Customer kills gunman during Jacksonville robbery attempt

[Dinggus]

?He?s always been a marksman,? his wife said. ?He shoots in competitions, but this is the first time he?s ever killed anyone and I don?t know how he?ll handle that.?

So why did he fire 2 shots?, If he is a so called marksman was the arm/leg too difficult for this marksman to go after? (yes i know moving targets etc)

Like people said before me, center mass is easier to hit than limbs. Plus, why would you want the scumbag to live and pay for him while he rots in prison for 10-15years?

[Shane Nokes]

Well I understood the US RoE was based on Graduated Force but correct me if I am wrong. I know that the UK's RoE are that you cannot fire, even when you see a weapon, unless fired upon. Also the idea of Double Tapping is a bit ludicrous and best left in the movies, you have little control where the second shot will go when Double Tapping so it is always best to bring the weapon back to the firing position.

If you cannot fire a controlled grouping with a standard civilian issue firearm then you shouldn't be using that firearm.

[Dinggus]

Well I understood the US RoE was based on Graduated Force but correct me if I am wrong. I know that the UK's RoE are that you cannot fire, even when you see a weapon, unless fired upon. Also the idea of Double Tapping is a bit ludicrous and best left in the movies, you have little control where the second shot will go when Double Tapping so it is always best to bring the weapon back to the firing position.

If someone is to do bodily harm to another person (ie: rape), or kill someone, you have the right to engage the threat. Double tapping does work, your second shot is more accurate than you think.

[SupportGeek]

Well I understood the US RoE was based on Graduated Force but correct me if I am wrong. I know that the UK's RoE are that you cannot fire, even when you see a weapon, unless fired upon. Also the idea of Double Tapping is a bit ludicrous and best left in the movies, you have little control where the second shot will go when Double Tapping so it is always best to bring the weapon back to the firing position.

There is a difference between just seeing a weapon and having it pointed at someone. Ive seen reports where a US soldier has asked to engage somwone with an AK, but that individual is not deploying the weapon, the soldier was denied pwemission. A firearm pointed AT anyone is a clear and present danger.

A double tap is not a Hollywood invention, its actually a valid technique taught by firearms instructors all over. Dont carry something you cannot control is the bottom line, and most common calibers are very controllable for a follow up shot, im not aware of anyone that carries a 500 Smith or 454 Casull so im not seeing uncontrolled follow ups

[KingCracker]

I don't see why this is considered a positive outcome by many here. Rather than apprehending the would-be robber and trying him in a court of law he was shot dead. Taking somebody's life is not an appropriate punishment for robbery. From what I can tell from the article the customer wasn't in any direct danger and had he done nothing he would have escaped without injury.

This isn't justice. This is vigilantism. The US is reverting to the Wild West. How long will it be until disputes are settled by duels in the middle of the street?

[Shiranui]

I don't see why this is considered a positive outcome by many here. Rather than apprehending the would-be robber and trying him in a court of law he was shot dead. Taking somebody's life is not an appropriate punishment for robbery. From what I can tell from the article the customer wasn't in any direct danger and had he done nothing he would have escaped without injury.

This isn't justice. This is vigilantism. The US is reverting to the Wild West. How long will it be until disputes are settled by duels in the middle of the street?

Once again theyarecomingforyou is the voice of reason.

[KingCracker]

Once again theyarecomingforyou is the voice of reason.

Sure when someone has a gun out standing there and waiting for the cops to arrive and arrest him is surly the reasonable thing to do. When a gun is drawn, things are serious and its no time to stand there and tell the guy wait till I call the cops. :rolleyes: Secondly no the U.S isn't turning into the wild west and no duels wont happen.

[Depicus]

A double tap is not a Hollywood invention, its actually a valid technique taught by firearms instructors all over. Dont carry something you cannot control is the bottom line, and most common calibers are very controllable for a follow up shot, im not aware of anyone that carries a 500 Smith or 454 Casull so im not seeing uncontrolled follow ups

Double Tapping is great on the range and might be a valid method for very close range shooting but I was always taught never to fire unless you have the target in your sight. The idea that, under a stressful situation where your breathing and heartbeat are erratic, that you can drop the gun and have it be in exactly the place needed for the shot isn't realistic in the real world. When I was training we simulated by running the range (400m) with an ammo box over your head to get you knackered. Here the target doesn't move unlike in real life. Now firing twice in quick secession, yes and this guy knew how to handle a gun but I doubt very much he double tapped.

[jnelsoninjax]

Jacksonville robbery suspect charged with accomplice's death

A customer who shot and killed an armed robber inside a Jacksonville discount store Monday reacted with calm and precision in an extreme situation, police said Wednesday at a briefing on the arrest of a second suspect.

?He put himself in harm?s way by getting involved,? homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover said. ?To me, that is an extraordinary person to do that.?

The two men who came into the Dollar General at 1921 Dunn Ave. were holding CO2 BB pistols that resembled handguns and were threatening the two employees in the store, police said.

Police are not identifying the man who shot Rakeem Deveal Odoms, 22, at the counter where Odoms was holding the store manager at gunpoint. Odoms died at the scene from .45-caliber wounds to his head, chest and shoulder.

On Tuesday, police arrested Aundre Krishna Campbell, 19, of the 12300 block of Kiwi Court, as Odoms? accomplice. He was picked up on an unrelated burglary warrant after a family member contacted police. He was later charged with robbery and felony murder because Odoms died during the crime.

?To us, he prevented any other violence from happening,? Schoonover said of the man who was picking up groceries at the store when the attempted robbery unfolded just after 9 p.m. The manager and clerk in the store could have been harmed, he said.

The man, described by his family as a 57-year-old business owner and grandfather, was at the rear of the store and walked to the front where he pulled his concealed handgun about 5 feet from the suspects.

?He produced his weapon, [and] ordered both suspects to drop their guns,? Schoonover said. ?Rakeem Odoms did not. He fired three times, striking him, killing him at the scene.?

The suspect later identified as Campbell dropped his gun and ran, jumping into a white sport-utility vehicle and heading east.

?The citizen used good restraint in not firing at him,? Schoonover said.

Schoonover said store surveillance was helpful in determining what happened at the scene.

The two CO2 guns were recovered at the store.

Campbell and Odoms are being investigated for several other robberies in Jacksonville, Schoonover said.

The man?s family told the Times-Union he did not want to comment.

?He unfortunately got put in a situation,? his son said Wednesday.

And while his father understands he may have stopped something from escalating, there are consequences.

?He?s got to deal with taking someone else?s life.?

Source

[SupportGeek]

Double Tapping is great on the range and might be a valid method for very close range shooting but I was always taught never to fire unless you have the target in your sight. The idea that, under a stressful situation where your breathing and heartbeat are erratic, that you can drop the gun and have it be in exactly the place needed for the shot isn't realistic in the real world. When I was training we simulated by running the range (400m) with an ammo box over your head to get you knackered. Here the target doesn't move unlike in real life. Now firing twice in quick secession, yes and this guy knew how to handle a gun but I doubt very much he double tapped.

Most self defense situations ARE very close range shooting, average distance no more than 7 yards.

People who are serious about self defense train, and train often, often even tactically where stress comes into play. While it may only be at the range, I can fire 2 shots, center mass (about a 2.5 inch group), with less than a half second between shots at 7 yards, I'd bet someone like DocM blows me into the weeds. Thats more than good enough even with stress and a moving target.

This gentleman fired and hit the felon at least 3 times at close range, sounds like it may have been a typical 2 center mass "double tap" and 1 to the head after a quick assessment that the felon had not ceased to be a threat after the first 2 shots.

[Depicus]

Most self defense situations ARE very close range shooting, average distance no more than 7 yards.

People who are serious about self defense train, and train often, often even tactically where stress comes into play. While it may only be at the range, I can fire 2 shots, center mass (about a 2.5 inch group), with less than a half second between shots at 7 yards, I'd bet someone like DocM blows me into the weeds. Thats more than good enough even with stress and a moving target.

This gentleman fired and hit the felon at least 3 times at close range, sounds like it may have been a typical 2 center mass "double tap" and 1 to the head after a quick assessment that the felon had not ceased to be a threat after the first 2 shots.

Well from the post 2 up he shot from 5 feet away and from the linked article "Odoms died at the scene from .45-caliber wounds to his head, chest and shoulder"

He seems to have done everything right, but still wouldn't call that a double tap.

[SupportGeek]

Well from the post 2 up he shot from 5 feet away and from the linked article "Odoms died at the scene from .45-caliber wounds to his head, chest and shoulder"

He seems to have done everything right, but still wouldn't call that a double tap.

At this point Im just going to assume we aren't on the same page as to what a double tap is, and thats cool with me.

[Depicus]

At this point Im just going to assume we aren't on the same page as to what a double tap is, and thats cool with me.

:) and cool with me as well.

[necroxd]

Two to the chest one to the head. Marine training.

[Xilo]

Ukers really have no right to discuss anything in this thread like some of them are. After all, their own government tells them to let themselves get robbed and defending yourself gets you put in jail.

[FlintyV]

Ukers really have no right to discuss anything in this thread like some of them are. After all, their own government tells them to let themselves get robbed and defending yourself gets you put in jail.

I'm pretty sure people from countries other than the US are allowed to discuss this and no, you're allowed to defend yourself in the UK.

It's odd you think people from other countries shouldn't be able to talk about it.. strange.

Also another shooting in the US - Fatal US shooting at New Jersey supermarket

[Arachno 1D]

Rather an odd statement give the US has its hand and opnion in everybody elses going on

[KingCracker]

I'm pretty sure people from countries other than the US are allowed to discuss this and no, you're allowed to defend yourself in the UK.

It's odd you think people from other countries shouldn't be able to talk about it.. strange.

Also another shooting in the US - Fatal US shooting at New Jersey supermarket

You can talk about it but it doesn't mean you're right. Especially coming from a country where firearms are so restricted and very few people have experience with firearms. Most of what U.K people know about firearms is from the media and movies. Combine those two and it will form biased and uninformed views towards firearms.

Rather an odd statement give the US has its hand and opnion in everybody elses going on

Does it have a hand in the U.K's domestic issues? Does it tell them how to live in their countries? You might have a point if we're taking 3rd world countries but as far as western developed countries, no we don't have a hand in the domestic goings on of western developed nations.

[FlintyV]

You can talk about it but it doesn't mean you're right. Especially coming from a country where firearms are so restricted and very few people have experience with firearms. Most of what U.K people know about firearms is from the media and movies. Combine those two and it will form biased and uninformed views towards firearms.

Does it have a hand in the U.K's domestic issues? Does it tell them how to live in their countries?

Complete nonsense. Just because most people have never shot a gun doesn't have any impact on how informed they are or if there views are biased.

And yes It seems it's ingrained in the US Gov. to dictate how other countries should operate.

[Richteralan]

Ukers really have no right to discuss anything in this thread like some of them are. After all, their own government tells them to let themselves get robbed and defending yourself gets you put in jail.

Yes, so please stop discussing anything about Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, China, etc..etc... Americans really have no right to discuss anything about other countries.

[KingCracker]

Complete nonsense. Just because most people have never shot a gun doesn't have any impact on how informed they are or if there views are biased.

And yes It seems it's ingrained in the US Gov. to dictate how other countries should operate.

Does it tell yours how to operate domestically? And its not nonsense those that aren't used to firearms or raised around them or even touched them tend to not have favorable views towards them and lack general knowledge of them.

[hamslammer]

?He?s always been a marksman,? his wife said. ?He shoots in competitions, but this is the first time he?s ever killed anyone and I don?t know how he?ll handle that.?

So why did he fire 2 shots?, If he is a so called marksman was the arm/leg too difficult for this marksman to go after? (yes i know moving targets etc)

It's apparent from your ignorant reply that you know nothing about firearms and self-defense. If I'm in that situation, I'll keep shooting until the armed intruder is down and I know he isn't going to get back up. It's extremely easy for someone like yourself to be an arm chair quarterback, I'd love to see someone like yourself in that situation. Great job by the customer!

[Depicus]

Does it tell yours how to operate domestically? And its not nonsense those that aren't used to firearms or raised around them or even touched them tend to not have favorable views towards them and lack general knowledge of them.

I've never had sex with an 8 year old boy but I know it's wrong and can discuss it rationally without reverting to stereotypes.

[KingCracker]

I've never had sex with an 8 year old boy but I know it's wrong and can discuss it rationally without reverting to stereotypes.

So you're equating guns and self defense to pedophilia? Really???

First of all Self defense is protecting your life against a threat that is trying to kill you. Pedophilia is a disease that makes adults sexually abuse a defenseless child that will cause physical and most likely mental harm. Shooting someone to save your life is NO WHERE near pedophilia. They are on two different levels, they aren't even in the same universe.

[BillyJack]

I don't see why this is considered a positive outcome by many here. Rather than apprehending the would-be robber and trying him in a court of law he was shot dead. Taking somebody's life is not an appropriate punishment for robbery. From what I can tell from the article the customer wasn't in any direct danger and had he done nothing he would have escaped without injury.

This isn't justice. This is vigilantism. The US is reverting to the Wild West. How long will it be until disputes are settled by duels in the middle of the street?

I agree with you but you cannot for sure say nothing would have happened. Just because he did not know what was going to happen does not mean he can take action. This guy had no authority to take action and like you said, we just can't have vigilantism.

Florida has the Stand Your Ground law. I wonder if this guy told the other two guys that he was standing his ground before shooting and if he did would that give him a legitimate reason to fire upon the robbers.