Are WinRT apps 'tablet apps'?

[Shane Nokes]

Apart from minor changes they are exactly the same thing...

I would hardly call Near Mode, Skeletal Tracking, and a ton of API changes minor. Funnily enough though we're not getting off-topic in a topic that was spun off because it was off-topic.

We may want to avoid Thread Inception. ;)

[Dot Matrix]

Well I cannot believe you can do anything, at this time, productive at school with just Metro tablet apps. You also fail to consider that a LOT of people still have to work with proper business applications which still require a desktop.

Hey Dot, what are you writing your papers on again? Is there a Metro Wordpad I'm missing somewhere? Calum, if you'd step back for a second, you might get a whiff of the smoke Dot keeps blowing up your nether-yaya.

Ho so? My notes are taken using Modern Evernote and OneNote, homework assignments can be taken with QuickNote, I can Sync all the things with SkyDrive, and I can get my research done with IE Modern and Wikipedia app. I also have my class and work schedule shown on Start with the Calendar app.

The only thing I'm in desktop mode for is the rest of Office.

[MFH]

I would hardly call Near Mode, Skeletal Tracking, and a ton of API changes minor. Funnily enough though we're not getting off-topic in a topic that was spun off because it was off-topic.

That's API (aka Software) changes, You can use the same API for both versions of Kinect.... (the only advantage of the "Windows" version is, that it's license is compatible with commercial software,,,)

[Shane Nokes]

That's API (aka Software) changes, You can use the same API for both versions of Kinect.... (the only advantage of the "Windows" version is, that it's license is compatible with commercial software,,,)

You realize that some of those changes are hardware & firmware specific to the Windows model right? /sighs

Now at this point I'm exiting since I don't want to get in trouble for going off-topic.

[Dot Matrix]

Sorry Dot, why are you comparing to the desktop instead of Media Center (a desktop app) again? There is nothing intrinsic Metro adds except touch over the desktop. There isn't a single app that is better in Metro right now and you are delusional to say they are. Sure, for set tops and other places an AppleTV or iMac would fit sure, go for it. That is a much smaller piece and they already have the XBox for that (as if Windows Embedded is a 'new' thing either).

Metro adds a lot more than just touch. Again, it is a highly adaptable UI that can fit a wide range of devices (both touch and non touch) better than the desktop can. Sorry, but it is an annoyance to have a desktop running an a home theater PC, when it is not needed, and my testing has shown that most, if not all, can get by using Modern on laptops and convertibles as well.

[MFH]

You realize that some of those changes are hardware & firmware specific to the Windows model right? /sighs

Now at this point I'm exiting since I don't want to get in trouble for going off-topic.

The hardware of the Window version is virtually identical to the XBox verison...

Sorry, but it is an annoyance to have a desktop running an a home theater PC

You know that since XP there has been Media Center right? Oh, right I forgot, they made it a pay-again addon in 8...

[Dot Matrix]

You know that since XP there has been Media Center right? Oh, right I forgot, they made it a pay-again addon in 8...

Huh? MCE is a free addon if you upgrade, also MCE isn't a full UI to use your machine with. Metro is. Metro finally gives a complete desktop-free UX where ever it's not needed.

[MFH]

Huh? MCE is a free addon if you upgrade, also MCE isn't a full UI to use your machine with. Metro is. Metro finally gives a complete desktop-free UX where ever it's not needed.

Ever since when is MCE free (http://www.neowin.ne...ost-1279-for-us)

Futhermore apart from Media playback, what are you doing on a HTPC?

BTW: can I control Metro via a RC6 remote? If not, I's a total fail all the way in terms of HTPC....

[Dot Matrix]

Ever since when is MCE free (http://www.neowin.ne...ost-1279-for-us)

Futhermore apart from Media playback, what are you doing on a HTPC?

BTW: can I control Metro via a RC6 remote? If not, I's a total fail all the way in terms of HTPC....

If you upgrade a Windows XP, Vista, or 7 machine, MCE will be a free addon until January when the offer expires.

Second, what don't I do on my HTPC. When I have friends over, we're on YouTube, I type on Neowin sometimes while I'm relaxing on the couch, sometimes I like to review school notes, etc. I can use it like a normal PC, without being burdened by the desktop.

Plus, I use a wireless keyboard with the HTPC. I ditched the mouse completely, when I installed 8. You can select tiles using the arrow keys.

[Matthew_Thepc]

@OP - no, I don't think so.

I think that a lot of the current WinRT/Metro/Modern UI apps in the Store are designed for touch, but I definitely don't think that it's impossible (or, really, very hard) to create a WinRT app that works great on touch and mouse/keyboard.

IMO, if Win8 tablets are really successful, we'll probably keep seeing these touch-oriented WinRT apps, but if they flop or just do mediocrely, we'll see a better balance

[MFH]

Second, what don't I do on my HTPC. When I have friends over, we're on YouTube, I type on Neowin sometimes while I'm relaxing on the couch, sometimes I like to review school notes, etc. I can use it like a normal PC, without being burdened by the desktop.

Wireless keyboard != no replacement for a single RC6-based remote...

[Shane Nokes]

Wireless keyboard != no replacement for a single RC6-based remote...

Even if it's something similar to this? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823721001

;)

[Nazmus Shakib Khandaker]

Honestly, most apps in the Windows Store today are designed for the tablet form factor. HOWEVER, this is not always true with games. Because we are accustomed to games being fullscreen, many WinRT games look very much like full on desktop games. Many games support many keyboard controls that align with desktop gaming standards. For me, WinRT apps available today feel like it was designed for tablets, but Games are a bit different in my experience.

[PGHammer]

EDIT: All off-topic posts from this thread have been moved over to this new, official thread for such discussion. This post was the first off-topic post in the thread. Please feel free to continue this discussion here :)

I feel I should point out, there is a problem with how you're referring to apps and programs in Windows 8.

As others have pointed out, the "Metro" apps are not "tablet apps." They are designed for many different formfactors, including notebooks and desktops, and they are designed to be operated by either fingers or a mouse and keyboard. Referring to them as "tablet apps," just because you believe they work better on a tablet is a pretty ignorant way of posting, especially when you are asking for help?it indicates that you haven't put any thought into trying to understand Windows 8 before asking about your problem. The same possibly goes for the post I've quoted above, in which you refer to the previous Windows programs as "normal programs." I suppose they could be referred to as "normal" in the sense that they are currently the most used by computer users, but I suspect you meant "normal" in another sense.

True.

They are NOT *tablet apps* - however, because of the way all too many of the APPS (as opposed to the WinRT games) act, someone would think they were scaled-up PHONE apps - especially at resolutions common to larger-screen notebooks, and especially desktops, as they do suffer from quite a bit of screen-size wasteage at any resolution taller than 1680x1050. However, we have seen this before (in fact, we still see it) in reference to Web sites that are a poor fit for larger displays - haven't you gone to a Web site and noticed that it was designed for a 4:3 display, as opposed to 16:9 or 16:10? (Or the reverse, if you still have a 4:3 display?)

[PGHammer]

Even if it's something similar to this? http://www.newegg.co...N82E16823721001

;)

Or even the Microsoft Wireless Keyboard 6000 V.3.0 - my own keyboard of choice (and for my desktop).

[MFH]

Even if it's something similar to this? http://www.newegg.co...N82E16823721001

;)

Yep, even that thing doesn't qualify for a HTPC in my book...

[~Johnny]

You realize that some of those changes are hardware & firmware specific to the Windows model right? /sighs

FYI, the only hardware difference in the Windows Kinect model is a shorter cable. Everything else is software, which you can get to work with the xbox version of Kinect too if you wanted. The as I've said, there's still no built in support for Kinect in Windows. You can download the SDK, but all that leaves you with is an SDK - and SDK that doesn't work with WinRT anyway. Even if you wanted to do anything with Kinect on Windows 8 outside of WinRT, you'd have to program it all by yourself.

--------

In answer to someone else, there's plenty you can't do in WinRT that you can do Win32 - not only because of the sandboxing and limited API, but also performance - the UI framework - certainly the XAML side - is RAM heavier and performance costlier than standard Win32. (You could get similar performance by writing everything in C++ & DirectX, but realistically that's a ridiculous thing to try and ask developers to do.)

[+virtorio MVC]

I've yet to come across a WinRT app that I like using with a mouse and keyboard, apart from a couple of games. I do believe it can be done, I just haven't found one yet.

[Shane Nokes]

FYI, the only hardware difference in the Windows Kinect model is a shorter cable. Everything else is software, which you can get to work with the xbox version of Kinect too if you wanted. The as I've said, there's still no built in support for Kinect in Windows. You can download the SDK, but all that leaves you with is an SDK - and SDK that doesn't work with WinRT anyway. Even if you wanted to do anything with Kinect on Windows 8 outside of WinRT, you'd have to program it all by yourself.

The firmware is different as well and enables specific things that the Xbox version does not do. Those things you cannot have working with the Xbox version unless you somehow find a way to hack on the firmware, and even then that's not a guarantee.

I also mentioned that one of the team back in May specifically stated that not everything was working yet, but that they were still working on having Kinect for Windows up and running for WinRT in Windows 8. :)

As I've said over and over, remember GA is still about 2 months away.

[BajiRav]

FYI, the only hardware difference in the Windows Kinect model is a shorter cable. Everything else is software, which you can get to work with the xbox version of Kinect too if you wanted. The as I've said, there's still no built in support for Kinect in Windows. You can download the SDK, but all that leaves you with is an SDK - and SDK that doesn't work with WinRT anyway. Even if you wanted to do anything with Kinect on Windows 8 outside of WinRT, you'd have to program it all by yourself.

IIRC Kinect for Windows has modified optics to enable "near mode", there might be additional hardware differences.

[~Johnny]

IIRC Kinect for Windows has modified optics to enable "near mode", there might be additional hardware differences.

It's the same optics too - there's no redeveloped hardware in Kinect for Windows. Just firmware and software on the computers side, which you can get to work nicely with the Xbox version of Kinect - both machines are capable of doing hte same thing because they're the same machine. The only practical difference is they undergo different testing at the factory.

Although mentioning that, Kinect it tablet form wouldn't exactly be handy, outside of possibly helping facial tracking, when touch control is so close. I think speech control should be a bigger focus - and hopefully something Microsoft push a lot more in the next Windows release or SDK point release - especially given the SDK improvements in Windows Phone 8 which shares a similar runtime.

[.Neo]

Thank you for being courteous when saying this to me, unlike some people. As you may be aware, I am honestly not trying to be irritating :p and I am trying to help. I'm just very, very pedantic, and I believe the term "tablet apps" influences unreasonable criticism, considering that Microsoft did design them for desktops and notebooks, too, even if they only work well on tablets.

I definitely don't concur with your assessment. I think Microsoft did in fact create Metro purely with tablets in mind, despite of what the company claims in public. The fact they work with keyboard and mouse too is simply because that's what Windows itself was originally designed for. Sure, Microsoft might have done some tweaking left and right, but to say "Microsoft did design them for desktops and notebooks too"? Nah, I'm really not buying it. I mean, the PC settings window is just absolute proof of this: You can clearly tell it isn't designed for larger screens by any means. All interface elements are HUGE, something that's utterly pointless when using the cursor (unless you're heavily visually impaired). It also wastes away screen estate like crazy. More or less the same can be said of all Metro apps that ship by default with Windows 8. It's all fine and dandy on a tablet, but it makes no sense whatsoever on any device operated by keyboard and mouse. Nor have I heard one good reason why it's so important for me to have PC settings, Contacts and Mail apps full-screen on a 27-inch iMac. Again, it makes no sense and it's the reason why I never use full-screen in OS X. Playing games and videos being the obvious exception of course.

I will definitely think about what you've said there, and I will try to get over things like this :p

Being less "pedantic" during conversations will make the experience better for everyone including yourself, trust me. If only because English isn't the native tongue of everyone here. Personally I find it easier to express myself in Dutch as well. I'm glad to see you didn't pick it up the wrong way.

[cropcircles]

Metro apps, Metro style. Metro blunder

http://www.zdnet.com/ballmers-biggest-blunder-ever-the-mis-naming-of-metro-7000002111/

[BajiRav]

FYI, the only hardware difference in the Windows Kinect model is a shorter cable. Everything else is software, which you can get to work with the xbox version of Kinect too if you wanted. The as I've said, there's still no built in support for Kinect in Windows. You can download the SDK, but all that leaves you with is an SDK - and SDK that doesn't work with WinRT anyway. Even if you wanted to do anything with Kinect on Windows 8 outside of WinRT, you'd have to program it all by yourself.

--------

In answer to someone else, there's plenty you can't do in WinRT that you can do Win32 - not only because of the sandboxing and limited API, but also performance - the UI framework - certainly the XAML side - is RAM heavier and performance costlier than standard Win32. (You could get similar performance by writing everything in C++ & DirectX, but realistically that's a ridiculous thing to try and ask developers to do.)

Aah good to know :) I always thought it had different lens.

Metro apps, Metro style. Metro blunder

http://www.zdnet.com...tro-7000002111/

^ WARNING: article is from a known Microsoft troll. (Opened and closed without reading when I saw the author is SJVN).

[.Neo]

^ WARNING: article is from a known Microsoft troll. (Opened and closed without reading when I saw the author is SJVN).

He does have a point. Microsoft did introduce "Metro" as being their new design language. After it came to light they're unable to use the name they're frantically trying to safe face by saying it was just a codename and avoid saying "Metro" at all cost? Right?