valve Valve cranks up Linux gaming, makes it faster than Windows

[Tuishimi]

Why does valve dislike W8? Is there a blog entry from valve about this somewhere? I'd be interested in reading that...

[George P Global Moderator]

Can one even discern 270 FPS vs. 315FPS?!

Nah, after like, 60FPS or w/e it's all BS and epen for GPU makers and so on.

[Noir Angel]

Personally not againt it, I'm all for people running whatever they want (as long as they don't preach their choice as the only choice.) Just don't see it making any real impact, just going to come and go. But hey if I'm wrong that's great, not that it makes a bit of difference to me either way.. pretty unrealistic if anyone expects the major developers to just drop their biggest desktop market, not going to happen.

I don't expect them to drop development for Windows, and they won't do so, Windows is still a massive market for them. I just like having options.

Can one even discern 270 FPS vs. 315FPS?!

Probably not, but in higher end games that 12% framerate increase could have a big difference

[George P Global Moderator]

Why does valve dislike W8? Is there a blog entry from valve about this somewhere? I'd be interested in reading that...

No, but it's simply because Win8 has the Windows Store and Xbox Live integration now, the OS can do much of what one uses Steam for on the PC right now and they don't like it. This whole thing about "lock-in" and "taking our profits" is overblown at this point.

[ahhell]

Can one even discern 270 FPS vs. 315FPS?!

No but that hasn't stopped the sensationalist journalism.

[simplezz]

It amuses me that people are assuming that they're doing it just because they want to pick on poor little Microsoft. Has anyone considered that they actually see a genuine future with gaming on Linux?

I think Valve does see a future for Linux gaming, and with Dell, Asus, and other OEM's getting behind desktop Linux, now's the right time to throw in their lot.

With the introduction of Windows 8 into the mix, OEM's are going to be begging for alternatives, especially since most of them can still remember the Vista debacle. It just needs to be done right this time - no more custom GNU/Linux front ends, just straight forward Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Debian etc. Keep it simple and I think Linux has a good chance of taking some serious marketshare on the desktop.

Whoah, Linux has an app store, that's a "catastrophe" for steam ;-)

It has many ;) The difference being, distro makers aren't tyrannical and don't dictate what can and can't be run on the system like Microsoft's doing with WinRT, and probably the x86 version eventually too.

[threetonesun]

How is cross-platform connectivity or however you want to think of it a bad thing now? Because it comes from MS's store? Is that the single reason this is a problem for people or something? Doesn't steam offer much the same with their Windows and OSX versions and also the connection to the PS3? Honestly some of you, it seems because MS is going to do more of what steam does already it's totally wrong and is going to screw us all over! Look out the sky is falling!

No, Steam offers the ability to play the game on any OS that supports it. I think that's a GREAT idea.

Microsoft is going to use its console presence to steamroll other interests in tablet / phone / PC gaming. Honestly they might not even be that interested in PC gaming beyond things that will tie into the Xbox. They have a captive market, and they're already notorious to deal with (see the Fez fallout), they'll only be worse if they can make more money selling through their service to every screen in your house.

If Steam develops for Linux, that's as open as can be. Microsoft has an interest in making the PC like the Xbox, which is as closed as can be. Is it not clear which side I would support here?

[n_K]

I haven't bothered to read through 8, the first 2 seemed to be full of arguing.

Who cares? It's great for computing. Means games that already support linux will now be allowed on Steam, means more publishers can publish to linux (if they choose to) and means Steam really is cross-platform (windows, mac, ps3, linux)

It runs a bit faster then directx, wahay, but I still don't think the things opengl can do are up to par with the things directx can do but it doesn't matter.

I see this as good news, can't really see why people see this as bad news? Steam makes valve a lot of money, if they want to spend some of that on making steam and their games even more cross-platform, why do you think 'OMG THIS IS SO BAD' ?

[ahhell]

With the introduction of Windows 8 into the mix, OEM's are going to be begging for alternatives, especially since most of them can still remember the Vista debacle.

You do realise that the OEMs were the ones RESPONSIBLE for the Vista debacle. :rolleyes:

OEMs are going to sell based on demand. Dell had a line of machines that shipped with Linux and hardly any sold. It will be a loooooong time before OEMs waste significant resources on selling/supporting Linux based machines. OEMs also LOVE when MS ships a new OS as it helps them sell tons of new PCs.

[Dashel]

I agree with most of your post except the Halo part. Halo was never a PC/Windows-first title. (it was a Mac game in development but as most iPeople tell me Macs are not PCs. :p)

We are talking about Bungie so dual release was assumed. Was never Mac exclusive though if that's what you are trying to say, even though it debuted at Macworld.

The game was initially intended to be released for Mac OS and Microsoft Windows platforms, until Microsoft's purchase of Bungie in 2000 led to the game becoming an Xbox launch title and platform exclusive. Halo went on to become the Xbox's "killer application", selling millions of copies and spawning a billion dollar franchise. - Wiki

And Bungie's thoughts at the time: " A single, powerful, stable platform and a chance to exploit the vagaries of a new system. Programmers love that stuff." - Now where have I heard that before.

This is about enthusiasts, casual gamers are better served by an 'app' store and mobile OS simplicity.

[Colin McGregor]

No, there are people who will NEVER use anything but Windows, just look at any thread involving Linux or OS X, it always devolves to Windows fanboys bashing everything and anything not Windows, performance enhancements like mentioned here are of no concern to them.

I know right. Its a good thing theres no apple or linux trolls. Keep em all on the windows side amiright?

[Max Norris]

The difference being, distro makers aren't tyrannical and don't dictate what can and can't be run on the system like Microsoft's doing with WinRT, and probably the x86 version eventually too.

I keep seeing this thrown around a lot. x86/64 that is, not RT which is a given. Why do people keep making this assumption that Microsoft is suddenly going to drop support for software that's been available to run since the last century? Considering that backwards compatibility has been one of Windows many strengths for years, don't you think that would be akin to financial suicide? Microsoft may have done shady things in the past, but they're not stupid, and arbitrarily telling people "sorry but your stuff won't work any more" is a great way to do just that. If they were to do something that asinine to Windows 9 it would never sell and they know it.

[Noir Angel]

I've been a loyal Windows user for 10 years and the level of sycophancy towards Microsoft amongst a lot of Neowin members shocks even me. Choice is a good thing for consumers, we're here to do what's best for us, not Microsoft.

[ichi]

No but that hasn't stopped the sensationalist journalism.

Again, not everyone will be running the game on a machine with the same specs as the one in the tests. Take 250 FPS from those numbers and see if the difference would matter.

And also, again, it's not a competition. It just proves that games on Linux perform great despite the lack of GPU driver optimization.

[threetonesun]

OEMs are going to sell based on demand. Dell had a line of machines that shipped with Linux and hardly any sold. It will be a loooooong time before OEMs waste significant resources on selling/supporting Linux based machines. OEMs also LOVE when MS ships a new OS as it helps them sell tons of new PCs.

Yeah, in general OEMs sell Linux before a new Windows release to negotiate better terms with MS. Or they sell them to developing countries because they know everyone is going to pirate their software.

The majority of actual Linux uses install it themselves, and probably dual boot.

[George P Global Moderator]

No, Steam offers the ability to play the game on any OS that supports it. I think that's a GREAT idea.

Microsoft is going to use its console presence to steamroll other interests in tablet / phone / PC gaming. Honestly they might not even be that interested in PC gaming beyond things that will tie into the Xbox. They have a captive market, and they're already notorious to deal with (see the Fez fallout), they'll only be worse if they can make more money selling through their service to every screen in your house.

If Steam develops for Linux, that's as open as can be. Microsoft has an interest in making the PC like the Xbox, which is as closed as can be. Is it not clear which side I would support here?

At the end of the day the store and Xbox integration are a choice, one of a few on Windows, you don't like it so you don't have to use it. I'm already a Xbox gamer and I like the integration, I welcome the choice to have that connectivity between my systems. The Fez "fallout" is BS, every console maker charges devs for patches, MS isn't the only one who does this. Fix it with the first free patch you get or pay, it's always been that way. It's stupid for developers to turn around after all this time and make it an issue now like they've been blindsided by it.

And MS can't steamroll anything, Xbox live is integrated into WP and that hasn't helped. On Windows it's just another option, you want steam? Then use steam still, or maybe you want Origin? Or maybe GOG is enough for you? Those all work and will keep on working. Heck, if anything I believe metro apps and winrt is as restricted as it is at the moment because the APIs and framework is new. Long story short I don't see Windows being as closed as you make it sound. Metro and the windows store is just another option on x86-64 hardware. It's only really closed on Windows RT tablets, but that's a different market by itself and by design.

[Dot Matrix]

You do realise that the OEMs were the ones RESPONSIBLE for the Vista debacle. :rolleyes:

Off topic, but yes and no. Microsoft deserves part of the blame there, too.

[Aergan]

Even though gaming on linux would be nice, not every company feels the same way about linux developing just because there isn't moolah$$ to be made there, compared to windows.

Also, stupid question but hey.. If linux is "open" wouldn't cracking/pirating be easier?

There hasn't been a service like Steam on Linux that would deliver content worth paying for.

[HawkMan]

It's a fact. OpenGL runs on virtually every platform, and Microsoft's Direct3D runs on Windows and XBox that's it. COM code isn't portable anywhere. It's a mess of proprietary platform specific lock in.

So you really don't have a clue.

Making a game run in OpenGL does nto make it multiplatform. it doesn't even make the graphic engine multiplatform. You still need to do the actual hard work, the porting of the actual game code.

[BajiRav]

We are talking about Bungie so dual release was assumed. Was never Mac exclusive though if that's what you are trying to say, even though it debuted at Macworld.

The game was initially intended to be released for Mac OS and Microsoft Windows platforms, until Microsoft's purchase of Bungie in 2000 led to the game becoming an Xbox launch title and platform exclusive. Halo went on to become the Xbox's "killer application", selling millions of copies and spawning a billion dollar franchise. - Wiki

And Bungie's thoughts at the time: " A single, powerful, stable platform and a chance to exploit the vagaries of a new system. Programmers love that stuff." - Now where have I heard that before.

This is about enthusiasts, casual gamers are better served by an 'app' store and mobile OS simplicity.

Hmm. IIRC They were a Mac developer and Halo was announced as an exclusive Mac game by Steve Jobs (too lazy to watch that video now and verify).

[ichi]

Making a game run in OpenGL does nto make it multiplatform. it doesn't even make the graphic engine multiplatform. You still need to do the actual hard work, the porting of the actual game code.

No, but OpenGL runs on plenty of platforms while Direct3D only runs on those from MS. As small a percentage of the amount of work that might be, it still makes things easier.

If you apply the same logic to the whole development and don't get tied to platform specific technologies, porting suddently becomes a whole lot much easier.

The point of going multiplatform is planning before developing instead of porting as an afterthough, that's where you cut the work and make things easier.

[George P Global Moderator]

Just to be clear, before someone wants to start flaming me or whatever. I'm cool with linux and linux gaming, if that's what you want go with it. I'm just debating the line of thought that the Windows Store and Xbox Live integration is doom for PC gaming all of the sudden. I don't agree. I think it'll actually help, it's another choice on the list for people to use regardless of the profit model and certification process. Hell, I think every store/marketplace should have a tough certification process anyways, regardless of any profit splits etc, I don't want virus and malware infected things showing up.

[Noir Angel]

Making a game run in OpenGL does nto make it multiplatform. it doesn't even make the graphic engine multiplatform. You still need to do the actual hard work, the porting of the actual game code.

Sure, but it'll make porting a hell of a lot easier than any D3D Windows > Linux OpenGL port would be.

[simplezz]

Why do people keep making this assumption that Microsoft is suddenly going to drop support for software that's been available to run since the last century?

For one thing, anything that remotely resembles a distribution platform like the new Windows App store is a competitor. And look at the history of companies who write Windows software that Microsoft decided to compete with destroy:

1. Office software - Lotus, Coral, etc .

2. Browsers - Netscape, and now all other browsers except IE on WinRT.

There are others too. Microsoft has a history of giving its applications advantages over the competition using secret API's and such things in order to wipe out the competition. And let's not kid ourselves here, browsers like Firefox and Chrome are competition to Microsoft, as well as Steam and other platform within a platform software that takes users out of the Windows Start Screen experience.

Considering that backwards compatibility has been one of Windows many strengths for years, don't you think that would be akin to financial suicide?

Quite the opposite. Microsoft has an OEM monopoly. It can do what it likes, as shown by the complete disregard for desktop users with Windows 8. By forcing all apps to go through the Windows store, Microsoft stands to make a pretty penny. It's trying to emulate Apple's walled garden approach. I don't think it will work though, as evidenced by the rebellious comments by various game developers/publishers.

Microsoft may have done shady things in the past

May have? Hehe. I guess you haven't read the Halloween Documents then ;) It's a very enlightening read. And I don't see anything to suggest the company has changed. The Anti-Linux litigation and FUD for one.

but they're not stupid, and arbitrarily telling people "sorry but your stuff won't work any more" is a great way to do just that.

That's exactly what they're doing with WinRT. They're still calling it Windows, except the only Windows application that will run is Microsoft Office.

[HawkMan]

No, but OpenGL runs on plenty of platforms while Direct3D only runs on those from MS.

Anyway the point of going multiplatform is planning before developing instead of porting as an afterthough, that's where you cut the work and make things easier.

And as I said before, switchign between OGL and DX is actually fairly easy, far easier than the actual code base. most sensible developers will even program the game so that the calls go through a "translator" that can talk to either DX or OGL, and if you use a third party graphics engine you often have that built in as well.

granted these numbers are still unproven and we only have the claims of someone at valve saying it is so. Valve the company that's interested in selling their linux platform. to the tens of thousands of Linux gamers :laugh: