Two female police officers killed in Manchester by gunman

[SongHyeonDeok]

Oh look a sad news story turned into a UK versus USA ****ing contest... I've never seen one of these before.

[Tom]

And the majority of those are killed by legal gun owners? I'd like someone to point me to statistics that say that. There are none..

I have a few people on FB that keep me aware of goings on in manchester. It helps me cut through all the B.S about how everyone in the U.K is safe.

Get the hell out of this thread please. I live in Manchester and can tell you that you're talking utter nonsense. To bring your gun agenda in here after this incident is not only disrespectful but shows how you try to throw your own uneducated political views at people, no matter the circumstance.

Also just a quick FYI, 84 police officers in the US have been killed in 2012. 40% have been the result of guns. If we compare that to the last ten years in the UK, 22 have been killed. 27% have been a result of guns. Now get your gun agenda the hell out of this topic thanks.

[theyarecomingforyou]

"Shots Fired!!"....OK Send in the unarmed Officers.

Surprisingly enough that's not how the UK police force operates. Personally I'm glad that our police aren't armed, as I always feel uncomfortable when I go abroad and see police officers walking around with handguns / machine guns. Neither the public nor the police themselves want the majority of our police to be armed and it's a policy that has been extremely successful - very few police officers have been killed on active duty. In the past ten years there were three years where no police officers were killed on duty and the rest of the time you're looking at between 2-3 a year on average.

Another interesting statistic is the number of people killed by law enforcement agents in the UK compared with the US. According to those lists just one person was killed in the UK by police and a criminal proceeding is under way against the officer involved; in the US there were three-hundred-and-two people killed and usually no action is taken against the officers. [Those numbers don't take into account deaths in police custody, so numbers rise for both countries when they are factored in - in the US that's about 700 per year, in the UK it's around 40.] Most of the deaths in the US were the result of police officers carrying weapons. When you factor in all these statistics you start to realise why people in the UK feel so much safer than in the US and that's despite the fact that the US has the highest incarceration level in the world - you'd think with so many people locked up in the US it would be a really safe country.

[*RedBull*]

^ Where I think you have the most intelligent response to my post, I still disagree with not having guns for police. I respect your POV. Thank you for having intelligence to realize that I was saying how stupid it was for Unarmed cops to be going toward gun fire. I feel for their deaths but it could have been avoided. Standard procedure with shots fired is to wait for back up Especially if you don't have a weapon. Again I think you Sir for your ability to think abstractly and express your thoughts in such an astute way.

But on a cultural note. The USA is nothing like the culture in the UK in some respects. UK seems to have that similarity somewhat with Japan. No guns. Well criminals still have guns and people get shot. Police have to have guns at some point otherwise criminals will ruin everything.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Thank you for having intelligence to realize that I was saying how stupid it was for Unarmed cops to be going toward gun fire. I feel for their deaths but it could have been avoided. Standard procedure with shots fired is to wait for back up Especially if you don't have a weapon

If you're talking about this incident then according to this article they were responding to a call about a burglary, which was fabricated to bring police officers to the property. There is no mention of shots being fired before they were sent in. The address was unknown to the police, so there was no reason to suspect foul play. It was once they were inside that they were fired upon and a grenade was detonated. Unarmed police officers aren't sent to deal with firearms related offences - for that firearms units are deployed. Unless you've seen a different report or I've misread it?

[Farstrider]

^Yes, according to the BBC:

Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Sir Peter Fahy said someone had made a call alleging a burglary had been committed and when the officers arrived they were attacked with a gun and a grenade. He said: "We believe he has made the call, or somebody else has made the call, and it would appear for the purposes of drawing these two officers to that particular scene, and then he has come out and shot and killed them both.

So, NO reports of ANY gunfire prior to the fatal incident! Common sense dictates that you do not send unarmed officers to a possible crime scene where gunfire/shots have been fired!

[KingCracker]

Get the hell out of this thread please. I live in Manchester and can tell you that you're talking utter nonsense. To bring your gun agenda in here after this incident is not only disrespectful but shows how you try to throw your own uneducated political views at people, no matter the circumstance.

Also just a quick FYI, 84 police officers in the US have been killed in 2012. 40% have been the result of guns. If we compare that to the last ten years in the UK, 22 have been killed. 27% have been a result of guns. Now get your gun agenda the hell out of this topic thanks.

Yeah sure, maybe when you all stop sticking your nose in everything to do with the U.S then maybe i'll listen but until then nope. If you don't like my opinion tough. This is an international forum i've been told so I'm allowed to have an opinion.

[Shiranui]

UK seems to have that similarity somewhat with Japan.

Except, Japan doesn't have quite so many chavs.

To the fool who claimed that no copper had been killed since 1967 ... (statistically improbable and kindly disproved by Floating Fatman) ever heard of Yvonne Fletcher?

It is true what theyarecomingforyou says about armed police officers, when I was on holiday in Paris with the wife in 2005, there were police in Montmartre armed with machine guns! It was more than a little unnerving. A week after we left, the Paris riots broke out, however, so perhaps they got a chance to use them.

[KingCracker]

Except, Japan doesn't have quite so many chavs.

To the fool who claimed that no copper had been killed since 1967 ... (statistically improbable and kindly disproved by Floating Fatman) ever heard of Yvonne Fletcher?

It is true what theyarecomingforyou says about armed police officers, when I was on holiday in Paris with the wife in 2005, there were police in Montmartre armed with machine guns! It was more than a little unnerving. A week after we left, the Paris riots broke out, however, so perhaps they got a chance to use them.

Only if you're not use to it. It wouldn't bother me. Guns aren't scary to me so.

[Growled Member]

Very sad news. My condolences.

[Nothing Here]

Personally I'm glad that our police aren't armed, as I always feel uncomfortable when I go abroad and see police officers walking around with handguns / machine guns.

Machine guns? Where have you been traveling? Not the States. Anyways, I personally feel safer seeing our police with firearms. Where I live now, Joe Q. Public can open carry. Where I used to live it was concealed carry.

[Nathaniel Smith_329019]

How can anyone comprehend what you are talking about? It's hard to comprehend bull ****.

Other countries don't have the same mentality as the US so a ghetto in the States is NOT the same thing as one in Europe.

The ghettos in Germany banned guns and look at the death toll.

[FlintyV]

Yeah sure, maybe when you all stop sticking your nose in everything to do with the U.S then maybe i'll listen but until then nope. If you don't like my opinion tough. This is an international forum i've been told so I'm allowed to have an opinion.

Surely you're kidding? You were the third person to post in this thread (which has since been deleted) and was sarcastically saying how there's no gun crime in the UK in order to provoke a gun debate!

No one had even mentioned the US in this thread until you provoked it and then complain when people bring comparisons to the US?!

[KingCracker]

Surely you're kidding? You were the third person to post in this thread (which has since been deleted) and was sarcastically saying how there's no gun crime in the UK in order to provoke a gun debate!

No one had even mentioned the US in this thread until you provoked it and then complain when people bring comparisons to the US?!

No one wants to have a debate about it because to you all its all one sided. I've heard it before, everyone is safe and the shootings are so minimal that they pretty much never happen. You don't want a debate because you want it swept under the rug so it suits your point of view which is there is little gun violence in the u.k. The UK is far from a safe place, it has the highest crime rates of all of western Europe...

[FlintyV]

No one wants to have a debate about it because to you all its all one sided. I've heard it before, everyone is safe and the shootings are so minimal that they pretty much never happen. You don't want a debate because you want it swept under the rug so it suits your point of view which is there is little gun violence in the u.k. The UK is far from a safe place, it has the highest crime rates of all of western Europe...

I don't mind having a gun debate... in the dedicated gun debate thread. Not every thread has to be skewed to allow you to debate guns as there's already a nice thread for that.

I've had the debates. I've heard how you think civilians with guns would have stopped World War 2 and the holocaust and killed Hitler. I've heard it.

[Pam14160]

The UK is safer due to the gun restrictions we have in place - statistically, perceptually, factually. Cities like London and Manchester do have higher rates of gun crime but it's still a fraction of that seen in the US. In this case we're talking about a hardened criminal with access to illegal firearms and grenades; in the US most mass shootings are committed with legally owned firearms.

Are you just generalizing or is there a case study that you can point us to. . .

[theyarecomingforyou]

Machine guns? Where have you been traveling?

I don't know if I used the correct terminology but when I visited Egypt there were plenty of AK-47s being carried around and in airports in the UK police carry sub-machine guns. Despite the fact I have shotguns in the house and go out shooting with them I still don't like being around people carrying guns, just as I don't like being around people holding knives (even if it's someone you know in the kitchen); it's not that I'm afraid, I'm just uncomfortable around them.

No one wants to have a debate about it because to you all its all one sided. I've heard it before, everyone is safe and the shootings are so minimal that they pretty much never happen.

And yet you keep provoking these debates, despite the fact that people have demonstrated statistically and factually that the UK is a safer place in large part because of firearms restrictions.

You don't want a debate because you want it swept under the rug so it suits your point of view which is there is little gun violence in the u.k.

That couldn't be further from the truth if you tried! Most people are entirely happy to debate the subject, it's just that you refuse to recognise the points people like myself make and instead repeat the same unsupported nonsense again and again. Nothing is being swept under the rug. But factually there is very little gun violence in the UK, especially in comparison to the US.

The UK is far from a safe place, it has the highest crime rates of all of western Europe...

What you fail to recognise is that the UK is a safer country than the US, which is especially relevant when you're advocating the failed US policies as a 'solution' to our problems. Nobody claimed that the UK doesn't have violent crime or gun crime. But people do feel safer walking around. Whenever I make points I source out statistics and provide sources to support my argument - you just make baseless accusations and then accuse everybody else of having the problem.

[Farstrider]

I've had the debates. I've heard how you think civilians with guns would have stopped World War 2 and the holocaust and killed Hitler. I've heard it.

Sorry I know this is perhaps a little facetious, but in my opinion the best line of the day!! :laugh:

[theyarecomingforyou]

Are you just generalizing or is there a case study that you can point us to. . .

I've provided source and source in these debates, including many in this topic. There's a page here that lists firearms fatalities by country. And any number of Google searches will bring up plenty of supporting evidence.

[KingCracker]

I don't know if I used the correct terminology but when I visited Egypt there were plenty of AK-47s being carried around and in airports in the UK police carry sub-machine guns. Despite the fact I have shotguns in the house and go out shooting with them I still don't like being around people carrying guns, just as I don't like being around people holding knives (even if it's someone you know in the kitchen); it's not that I'm afraid, I'm just uncomfortable around them.

And yet you keep provoking these debates, despite the fact that people have demonstrated statistically and factually that the UK is a safer place in large part because of firearms restrictions.

That couldn't be further from the truth if you tried! Most people are entirely happy to debate the subject, it's just that you refuse to recognise the points people like myself make and instead repeat the same unsupported nonsense again and again. Nothing is being swept under the rug. But factually there is very little gun violence in the UK, especially in comparison to the US.

What you fail to recognise is that the UK is a safer country than the US, which is especially relevant when you're advocating the failed US policies as a 'solution' to our problems. Nobody claimed that the UK doesn't have violent crime or gun crime. But people do feel safer walking around. Whenever I make points I source out statistics and provide sources to support my argument - you just make baseless accusations and then accuse everybody else of having the problem.

You are a scared individual. You don't like people carrying guns because you are scared of what people might do, the same with knives. I see the reason now why you are want guns banned because you have an irrational fear of guns and dangerous things. Secondly I didn't advocate in this thread that the U.K should have policies like the U.S. If I have point me to where I said that. I simply pointed out that your country isn't some magical place where humans all live in harmony like you would like us to believe. If you want to compare your country, compare it with other European countries other than the U.S . Europe is more closely tied to your way of thinking and not the U.S so compare your crime statistics to countries in Europe. Sure you'll point to the U.S and say look at us we're sooo much better than you, but yet we live differently than you, we don't have the same mind set. Compare Apples to Apples will you..

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz26sPxdjhL

Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power.

The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

Opposition leaders said the disclosures were a "damning indictment" of the Government's failure to tackle deep-rooted social problems.

The figures combined crime statistics for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The UK had a greater number of murders in 2007 than any other EU country ? 927 ? and at a relative rate higher than most western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

http://www.telegraph...-of-Europe.html

[FlintyV]

You are a scared individual. You don't like people carrying guns because you are scared of what people might do, the same with knives. I see the reason now why you are want guns banned because you have an irrational fear of guns and dangerous things. Secondly I didn't advocate in this thread that the U.K should have policies like the U.S. If I have point me to where I said that. I simply pointed out that your country isn't some magical place where humans all live in harmony like you would like us to believe. If you want to compare your country, compare it with other European countries than the U.S is. Europe is more closely tied to your way of thinking and not the U.S so compare your crime statistics to countries in Europe. Sure you'll point to the U.S and say look at us we're sooo much better than you, but yet we live differently than you, we don't have the same mind set. Compare Apples to Apples will you..

A. You should never use DailyMail.

B. You were talking about gun crime and now you've gone way off topic and talking about all crime?

You keep saying people tell you that there's no crime in Britain, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that on here.

[KingCracker]

A. You should never use DailyMail. B. You were talking about gun crime and now you've gone way off topic.

You keep saying people tell you that there's no crime in Britain, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that on here.

I can give you a dozen links showing that the UK is one of the most dangerous places in the western world and most certainly the most dangerous of all western European countries. People act as if there is little crime but studies prove otherwise. Claiming that gun bans made the country a safer place. Really? The statistics don't prove that. It looks like violent crime is still up.

[bj55555]

And the majority of those are killed by legal gun owners? I'd like someone to point me to statistics that say that. There are none..

When gun manufacturers produce guns do they set aside guns for legal purchase and guns for illegal purchase? Every gun owned illegally was produced to supply legal owners, but somehow they don't always get into nor do they stay in legal hands, do they? That's the crux of the problem. There are enough god damn guns in this country to supply practically every man, woman, and child. The voracious appetite for guns by legal gun toters is the very reason so many guns are illegally owned.

[Azusa]

It is true what theyarecomingforyou says about armed police officers, when I was on holiday in Paris with the wife in 2005, there were police in Montmartre armed with machine guns! It was more than a little unnerving. A week after we left, the Paris riots broke out, however, so perhaps they got a chance to use them.

I never felt off when i was in Paris and this was on the run up to bastille day so there were even troops with FAMAS assault rifles then again i noticed some were missing their magazines and even in London there are some places where you see armed officers with MP5s and the like.

On a personal note i was kinda shocked to learn that some of the armed response units in the UK use H&K G3s who the heck are they up against?

[FlintyV]

I can give you a dozen links showing that the UK is one of the most dangerous places in the western world and most certainly the most dangerous of all western European countries. People act as if there is little crime but studies prove otherwise. Claiming that gun bans made the country a safer place. Really? The statistics don't prove that. It looks like violent crime is still up.

You could and I could do the same. I think it's common sense to say strict gun controls bring down crime, I can't see how it'd make it worse and I wouldn't want to trust earlier crime figures before the strict gun laws came into place.

But more to the point I thought you didn't like people comparing their countries to the US?