Are WinRT apps 'tablet apps'?

[+Fahim S. MVC]

Finger friendly yes, tablet no.

[~Johnny]

He does have a point. Microsoft did introduce "Metro" as being their new design language. After it came to light they're unable to use the name they're frantically trying to safe face by saying it was just a codename and avoid saying "Metro" at all cost? Right?

Metro was ALWAYS introduced as a codename. The original document that the Metro name came from actually says "...our design language, internally code named Metro...". In fact, even the name of the document was "Windows Phone Design System - Codename Metro"

[BajiRav]

He does have a point. Microsoft did introduce "Metro" as being their new design language. After it came to light they're unable to use the name they're frantically trying to safe face by saying it was just a codename and avoid saying "Metro" at all cost? Right?

I don't care, not reading crap by that guy. If there is legal threat to using Metro, you can hardly blame Microsoft.

[Shane Nokes]

It's the same optics too - there's no redeveloped hardware in Kinect for Windows. Just firmware and software on the computers side, which you can get to work nicely with the Xbox version of Kinect - both machines are capable of doing hte same thing because they're the same machine. The only practical difference is they undergo different testing at the factory.

Although mentioning that, Kinect it tablet form wouldn't exactly be handy, outside of possibly helping facial tracking, when touch control is so close. I think speech control should be a bigger focus - and hopefully something Microsoft push a lot more in the next Windows release or SDK point release - especially given the SDK improvements in Windows Phone 8 which shares a similar runtime.

Firmware is something that's actually onboard the device itself, not something installed on the PC...which means the Xbox 360 version is not capable of the same things as the Windows version. You can verify this just by doing some checking on the developer portal for Kinect.

Also you are quite wrong to state that other than the cord it's the same hardware. I mean you can tell there are other differences just by looking at them.

For instance look at the different lenses used:

So trying to say the only difference is PC software and that they work the same being plugged into a PC is quite incorrect. There are reasons that Near Mode works ONLY on the Windows version.

[~Johnny]

Firmware is something that's actually onboard the device itself, not something installed on the PC...which means the Xbox 360 version is not capable of the same things as the Windows version. You can verify this just by doing some checking on the developer portal for Kinect.

Also you are quite wrong to state that other than the cord it's the same hardware. I mean you can tell there are other differences just by looking at them.

For instance look at the different lenses used:

So trying to say the only difference is PC software and that they work the same being plugged into a PC is quite incorrect. There are reasons that Near Mode works ONLY on the Windows version.

Uh - the current run of Xbox Kinects use that sensor too - the internal Kinect hardware has been optimised since it was launched. (The release Kinect had 3 layers of PCB's inside, the current onsale model has just one) - the Kinect SDK team have already specifically confirmed they're exactly the same lenses, near mode is only a firmware thing. Also, the original Kinect SDK BETA 1 actually allowed the Xbox Kinect sensor to focus basically as close as Near mode does for Kinect for Windows (I know this because I was actually using it to track hand movements at the time in place of a mouse - which was arduous work considering there has no hand tracking of any sort at the time) - but the SDk BETA 2 placed an artificial limit on this to 80cm.

If you'd actually read the link I sent - you'll see that they also agree that the original hardware was capable of it and that they're using the same lenses. The only difference is firmware and testing.

[Shane Nokes]

Uh - the current run of Xbox Kinects use that sensor too - the internal Kinect hardware has been optimised since it was launched. (The release Kinect had 3 layers of PCB's inside, the current onsale model has just one) - the Kinect SDK team have already specifically confirmed they're exactly the same lenses, near mode is only a firmware thing. Also, the original Kinect SDK BETA 1 actually allowed the Xbox Kinect sensor to focus basically as close as Near mode does for Kinect for Windows (I know this because I was actually using it to track hand movements at the time in place of a mouse - which was arduous work considering there has no hand tracking of any sort at the time) - but the SDk BETA 2 placed an artificial limit on this to 80cm.

If you'd actually read the link I sent - you'll see that they also agree that the original hardware was capable of it and that they're using the same lenses. The only difference is firmware and testing.

Indeed. I'm fully aware that there have been changes, which is part of what has let the lower pricing occur. The changes happened around the time the Kinect for Windows devices were launched. It was easier to make one model than two.

I never said that they haven't gotten better, but that there is different hardware & firmware. There are different lenses depending upon when you bought your Kinect. I happen to have a launch Kinect...so obviously it's not quite up to snuff with the newer models.

So did they update the hardware when Kinect for Windows came out? Yes, and those improvements also worked their way into the Xbox 360 version too. That doesn't do much for the folks that are stuck with the old firmware (which they've stated is not coming to the Xbox 360 versions) or the older lenses that were being used pre-update.

Most people that have Kinect at this point bought theirs PRE-2012, which means most are using the old 3PCB & older lenses. Yes I did read what you posted, and it doesn't refute what I'm stating at all.

Are the current in the box units the same? Yes. Was that always the case? No.

[@Leo]

Haha, so this thread started after people went off-topic in another thread. Now this thread has turned into Kinect argument. :laugh:

[Shane Nokes]

Haha, so this thread started after people went off-topic in another thread. Now this thread has turned into Kinect argument. :laugh:

It's a discussion about whether or not they are tablet apps. Talking about how the Kinect works and other UI options is valid at least. ;) :)

[Rickkins]

I installed an Home Theater PC this week for my room in my apartment. Considering that my TV is bigger than any PC monitor out there, the desktop UI is not meant for it. I have to raise the DPI to 200% just to see anything from my couch, and then I have to use a friggin mouse to click on the icons just to get to Media Center. I have since installed Windows 8, gotten rid of the desktop and desktop apps, and use nothing but the "so-called" tablet only apps that people hate so much. They're working 100,000,000,000,000x better thanthe desktop apps even did. The new Start screen adjusts itself to my screens's resolution, and for once, I can see the friggin icons I'm clicking on. Better yet, Metro IE has been the best browser for using with the HTPC.

Wow. Just when I think I've heard it all from you BAM...!!! You go and spread more nonsense. I've been using my pc as a htpc for ages, and it works fine, even in win8 desktop mode. The only thing I see on my 60" plasma is my desktop background. I use the ipazzport to control it from my couch, and everything works fine....and I can read any context menu from any media app (mostly mpc-hc or vlc) no problem.(with my glasses on, can't see anything from a distance without my glasses). Sorry, but your horseploppy will not fly today.

I should also note that when you have to resort to such patent falsehoods, it shows a certain lack of faith in your position.

[Shane Nokes]

Dot was talking about Windows 7. Note the part after the whole first half that says, "I have since installed Windows 8"

They said that things are much better in Windows 8. It doesn't sound like Dot has tested the desktop much, but the point was they weren't necessarily disagreeing with you.

[Dot Matrix]

Dot was talking about Windows 7. Note the part after the whole first half that says, "I have since installed Windows 8"

They said that things are much better in Windows 8. It doesn't sound like Dot has tested the desktop much, but the point was they weren't necessarily disagreeing with you.

I haven't. The point I was trying to make was that I don't need it on the HTPC at all. I can survive solely using Metro/Modern. An HTPC is just one of a few examples where using a desktop no longer makes sense.

[Rickkins]

Ever since when is MCE free (http://www.neowin.ne...ost-1279-for-us)

Futhermore apart from Media playback, what are you doing on a HTPC?

BTW: can I control Metro via a RC6 remote? If not, I's a total fail all the way in terms of HTPC....

Nice looking remote. Have you ever tried it with mpc-hc and/or vlc...??

Ifso, how does it work out..??

[Depicus]

From http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464920.aspx

"Metro style apps are designed to be touch first"

[contextfree]

touch-first != tablet-only

But I'm not sure it matters what you call them. If you don't like them on non-tablets, you don't like them on non-tablets. It's hard to say you're "wrong" about that. I would say they are more suited to tablets, but not exclusively. It's a continuum not a binary yes/no.

[Shane Nokes]

contextfree is correct here. Touch-first does not equal touch only. Those same UI guidelines also note: Do not build separate touch and mouse interactions. So while something may be designed for touch, the mouse should be allowed to interact with that same element in the same manner.

[@Leo]

touch-first != tablet-only

But I'm not sure it matters what you call them. If you don't like them on non-tablets, you don't like them on non-tablets. It's hard to say you're "wrong" about that. I would say they are more suited to tablets, but not exclusively. It's a continuum not a binary yes/no.

"you don't like them on non-tablets" == tablet-only

[spaceelf]

"you don't like them on non-tablets" == tablet-only

The problem with that statement is they're judging the current WinRT apps (and in many cases not even all of those) rather than what it's capable of.

Seems a bit silly to judge WinRT based on the few things available today when it's most likely a platform for the next decade or more...and the one OS release supporting it isn't even really out yet.

[@Leo]

The problem with that statement is they're judging the current WinRT apps (and in many cases not even all of those) rather than what it's capable of.

Seems a bit silly to judge WinRT based on the few things available today when it's most likely a platform for the next decade or more...and the one OS release supporting it isn't even really out yet.

The design guidelines state clearly that Metro apps have to work with both touch and keyboard and mouse, and should not offer different experiences based on input method. This leads to believe the vast majority of apps, if not all, will thus be "tablet only" for desktop users. Sure, games or video players or some specialised apps might be OK for both, but that is not the meat and bones of the potential Marketplace.

Moreover, the fact that you can only have one of these apps running, instead of being able to run several in windows, tells me they are indeed "tablet only", because if I had a 30+" touch screen (and I was crazy enough to want to work with my hands waving left and right), I could easily run 3-4 Metro apps in windows and work on all of them with ease. But no, modern audience is retarded and can only focus on one app at a time, with a second "sidekick" if you really push it. :rolleyes:

Tablet only indeed.

[spaceelf]

I don't have any intention of using a touch screen in the next five years, myself.

There're any number of studies saying humans are inherently bad at multitasking anyway. If you want to call humanity retarded, be my guest, I certainly won't disagree.

[Dot Matrix]

The design guidelines state clearly that Metro apps have to work with both touch and keyboard and mouse, and should not offer different experiences based on input method. This leads to believe the vast majority of apps, if not all, will thus be "tablet only" for desktop users. Sure, games or video players or some specialised apps might be OK for both, but that is not the meat and bones of the potential Marketplace.

Moreover, the fact that you can only have one of these apps running, instead of being able to run several in windows, tells me they are indeed "tablet only", because if I had a 30+" touch screen (and I was crazy enough to want to work with my hands waving left and right), I could easily run 3-4 Metro apps in windows and work on all of them with ease. But no, modern audience is retarded and can only focus on one app at a time, with a second "sidekick" if you really push it. :rolleyes:

Tablet only indeed.

Saying they're tablet only would mean they would only work with tablets, when they clearly don't. They work on the desktop, they work on my HTPC, and they're working great on my laptop, which tells me thay aren't tablet only apps.

[@Leo]

Saying they're tablet only would mean they would only work with tablets, when they clearly don't. They work on the desktop, they work on my HTPC, and they're working great on my laptop, which tells me thay aren't tablet only apps.

No, tablet only for me means I would only want to use these apps on tablet. Tablet only.

But you can continue reciting the same canned responses over and over. Don't forget to mention how extensive UX testing was done, and Microsoft found people only want one concurrent app with huge fonts and graphics, scrolling "great" from left to right while you spin your wheel down. :rolleyes:

[Joni_78]

Those are clearly tablet apps and badly break design guidelines of how a program UI should be designed for mouse+keyboard. Media Center is also a pain to use on mouse but works well on remote or tablet. Sure you can use those with mouse but it's not really a pleasant experience.

Windows 8 would look guite a bit different if there would be no tablets.

[Dot Matrix]

But you can continue reciting the same canned responses over and over.

(N) Where do you think Microsoft comes up with all of their UI enhancements over the years?

[@Leo]

(N) Where do you think Microsoft comes up with all of their UI enhancements over the years?

With Vista and 7? An experienced UI design team.

With Windows XP and 8?

(Y)

[Dot Matrix]

With Windows XP and 8?

That doesn't make any sense. Windows 8 and Windows XP share no common UI features. And if you really think about it, colors help people differentiate, so the colors seen on the Start screen make sense.