Are WinRT apps 'tablet apps'?

[MFH]

I voted for "yes". I think I already expressed my issues with "Metro apps"...

[@Leo]

I voted "yes". My reasoning for this is, while they may work on other platforms, they are primarily designed for small-screen touch devices, tablets/slates. I say small-screen, because if you had a 30"+, you wouldn't want to reach with your hand to the edges of the screen to swipe. If people like this method of work, then great, but they should not be kidding themselves - a touch-first system like this is primarily suited for tablets. When I scroll down with my mouse, I do not expect the content to move to the left.

[Dashel]

They are slate oriented apps (right now) like you would find on in iOS or Droid - concensus was pretty quick on those deniers too. Long term, that could change, but they will need to add some serious customization and mouse optimization to get there.

Sorry Dot, why are you comparing to the desktop instead of Media Center (a desktop app) again? There is nothing intrinsic Metro adds except touch over the desktop. There isn't a single app that is better in Metro right now and you are delusional to say they are. Sure, for set tops and other places an AppleTV or iMac would fit sure, go for it. That is a much smaller piece and they already have the XBox for that (as if Windows Embedded is a 'new' thing either).

[MFH]

When I scroll down with my mouse, I do not expect the content to move to the left.

Yeah, that's a major annoyance in my book....

[Calum Veteran]

[. . .] Surely the term "touch first" fits the new UI perfectly. Whereas Windows up to 7 was "touch second"...

That seems to make sense to me, but I could be wrong. Although, I haven't yet had any problems using the WinRT apps on a desktop or notebook.

Are you suggesting that people should get a lecture on Microsoft viewpoint and philosophy before using the OS and asking questions about it? That's not how it should work.

[. . .]

I'm not sure whether they should get a lecture, but I just think that if they use terms that contradict Microsoft's intentions, they run the risk of seeming like they haven't even tried to understand the operating system before asking their question. But maybe they don't even need to try to understand it before asking their question?is that what you're suggesting? If so, maybe you're right.

[. . .]

Not even Microsoft have come up with a standarised way of reffering to non-desktop apps. First it was Metro, now it's not. Then again, Office 2013 is very "metro", yet it's still a desktop app.

[. . .]

Yes, I would appreciate some clarification from them regarding this. I'd prefer there to be clear, official, logical terms for everyone to refer to "Metro" apps and "Desktop apps."

[. . .]

From a corporate view point, Microsoft should become aware that when people are misusing the terms, it's not because people have FAILED to try to understand Microsoft's viewpoint. It's because Microsoft has failed to either understand how the user/consumer thinks, or has failed to get the PROPER message to the consumer.

[. . .]

That is a very good point, if it's the vast majority of users that view the product negatively (I guess we'll probably find out within the next year or so if that's the case); however, even if that does end up being the case, as I much prefer the new experience on a desktop PC to the old experience, I would say Microsoft have definitely understood me and how I think, and they've got the message to me well.

I understand perfectly the arguments against it. But considering that the role of a PC has expanded beyond a huge box that sits on your desk, the are many many scenarios where the desktop UI isn't cutting it anymore, and a new way of doing things is needed. I installed an Home Theater PC this week for my room in my apartment. Considering that my TV is bigger than any PC monitor out there, the desktop UI is not meant for it. I have to raise the DPI to 200% just to see anything from my couch, and then I have to use a friggin mouse to click on the icons just to get to Media Center. I have since installed Windows 8, gotten rid of the desktop and desktop apps, and use nothing but the "so-called" tablet only apps that people hate so much. They're working 100,000,000,000,000x better thanthe desktop apps even did. The new Start screen adjusts itself to my screens's resolution, and for once, I can see the friggin icons I'm clicking on. Better yet, Metro IE has been the best browser for using with the HTPC.

I blew away all desktop apps and the desktop tile on my laptop, again, here I do not miss the desktop apps in the least bit. I have been just as productive at school using nothing but Modern apps as I was using the old desktop. Which brings in the Surface Pro and related tablets. If I can live in Modern on a laptop, I can certainly do the same on a convertible as well, again, negating the need for the desktop at all. How about PCs connected to kiosks? ATMs, etc. I'd imagine, Windows Embedded is going to be nothing but Modern fairly soon. Since embedded PC serve a single function, the desktop is wasted on them.

So tell me again why the desktop is almighty? Because the more you look at it, the more the desktop is looking outdated, old, and depreciated.

I loved this post, and that's a great example of a use case that points out how the new experience is stronger than the old experience on a formfactor without a touchscreen that is much bigger than a tablet.

Well. that's kind of a tradition, just think about the term "system tray"...

Yes, I do believe Microsoft should give everything one official name (e.g. what they have done with the Charms bar), and I think all of their employees should get their facts straight about a product before commenting on it with incorrect information :yes:

[Depicus]

I blew away all desktop apps and the desktop tile on my laptop, again, here I do not miss the desktop apps in the least bit. I have been just as productive at school using nothing but Modern apps as I was using the old desktop. Which brings in the Surface Pro and related tablets. If I can live in Modern on a laptop, I can certainly do the same on a convertible as well, again, negating the need for the desktop at all. How about PCs connected to kiosks? ATMs, etc. I'd imagine, Windows Embedded is going to be nothing but Modern fairly soon. Since embedded PC serve a single function, the desktop is wasted on them.

So tell me again why the desktop is almighty? Because the more you look at it, the more the desktop is looking outdated, old, and depreciated.

Well I cannot believe you can do anything, at this time, productive at school with just Metro tablet apps. You also fail to consider that a LOT of people still have to work with proper business applications which still require a desktop.

[MFH]

Although, I haven't yet had any problems using the WinRT apps on a desktop or notebook.

I think that there's a difference between "usable" and "designed for". For me "Metro Apps" are usable on the desktop, but some of their designe traits just scream "not designed for",,,

BTW: If they already remove Aero Glass - Aero without Glas is simply ugly IMHO - why aren't they using a theme that looks like the Zune software (or WHS launchpad, or the new Mouse/Keyboard control center)?! It sure would look better than the crippled version of Aero that the use now...

[Dashel]

No doubt Depicus. I agree with that distinction too MFH. There is a big differenece.

Hey Dot, what are you writing your papers on again? Is there a Metro Wordpad I'm missing somewhere? Calum, if you'd step back for a second, you might get a whiff of the smoke Dot keeps blowing up your nether-yaya.

[Anthonyd]

How am I even introducing programming languages into the equation?

You are comparing Desktop apps VS WinRT apps.

BTW: WTF at the poll? WinRT apps covers a lot of use case, from PC to tablet and to Phones. And it's a per case basis to see if they are good for each device. I can play solitaire with the mouse like in Windows 98, does it makes it a tablet apps just because it's using WinRT? Heck no.

[~Johnny]

Applications are whatever the developer makes them. I'm developing a number of WinRT applications, and they're a joy to use on the desktop. Still keeping in with the style of Windows 8 applications, but nicer than Microsoft's attempts at any rate. Point being, if a developer wants to make them as tablet apps, they can. If they want to make them as desktop apps, they can. If you want to target both wonderfully, they can. (Well, they can try, but they still need a good deal of sense to do it right.)

The framework was designed to make touch a first class citizen - but not at the expense of mouse and keyboard. Mouse 7 keyboard were already first class citizens, and when they designed the framework they made a lot of effort to keep them that way.

FYI, it's also perfectly easy to be productive at University with just Metro that are on the store at the moment, let alone ones that have been fully developed after on down the line when Window 8 has actually been released.

[MFH]

Point being, if a developer wants to make them as tablet apps, they can.

Honesty, the fact alone that the central controls of an application are either at the top or the bottom of the application + the massive space between the "buttons" surely distances the "Metro apps" from the traditional programs...

[~Johnny]

Honesty, the fact alone that the central controls of an application are either at the top or the bottom of the application + the massive space between the "buttons" surely distances the "Metro apps" from the traditional programs...

It's a different paradigm. Just because it's different doesn't magically bar them from ever being considered desktop apps. And again, it's totally upto the developer how they want to space their buttons, if they want to use the app bar, how they want to split their controls. And even by utilsing those paradigms, it doesn't inherently make them tablet applications, it just makes them different applications than what we're used too.

[Shane Nokes]

Everyone who keeps thinking this is just tablet-centric keeps forgetting Kinect.

You do realize Kinect works with Windows 8 and this enables easier usage with Kinect right?

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

I think the question is kind of invalid. Each app is different and is designed for different things. Metro apps are capable of being designed for touch, designed for keyboard/mouse, or both. Take the game "Skull" for instance. The controls for this are keyboard only, it's not a touch app, so clearly not a "tablet app". Yet other apps are clearly impractical with keyboard and mouse and are tablet apps.

So, each app is different. You can't apply a generalisation to all of them.

[Anthonyd]

Everyone who keeps thinking this is just tablet-centric keeps forgetting Kinect.

You do realize Kinect works with Windows 8 and this enables easier usage with Kinect right?

Kinect is made for tablets.

[~Johnny]

Everyone who keeps thinking this is just tablet-centric keeps forgetting Kinect.

You do realize Kinect works with Windows 8 and this enables easier usage with Kinect right?

I hope this is sarcasm, but if not, Kinect doesn't work out of the box with anything in Windows 8 :p There's also no support for it in the WinRT framework or any other part of the Windows framework.

[Calum Veteran]

@Calum: What happend? You're on the pro-Windows-8-side again :)

Heh, I have always held these views regarding the WinRT apps and the new Windows 8 experience?I feel the new experience and the apps work much better for me on any formfactor than the previous experience. I don't mind that it's more limiting, as I don't desire any of the functionality that has been missed out. I actually believe that the limited functionality (e.g. not even being able to overlap windows and have more than two on screen at once) helps ensure the user experience will always be better than it is in Windows 7.

I have stated before that I may switch to using a Mac (at least until the next version of Windows), even though I quite love Windows 8, for a couple of reasons, and I'm still considering it:

While I love the direction Microsoft are going in, the new Windows experience isn't quite there yet and could do with evolving more. I understand that they had to release it in this state of the evolution, due to time constraints and them requiring a competing product, but I feel I might be annoyed by how often I have to switch to the "old" experience to achieve certain tasks. At the moment, that is quite often, and much more often than I reckon I'd be happy with, due to there being no WinRT apps for Spotify, Photoshop, and Visual Studio, and due to most porn video sites not working well in the "Metro" Internet Explorer. Spotify may come soon, or sometime within the next year, but I'm concerned how long it may take for WinRT versions of Photoshop and Visual Studio, or even whether it's feasible for them to be developed or not.

Microsoft are far from pleasing me with the lack of Facebook integration. They've implemented some pretty nice Facebook features in Windows Phone, the Windows 8 People app, and the Windows 8 Messaging app, but they've missed out what is most important to me.

The Windows 8 People app doesn't yet show toast notifications as soon as we receive a new Facebook notification, and Xbox Music doesn't appear to include Facebook Music integration, so my listens are not shared to my Timeline. I'm hoping there is more to come and more to be announced regarding Xbox Music, so I'm not jumping to conclusions?I'm just commenting on what we've heard so far and what is included in the Windows 8 Xbox Music app so far. Facebook is very important to me, and Facebook Music integration is a must for me when I'm deciding which music streaming app to use. Considering all of the big music streaming players include it (Spotify, Rdio, MOG etc.), I think it would be silly for Microsoft to not include it, yet I wouldn't be surprised if they don't :/

There are many more Facebook features I'd like to see in both Windows 8 and Windows Phone, but those are what is most important to me.

I just can't seem to enjoy the look of the Start screen. I love the idea of it, I love the concept of live tiles, I believe the Start screen is much better than the old Start Menu, and I do like some design elements of it. But altogether, the Start screen just doesn't look quite right to me. That might be because of all of the different colours together, I'm not sure. I love the design of many "Metro" apps, though. I suspect the Start screen will grow on me at some point, so if I decide to stay with Windows 8, maybe it will.

As integration and consistency is important to me, I would prefer not to use a desktop operating system that looks and functions completely differently to my phone operating system. Right now, I prefer iOS 6 to Windows Phone 7, and there are specific features I'd like Microsoft to have added to Windows Phone 8 before I will prefer it to iOS, specifically toast Facebook notifications that actually work and Facebook Music integration in the Music app. Further, I am starting to become frustrated with the lack of apps that are important to me. Zeebox, Instagram, and some others are still not available as Windows Phone apps, and the Spotify app for Windows Phone does not share music listens to Facebook, like the iOS app does. If I opt to use an iPhone for those reasons, I will probably choose to use an iPad and a Mac over a Windows 8 tablet and a Windows 8 desktop PC.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Calum
I tried to put the points in a list, but IPB doesn't work well with placing a blank line after list points, when trying to ensure the post is clear -.-

[Shane Nokes]

Kinect is made for tablets.

Did you really just say that? /Facepalm

[Calum Veteran]

I think that there's a difference between "usable" and "designed for". For me "Metro Apps" are usable on the desktop, but some of their designe traits just scream "not designed for",,,

[. . .]

That sounds like a fair point. I'm not sure what to think about that because I've just loved using the "Metro" apps on a desktop with a large screen.

[. . .] Calum, if you'd step back for a second, you might get a whiff of the smoke Dot keeps blowing up your nether-yaya.

What do you mean by that? I always think for myself, and I don't allow others' views to influence mine. I always conclude for myself, after looking at both sides and seriously considering the points of both sides. I just happen to agree with a lot of what Dot Matrix says. He and I both appear to be having great experiences with Windows 8.

[. . .]

BTW: WTF at the poll? WinRT apps covers a lot of use case, from PC to tablet and to Phones. And it's a per case basis to see if they are good for each device. I can play solitaire with the mouse like in Windows 98, does it makes it a tablet apps just because it's using WinRT? Heck no.

As far as I am aware, at the moment, WinRT apps are only able to be developed for the new Windows 8 experience, so that's why I chose that label for the thread and poll title. If I'm wrong, though, can you think of a better term for me to use that refers only to apps built for the new Windows 8 experience, please? :)

[Shane Nokes]

I hope this is sarcasm, but if not, Kinect doesn't work out of the box with anything in Windows 8 :p There's also no support for it in the WinRT framework or any other part of the Windows framework.

You do realize that there's a Kinect for Windows device right? As of May the team was working on it and had partial deployment, but not full support. That was 3 months ago...

[Nashy]

I refer to them as apps.

[spaceelf]

http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/supersite-blog-39/windows8/winrt-replacing-win32-140605

Has noone read this?

And in the same vein of blowing past peoples' expectations, virtually no app could not be written as a WinRT app. Many are imagining very simple, HTML-like apps, and while I'm sure there will be plenty of those, you need to reset your expectations up. WinRT is amazingly full-featured and not constrained to goofy utilities and simple games. The next "Call of Duty" could be a WinRT app, complete with support for Edge UIs and Charms.

What you have available today is the tip of the iceberg...and a lot of user initiated misinformation based on that they don't like the current apps.

[MFH]

You do realize that there's a Kinect for Windows device right? As of May the team was working on it and had partial deployment, but not full support. That was 3 months ago...

Have you ever used Kinect with a PC? I have and unless they really up the soft- and hardware It's just a joke to consider that stuff more than a proof of concept (IMHO),,,

[Shane Nokes]

Have you ever used Kinect with a PC? I have and unless they really up the soft- and hardware It's just a joke to consider that stuff more than a proof of concept (IMHO),,,

Are you referring to using an Xbox 360 Kinect with Windows, or an actual Kinect for Windows? They behave differently.

[MFH]

Are you referring to using an Xbox 360 Kinect with Windows, or an actual Kinect for Windows? They behave differently.

Apart from minor changes they are exactly the same thing...