pic How Pro Windows 8 users want Anti Windows 8 users to use Windows 8

[deactivated_]

I did. it wasn't obvious.

I hear ya!

Like trying to figure out how to close a 'Metro/Windows 8 Application' app without pressing ALT-F4. No close button, hovering over corners didn't help.... and I'm somehow supposed to guess '"grab" the top of the screen with the mouse, and drag it to the bottom of the screen' closes an app? or is even intuitive?

And it took me a lot of trial and error, and some Googling, to even figure out how to shut down without clicking the Desktop and pressing ALT-F4.... And I'm not a newbie, either.

Yes, I get that there are some new keyboard shortcuts to learn. However, we all have friends/family that call on us for support and we KNOW they don't remember, or don't want to, keyboard short cuts. So if someone like me can't figure it out right away, it is sure that none of the people I 'help' with their computer all the time would figure out these simple tasks.

[remixedcat]

Ok let me explain the joke. In EVERY thread all the pro metro users tell the anti Metro users.... If you don't like the Metro screen "It's simple!!! Just pin the apps you use to your taskbar!"

this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this

[chrisj1968]

I think first impressions are that people are caught off guard by something they never expected. I know I was. But I installed chrome on my VM and it pinned the chrome icon to my taskbar automatically.

it will take me time to find everything but I'm sure i will.

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

I really don't see people's problem with the start page, it's not as if you spend all your time in the start menu, you only go in there when you need something. Most of the time you'll be on the desktop which is just the same in 8

[WinMunkee]

This is the best post ever!!!!

Thanks! I just joined today, but have been lingering here for a while. All the negativity here baffles me. There are plenty of reasons to actually like the new OS, that menu, and the multiscreen capabilities are just a few. I've been using the OS everyday since the DP, and upgraded to the CP, then the RP. Not only that, but I have it installed on my work laptop to figure out a proper workflow for all of our employees. Honestly the new start screen helps a lot in doing that, however people that have a problem with how it looks turn away from it before optimizing it, or even thinking about working with it. It's kind of rediculous and part of the reason I signed up.

[+Warwagon MVC]

warwagon, the Mouse Properties dialog is for mouse-related settings; it isn't an app, so why would anyone expect it to be under the Apps section of the Search feature? Of course it's under the Settings section of the Search feature.

Your video is ridiculous because one can bring up the Mouse Properties in Windows 8 in the same amount of time they can in Windows 7; they just need to understand how search works in Windows 8 just like they had to understand how search worked in Windows 7.

Microsoft improved and expanded on the Search feature for Windows 8, neatly and usefully organising the results into sections. This isn't a case of bad design or implementation; it's a case of you not being able to adapt to an improved feature. Even if you don't feel it's an improvement, it's still a case of you not being able to adapt to something that is easy to adapt to.

yes you can do windows key + W. Sure it works but how many people know about hot keys? Heck some people still don't even know about control + alt + delete. So they will never use windows key + W. What was so bad about having everything you searched for show up in 1 box? I'm sorry but for the average user i'm stickin to my guns and saying based on that video 7 was clearly easier.

As far as Microsoft goes, how they should have thought about windows 8 is "What can be accomlished using only the left mouse button?" Because that's the only button people know how to do anything with. if they would have thought of windows using that train of thought, Windows 8 would have been a very different product.

[Colin McGregor]

question: I tried to search for updates as in windows updater. does this exist or does the os update ala chrome behind the scenes?

sorry I have questions. I'm lightening up on my view of Win8 overall. this will have great abilities for voice commands should i not be able to use my hands. say cooking, i can say, "recipe for grilled mahi mahi" and it will open it for me

perhaps even eye tracking for manipulation and opening files for the impaired

Type Windows Update in the search. OR right click where the start button used to be. Hit control panel > System and Security > Search for updates. But the search feature is by far 10000x faster so do that.

[Calum Veteran]

yes you can do windows key + W. Sure it works but how many people know about hot keys? Heck some people still don't even know about control + alt + delete. So they will never use windows key + W. What was so bad about having everything you searched for show up in 1 box? I'm sorry but for the average user i'm stickin to my guns and saying based on that video 7 was clearly easier.

As far as Microsoft goes, how they should have thought about windows 8 is "What can be accomlished using only the left mouse button?" Because that's the only button people know how to do anything with. if they would have thought of windows is using that train of thought, Windows 8 would have been a very different product.

I wasn't suggesting that any user should use that keyboard shortcut. The searching takes the exact same amount of time. The only difference with Windows 8 is clicking on Settings just after the search, which adds milliseconds to the amount of time it takes and doesn't make it any harder.

My point was that you (and the average user) had to learn how search worked in Windows 7. You didn't know that searching "Mouse" would allow you to bring up the Mouse Properties until you either tried it or read about it. In the same way, people won't know that Mouse Properties shows up in the Settings menu until they try it. Once they've tried the Search feature and understood how it works?just like they had to in Windows 7?they'll know how it works for every time in the future.

The Search feature is so much more than this?it doesn't just have sections for the operating system, it has sections for every app that uses the Search APIs and creates a contract for Search. Due to that, it makes sense that they'd separate operating system stuff into different categories.

[Dot Matrix]

Why do we need another Windows 8 thread? Especiually one that adds nothing of value?

[MorganX]

Why do we need another Windows 8 thread?

Because it runs on what 90+% of the World's desktops and the next release is a major paradigm shift in many areas and is causing a fair number of users quite a bit of angst.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Why do we need another Windows 8 thread? Especiually one that adds nothing of value?

Dunno but it's quite a popular thread!

[Dot Matrix]

Because it runs on what 90+% of the World's desktops and the next release is a major paradigm shift in many areas and is causing a fair number of users quite a bit of angst.

Is it? Or is it just people complaining to complain? Again, there is nothing wrong with it, if you actually sit down and use it, which many won't bother to do. The "Start Menu Paradox" is a silly arguement at best for many.

[Anthonyd]

I hear ya!

Like trying to figure out how to close a 'Metro/Windows 8 Application' app without pressing ALT-F4. No close button, hovering over corners didn't help.... and I'm somehow supposed to guess '"grab" the top of the screen with the mouse, and drag it to the bottom of the screen' closes an app? or is even intuitive?

And it took me a lot of trial and error, and some Googling, to even figure out how to shut down without clicking the Desktop and pressing ALT-F4.... And I'm not a newbie, either.

Yes, I get that there are some new keyboard shortcuts to learn. However, we all have friends/family that call on us for support and we KNOW they don't remember, or don't want to, keyboard short cuts. So if someone like me can't figure it out right away, it is sure that none of the people I 'help' with their computer all the time would figure out these simple tasks.

If you don't know that it's useless to close Metro apps and where the buttons are, then yes, you are a newbie.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Is it? Or is it just people complaining to complain? Again, there is nothing wrong with it, if you actually sit down and use it, which many won't bother to do. The "Start Menu Paradox" is a silly arguement at best for many.

I've been using the RP on my couch computer since it was released. Tonight i'm in the process of Putting Windows 7 back on and let me tell you, it feels like a breath of fresh air!

[MorganX]

Is it? Or is it just people complaining to complain? Again, there is nothing wrong with it, if you actually sit down and use it, which many won't bother to do. The "Start Menu Paradox" is a silly arguement at best for many.

There's an old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Windows 7 Desktop Computing wasn't broke and MS is going to have a tough job convincing a lot of people the changes in Windows 8 are for the better. A few really good apps, great games, and low cost should do the trick ;>

[Dot Matrix]

There's an old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Windows 7 Desktop Computing wasn't broke and MS is going to have a tough job convincing a lot of people the changes in Windows 8 are for the better. A few really good apps, great games, and low cost should do the trick ;>

... But it was broke. It was messy. It was unsupportable in the long run:

It didn't support Metro apps. It had no way of even representing them, due to differences in design.

It didn't support modern scaling feratures.

It had sizing issues.

It had trouble supporting the new multi-mon features (huge negative right there).

Ask Brandon Live, he'll give you more reasons.

[RandPC]

-If you sort the apps correctly in the start screen you don't need to scroll to catch the apps you need the most (unless you are using a 10" screen);

-Jump list are still here for pinned apps on the taskbar.

-Search for files is still accessible with 1 shortcut.

-The list for all apps is still accessible with 1 single click (use charmbar > search on the desktop).

-You don't lose access to Documents/Pictures/etc, just pin them into the taskbar/start menu and they are still 2 clicks away.

-I'm laughing out loud when reading "Also, on the start screen I cannot simply right click on the folders and hit properties to manage the folders linked to the libraries, or go to the System applet.". It's something that you do once per Windows install, using few more clicks won't kill you. Especially since you aren't supposed to redirect those folder but add the new destination to the Library.

See, most of your rant is based on the fact that you don't know how to use the new Windows.

A) Well, I guess this depends on how many applications you regularly use and whether those applications stay constant all the time. If they do stay constant then the loss of the MRU may not matter to you. Nor will the smaller selection of immediately accessible applications, though 'smaller' will be dependent on the resolution you use so it could plausibly be greater for some. I can only speak for my own needs, others will differ.

B) Jump lists is not there on the Start Screen however, I already have 8 applications pinned to the taskbar, to pin everything else in which I use the jumplist would massively clutter up the taskbar. It's simply not practical to pin everything that has a useful jumplist to the taskbar along with all my current pinned applications. This may work better for others that don't use jumplists very frequently however.

C) Yes I can still search, but I lose access to one single search that covers all media types. It's split into three searches.

D) My apologies if I'm being dense but I'm not certain what this point is addressing, I don't believe I denied that you could see a list of applications.

E) Yes, however as I pointed out this utilizes space that could be better used for applications whereas the current implementation is set aside in a location not covered by applications. Reducing my

F) This may be the case for you but it would appear I use my computer differently. I actually go to Computer>Right Click> properties to get to the system applet semi frequently for example. But again, absolutely if this isn't something you rarely do then you won't miss this.

I don't believe your stated points contradicted my clarifications of areas in which I found the Start Screen to be losing functionality, you merely offered me ways to duplicate existing functionality that I use. I would certainly never argue that there are multiple ways to do any given task in Windows, it's one of the operating systems biggest strengths but not all ways are equally convenient for my usage scenario and your alternatives are decidedly less convenient. For me anyway, which gaain gets back to the ultimate point that we all have different needs and neither solution necessarily fits everyone.

This isn't about a lack of understanding Windows, your points are very clear and relatively obvious to most anyone who has used Windows 8. It's simply that not everything that the Start Menu did can be done as conveniently in the Start Screen.

To be honest, I'm baffled why people find it difficult to accept that there are compromises to either the Start Screen or Start Menu. It is, or should be relatively clear in my mind that they possess differing functionality in some instances that isn't covered by the other.

Despite the no compromises mantra there are compromises, and by necessity. It's impossible to create a single UI that covers everything and works ideally for everyone.

If the Start Screen suits your needs and you like what it does you should use it, I wouldn't wish it taken away from Windows 8. I merely wish we had that and the Start Menu additionally, people could use what suits their own needs and need not frustrate themselves wishing the Start Menu had feature X of the Start Screen or the Start Screen had feature Y of the Start Menu.

[RandPC]

There's an old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Windows 7 Desktop Computing wasn't broke and MS is going to have a tough job convincing a lot of people the changes in Windows 8 are for the better. A few really good apps, great games, and low cost should do the trick ;>

It was broken for touch usage. No one wants to use Windows 7 on a tablet.

Obviously creating a separate and dedicated tablet OS would have been an alternative but this would prevent the one system touch + mouse combination.

The problem is IMO, that in bringing touch we've compromised many of the greatest strengths Windows had with a mouse.To radically improve touch we have (for some) harmed the user experience with a mouse + keyboard.

We can hope Windows 9 improves things there, my concern is that Metro and having a share of each application sold plus far greater control over the software ecosystem and what users are allowed to do will discourage them from improving the desktop which is decidedly less profitable and far more open, which may work well for consumers but definitely doesn't benefit Microsoft's profit margins.

[MorganX]

It didn't support Metro apps. It had no way of even representing them, due to differences in design.

This is really the heart of the disconnect. Metro apps didn't exist. And many feel they don't want or need Metro apps based on what they've seen so far. Microsoft needs to make users feel Metro apps are of value. That won't be hard to do on tablets and phones, it's the experienced desktop users that need to understand why they must change and reinvest for apparently no good reason. I'm not saying I agree, but I think that's a part of what they feel because I too felt it and still feel it with regards to Metro apps. Office 2013 isn't Metro, I don't use any Metro default apps, outlook.com is superior to Mail app.

It's early and there's plenty of time. Usually MS has partners with compelling apps in beta being shown, not this time. That is somewhat worrisome. Anyway, until value is shown, all many see is the changes, inconsistencies and some minor productivity loss.

It was broken for touch usage. No one wants to use Windows 7 on a tablet.

Absolutely. That's why many who don't like Windows 8 often ask, why couldn't they just release a "touch version" and leave everything else alone. Why couldn't Metro just install on touch. Of course, MS has other plans and Metro apps may be much more compelling that "touch" but we just haven't seen anything yet.

[PGHammer]

We completed a study with regards to the costs of upgrading to Windows 8 where I work, over 40,000 users. Just the training portion of that study was well into the 6 figures to get users comfortable and competant in using it. Final decision hasn't been made but looks like my workplace won't be upgrading any time soon either.

Hackersoft, I stated as much back when the Consumer Preview was released - those training-dollar estimates alone are going to cause companies to pass. (It's even worse when said estimates get inflated by those that despise the idea of even training folks to use Windows 8; therefore, they deliberately inflate training costs even further - basically, padding the estimate). Throw in pressure on businesses to maximize profits (for distribution as dividends) and that would gring ANY corporate OS change - no matter how small OR large - to a halt. How many upgrades merely to Windows 7 got put off for exactly this reason?

I'm just tired of all the excuse-hunting the anti-8 crowd are using to try and convince others that Android is not a threat.

We completed a study with regards to the costs of upgrading to Windows 8 where I work, over 40,000 users. Just the training portion of that study was well into the 6 figures to get users comfortable and competant in using it. Final decision hasn't been made but looks like my workplace won't be upgrading any time soon either.

Hackersoft, I stated as much back when the Consumer Preview was released - those training-dollar estimates alone are going to cause companies to pass. (It's even worse when said estimates get inflated by those that despise the idea of even training folks to use Windows 8; therefore, they deliberately inflate training costs even further - basically, padding the estimate). Throw in pressure on businesses to maximize profits (for distribution as dividends) and that would gring ANY corporate OS change - no matter how small OR large - to a halt. How many upgrades merely to Windows 7 got put off for exactly this reason?

I'm just tired of all the excuse-hunting the anti-8 crowd are using to try and convince others that Android is not a threat.

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

Several of you have mentioned right clicking in the bottom left hand corner of the screen to get that menu of advanced functions not exposed through Metro. There's a quicker way. Win+X. I use it all the time and love it :) The shortcut key works even from within Metro for quick access to these functions.

Also as someone else commented, you're not supposed to close metro apps in day-to-day usage as they "tombstone" themselves when not in use (apart from those that are designed to carry on running in the background), just as your not supposed to close iPhone, iPad and Android apps. However if you absolutely must do so, there are discoverable and "easy when you know how" ways of doing so.

[Anthonyd]

just as your not supposed to close iPhone, iPad and Android apps.

I'm pretty sure that you need to close iOS/Android apps :p

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

I'm pretty sure that you need to close iOS/Android apps :p

Actually no, not in day to day usage. You just hit your home button when you're done with an app, and it tombstones in the background as with Windows 8.

The method of closing iOS and Android apps is not well documented, just as with Windows 8. In iOS (on iPad at least, not had an iPhone for 4 years) you double tap the home key, then press and hold on one of the apps till they wiggle, then press the red X. In Android you press and hold on the home key, then swipe the app you want to close to the side. iOS's method is the most complex.

The functionality is identical in Metro. Only computers running Metro will have much more RAM, meaning you're less like to be forced to close some of those tombstoned apps.

[+Warwagon MVC]

... But it was broke. It was messy. It was unsupportable in the long run:

and The Desktop + Metro isn't messy?

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

and The Desktop + Metro isn't messy?

Maybe in your eyes, but then you tend to moan about anything and everything :)

I don't think it's messy as such... not as elegant as it might be perhaps. But a certain amount of that is expected so long as backwards compatibility with classic desktop apps is still required (and nobody is denying that it is). Eventually Metro will be at a stage where there are hundreds of thousands of apps of equal or better quality than desktop apps. I fully expect the desktop to be deprecated further in Windows 9, and be gone entirely in Windows 10.

What I'd actually like is for a way to have Metro on all my screens, rather than it just be limited to one. For somebody who plans to embrace it, I can see the current implementation being wasteful of dual monitors as the second monitor will not be doing much. Windows 9 will bring that function I think, if not a service pack for Windows 8.