In fact, desktops can be augmented with touch - today.

Right. I see people augmenting their tablets all the time with physical hardware. Now, why cannot the desktop act the same way? Doesn't make sense. In fact, having a touch enabled monitor would be beneficial in some cases. I can reach up, and touch something quicker than I can move over, grab the mouse, figure out where the pointer is, and then scroll over to click. Using the Start Screen with touch, even on the desktop, can be quicker than typing to search, and it's certainly faster than clicking through the mess that is the current Start Menu.

[jagowar]

Right. I see people augmenting their tablets all the time with physical hardware. Now, why cannot the desktop act the same way? Doesn't make sense. In fact, having a touch enabled monitor would be beneficial in some cases. I can reach up, and touch something quicker than I can move over, grab the mouse, figure out where the pointer is, and then scroll over to click. Using the Start Screen with touch, even on the desktop, can be quicker than typing to search, and it's certainly faster than clicking through the mess that is the current Start Menu.

Not only that but I think you will see a whole new class of desktop pc.... the ones that can fold down into a something akin to a drafting table. They have already started showing off these kind of devices in their hardware previews but it will take a few years before that gets perfected.

I also think one aspect of this that has not been given enough credit is the radial menu in the onenote app..... To me that is an early demonstration of how you do "complex" apps in metro and if they truly can get that menu honed in there will be no reason to leave the metro ui and most of the complaints will disappear.

[Dot Matrix]

Not only that but I think you will see a whole new class of desktop pc.... the ones that can fold down into a something akin to a drafting table. They have already started showing off these kind of devices in their hardware previews but it will take a few years before that gets perfected.

I also think one aspect of this that has not been given enough credit is the radial menu in the onenote app..... To me that is an early demonstration of how you do "complex" apps in metro and if they truly can get that menu honed in there will be no reason to leave the metro ui and most of the complaints will disappear.

Interesting. Do you have a source for that? I'd love to go take a look at it.

And I agree about the radial menu. Functional and eloquent. OneNote MX will be a killer Metro app.

[jagowar]

Interesting. Do you have a source for that? I'd love to go take a look at it.

And I agree about the radial menu. Functional and eloquent. OneNote MX will be a killer Metro app.

One example...

(1:10:50 if it doesn't skip to the right place automatically)

He said it in the video but they expect even new furniture to be created for these new touch desktops.... Its actually akin to some of the "office of the future" videos they have put out in the past. You can see this as the first step to make those videos a reality.

[Dot Matrix]

He said it in the video but they expect even new furniture to be created for these new touch desktops.... Its actually akin to some of the "office of the future" videos they have put out in the past. You can see this as the first step to make those videos a reality.

Nice. I really like that huge monitor that can fold down into a drawing board.

[PGHammer]

In my experience, 'normal home users' rely on visual clues far more than techies and have trouble remembering sequences of actions that they are not guided through by simply looking at the screen. It'll be interesting to see how such users adapt to the invisible UI elements in Metro and the continual switching between two very different modes of operation (Desktop vs. Metro).

Of course, you'd assume that MS would have done enough usability testing to already be aware of whether that's an issue... :huh:

Who says you even have to switch - unless you want to?

When I switch modes, it's a conscious choice - it is because something is ONLY available in a certain mode. (While iOS *is* heavily touch-biased, that is no longer true of Android 3.x and later, and has - believe it or not - NEVER been true of Windows 8; if anything, it is less true of Windows 8 than of Windows 7 or Vista or XP - the last three are heavily biased in favor of mice - as even the critics of Windows 8 admit.)

If you use primarily - if not exclusively - desktop applications, games, etc., you can stay on the desktop without going anywhere near the StartScreen. The StartScreen itself is a waypoint - or a doorway - between Win32 and WinRT - nothing else.

I go hours and hours without seeing the StartScreen because - other than gaming - I use WinRT for very little. That is because WinRT is barely a 1.0 API, and, due to restrictions either inherent in the API, or in how developers have leveraged the API to date, doesn't fit what I do except in niche cases. That means I still have my Win32 desktop applications/utilities/games/etc - WinRT is largely irrelevant. I played through the entire last BWE of Guild Wars 2 in Windows 8, and I only got interrupted ONCE by the StartScreen - and that was entirely my own fault - a miskeying error. Basically, I don't switch unless I WANT to.

[dangel]

Well said, and that reflects my own experience of using it for several weeks now - it's no blocker for me because of it (it launches apps just as well as 7 and then goes away).

[PGHammer]

Is it because they are moving away from the traditional desktop, its still there but seems like an after thought.

It is more like they are daring to add support for non-traditional interfaces - not just touch-based ones, either. One rather shocking complaint I've seen on other tech-based sites (not Neowin) is that Windows 8 leverages the *keyboard* more than Windows 7. That is, in fact, one big reason I actively prefer Windows 8, to be honest - the vastly improved support for the keyboard. Last I saw, all PCs included keyboards. I can say that XP/Vista/7 were so mouse-biased that it felt that the keyboard was deliberately being rendered near-irrelevant - and that bugged me.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Posters like TheLegendOfMart know this. I would wager that a lot of the folks hating Metro are on portables that lack touch; therefore, because they would HAVE to replace their portable to add it, they choose instead to request the highly improbable, and when the door is (expectedly) slammed in their faces, they react like the fox that can't reach the grapes.

Getting sick of being spoke to like a child by the Microsoft/Metro apologists, just because my opinion differs to yours doesn't mean that you are automatically right.

A touch ui has no place on a desktop computer, who wants to reach across their desk to manipulate the UI, thats completely ignoring the issue of having dirty great oily smudges all over the screen you are trying to work on.

This could have easily been sorted by having the OPTION to disable Metro on devices that do not have touchscreens.

It might be bad for a consistent experience across devices but the people who don't like Metro are hardly going to go and buy Metro apps from Microsoft, they aren't losing anything by giving people a choice.

They are going to lose out more by forcing this **** on people who do not want it.

Surface is going to flop, hard, Surface Pro will just be another niche high end tablet computer that only the rich and trendy will buy, Windows 8 is going to be the next Win ME, Vista.

[windows95isg8]

Most normal users will find the new OS a bit of a problem to work with,it is a big change (Microsoft have said this themselves). I myself have used computers for years, and I was very unhappy with the going in and out of apps feel I got with the operating system. It's got Facebook chat built in also, but as a result I was getting pop ups from the OS while also getting it come up on the Facebook website, something I could not seem to do anything about. I then was like ah ok I will close the website and just let the convo go on via the OS.. Then I had the problem that the OS did not always seem to send the reply was minuets later. The whole system to me feels like a bit of a mess and I can't see why for myself anyways that I need to upgrade to it.

[Dot Matrix]

Getting sick of being spoke to like a child by the Microsoft/Metro apologists, just because my opinion differs to yours doesn't mean that you are automatically right.

A touch ui has no place on a desktop computer, who wants to reach across their desk to manipulate the UI, thats completely ignoring the issue of having dirty great oily smudges all over the screen you are trying to work on.

This could have easily been sorted by having the OPTION to disable Metro on devices that do not have touchscreens.

It might be bad for a consistent experience across devices but the people who don't like Metro are hardly going to go and buy Metro apps from Microsoft, they aren't losing anything by giving people a choice.

They are going to lose out more by forcing this **** on people who do not want it.

Surface is going to flop, hard, Surface Pro will just be another niche high end tablet computer that only the rich and trendy will buy, Windows 8 is going to be the next Win ME, Vista.

There are those that disagree. Again, Metro is more than just a touch UI. It's meant as a dynamic, "immersive" UX. Microsoft wants to move away from the dull, static Windows 95 look. This is Microsoft making a clean break from their old "business oriented" image, to something forward thinking. If you think this is "arrogance" or whatever, than that's your prerogative, but you do not work for Microsoft. Microsoft does, what it wants to do, and if they want to reimagine their services, then they'll do that one way or another. You, as a consumer, have the choice to accept it or not, and if not, than don't buy it. But, one way or another, Microsoft had to act. Windows is loosing out BIG TIME to other platforms and operating systems. The old, tired, Windows 9x UX isn't working out anymore.

[chrisj1968]

what is everyones take on the Blizzard comment about Windows 8? some like it, some don't. I'll wait to see what's coming after 8

[TheLegendOfMart]

There are those that disagree. Again, Metro is more than just a touch UI. It's meant as a dynamic, "immersive" UX. Microsoft wants to move away from the dull, static Windows 95 look. This is Microsoft making a break from their old "business only" image.

I can understand that, I just don't like being spoke to like a halfwit by some of the self righteous Metro is great idiots.

[chrisj1968]

This must be from someone with some sort of vested interest in MS. Since in my allegory here, I'll say MS is a car dealer, I'll go to another dealer because MS just killed the UI because of a "static boring UI" concept from windows95? If it lasted since Windows95, then it must have been great to last soo long. I'll be interested to see what MS sales numbers will be.

[x-byte]

I can understand that, I just don't like being spoke to like a halfwit by some of the self righteous Metro is great idiots.

Too be fair, the problem have been that we have to explain the purpose of Metro and that the Desktop isn't going anywhere to everyone entering the thread. So read the thread and don't toss up old dirt.

[Dot Matrix]

This must be from someone with some sort of vested interest in MS. Since in my allegory here, I'll say MS is a car dealer, I'll go to another dealer because MS just killed the UI because of a "static boring UI" concept from windows95? If it lasted since Windows95, then it must have been great to last soo long. I'll be interested to see what MS sales numbers will be.

If you want to use a car analogy, we can say that Windows 8 is a car the "dealer" augmented with hover circuits (flux capacitor not included).

[Wyn6]

This must be from someone with some sort of vested interest in MS. Since in my allegory here, I'll say MS is a car dealer, I'll go to another dealer because MS just killed the UI because of a "static boring UI" concept from windows95? If it lasted since Windows95, then it must have been great to last soo long. I'll be interested to see what MS sales numbers will be.

If that's the case, then let's just go on using it for the next 50 years. How about the next 100? 200? How long should we use this "great" UI?

[Dot Matrix]

If that's the case, then let's just go on using it for the next 50 years. How about the next 100? 200? How long should we use this "great" UI?

You can only stay the same for so long before the market moves on. Had Microsoft continued with the current Windows 7 UX, eventually Android or even Apple would have overtaken them when they adapt to the new technologies appearing on the market.

[Anthonyd]

Too be fair, the problem have been that we have to explain the purpose of Metro and that the Desktop isn't going anywhere to everyone entering the thread. So read the thread and don't toss up old dirt.

Enough with that BS already plz :/ MS added tons of improvement for the Desktop inside Windows 8, they have said many times that they'll continue to support it for a while and they even included the full Desktop for Windows RT.

[veternan]

ah, No, Windows 8 is not great! Windows 9 will be.

[TheLegendOfMart]

You can only stay the same for so long before the market moves on. Had Microsoft continued with the current Windows 7 UX, eventually Android or even Apple would have overtaken them when they adapt to the new technologies appearing on the market.

Apple hasn't been able to do it in 30 years, Linux hasn't in 20 years. O/S 2, Haiku, Aros, Amiga OS, ReactOS, BeOS, etc.. etc.. even after ME and Vista.

While I concede that tablets are growing in popularity I still think they are just another fad, something to supplement your main computer.

Not putting metro on their desktop OS wouldn't have made Windows any less relevant.

Look at the first version of OSX, fundamentally they haven't changed, its certainly got prettier over the years and gained new features and functionality but Apple know where the line is, sure they have added things from their mobile operating systems to supplement the desktop experience but they haven't just blindly turned OSX into IOS just to try and stay relevant like Microsoft has done with metro.

[johnporter29]

Getting sick of being spoke to like a child by the Microsoft/Metro apologists, just because my opinion differs to yours doesn't mean that you are automatically right.

A touch ui has no place on a desktop computer, who wants to reach across their desk to manipulate the UI, thats completely ignoring the issue of having dirty great oily smudges all over the screen you are trying to work on.

This could have easily been sorted by having the OPTION to disable Metro on devices that do not have touchscreens.

It might be bad for a consistent experience across devices but the people who don't like Metro are hardly going to go and buy Metro apps from Microsoft, they aren't losing anything by giving people a choice.

They are going to lose out more by forcing this **** on people who do not want it.

Surface is going to flop, hard, Surface Pro will just be another niche high end tablet computer that only the rich and trendy will buy, Windows 8 is going to be the next Win ME, Vista.

Agree with you regarding having to reach over your desk to touch the screen and the prospect of having to clean your screen after use everyday to prevent the muck from building up. I won't be dashing out to get a touch screen anytime soon. However on the opposite side of the fence, I don't find Metro all that hard to control using the keyboard and mouse.

I can understand that, I just don't like being spoke to like a halfwit by some of the self righteous Metro is great idiots.

And you believe calling those people idiots isn't been childish in itself?

Both sides of the argument tend to have one sided views of the issue - those who don't like metro don't and are pretty vocal about and the same for the other side - the ones that do like metro are also quite vocal about it - both sides need to accept people have different opinions and have to stop calling each other idiots etc. The people who come on here to get the latest are faced with having to read pages and pages of the same argument time and time again, let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[Dot Matrix]

Apple hasn't been able to do it in 30 years, Linux hasn't in 20 years. O/S 2, Haiku, Aros, Amiga OS, ReactOS, BeOS, etc.. etc.. even after ME and Vista.

While I concede that tablets are growing in popularity I still think they are just another fad, something to supplement your main computer.

Not putting metro on their desktop OS wouldn't have made Windows any less relevant.

Look at the first version of OSX, fundamentally they haven't changed, its certainly got prettier over the years and gained new features and functionality but Apple know where the line is, sure they have added things from their mobile operating systems to supplement the desktop experience but they haven't just blindly turned OSX into IOS just to try and stay relevant like Microsoft has done with metro.

There is nothing to say Apple isn?t working on surpassing Windows on the desktop. They pulled the iPad out from under the rug, which literally beat the entire market upside the head, and killed the netbook segment. Apple can easily pull out a new version of OS X (OS XI?) out from the shadows and do the same.

[Anthonyd]

ah, No, Windows 8 is not great! Windows 9 will be.

Can I borrow your crystal ball to find the lottery number?