Valve: Linux More Viable Than Windows 8 for Gaming

[spaceelf]

Look, guys, shut up already. Source WAS replaced already. I believe the new engine is in CS:GO and Dota 2.

While I have heard from many sources that Source has become clunky in its old age, I haven't heard much about it recently.

[Athernar]

Look, guys, shut up already. Source WAS replaced already. I believe the new engine is in CS:GO and Dota 2.

While I have heard from many sources that Source has become clunky in its old age, I haven't heard much about it recently.

Nope. Dota 2 and CS:GO are still Source. They're both different (newer) branches of the engine, but it's still Source.

CS:GO has stuff like cascaded shadow maps, whereas Dota 2 has world lighting and cloth simulation.

[spaceelf]

Nope. Dota 2 and CS:GO are still Source. They're both different (newer) branches of the engine, but it's still Source.

CS:GO has stuff like cascaded shadow maps, whereas Dota 2 has world lighting and cloth simulation.

I am aware of this, but they were internally designated Source 2.0 last I heard.

[Corvini]

And you know what will happen? Anyone who tries Linux will try to open any number of Office documents, take one look at the screwed up formatting, and say forget this.

You mean Microsoft Office documents? I don't create or use those proprietary formats, I use ODF, the universally available ISO standard. Governments are mandating ODF. If anyone gives me a Microsoft formatted document, I tell them to give me an ODF, because I don't use proprietary formats.

Linux proponents will blame file formats

Microsoft formats are obsolete now. It's not even an issue anymore.

On top of that, Linux will have zero compatibility OotB with any games they already own

and nobody will give a flaming crap, because to the user, the ONLY variable that changed was the OS.

Windows doesn't run my elf binaries/games. Therefore Windows must be deficient..

And will Windows RT users feel the same way when it won't run any games they own?

The vast majority of your Steam libraries will NEVER be ported to Linux code

Hate all you want, but I'm looking forward to playing L4D2 when it gets released ;)

Windows 8 will be improving and shipping on new PCs left and right

And returning left and right. Don't forget, like with Vista, Microsoft still counts Windows 7 downgrades as a Windows 8 sale.

and Apple will be rounding out everyone who doesn't want Microsoft's platform. There is no room for Linux with consumers. Period.

I guess that's why Dell, Lenovo, Asus, HP, and others sell PCs now with GNU/Linux preinstalled? Linux adoption is growing, all the while, Windows is declining. People just don't need Windows anymore like they used to. It's a fact of life. Microsoft's heyday is long behind them.

[Noir Angel]

The fact that hes calling ubuntu reliable is a joke. Its undergone huge GUI transformations regularly over the past like 6 versions. Windows gets a new GUI once and theyre making a fuss. Though, its more about the fact that the windows store is competition than anything, they cant hide that. As for the win8 haters, i bet most of them have webbed feet to, cause theyre just dumb.

The difference is Ubuntu is open source, and there are plenty of alternatives to change the UI. And Ubuntu don't purposely go to the additional step of retrospectively removing code to make the old setup impossible to restore. With the changes to Windows 8, it's basically a case of "put up or shut up". Ubuntu is by no means perfect, but it's a sense of freedom that isn't being given with Windows 8

Wow so many Windows 8 fanboys posting their one sided views here. Luckily for Valve and everyone else in the world, you guys don't have a say in what Valve does with their own products, and they're certainly entitled to their own opinion when it comes to their platform. If they want to bring it to Linux, then they can certainly bring it to Linux, it's not like they're going to drop Windows support, not when so many Non-Valve games support only Windows.

Amen, some common sense at last.

Well Origin gave me ~96 Mbit DL speed.

Valve gave me 7 Mbit.

Priorities.

When I downloaded Portal 2 (on release day I might add) I downloaded it at a constant 6 MB/s (was on 50 mbps cable at the time). Sometimes steam's servers can be spotty but it's usually not that bad.

[Athernar]

I am aware of this, but they were internally designated Source 2.0 last I heard.

I'm not so sure of this, but if that truely is the case then it's bad news for the Source 2 "redesign" camp. There isn't anything significantly different in either release other than the features I mentioned.

Do a mat_info in the dev console and you'll see what I mean.

[Shadrack]

You get better FPS in Left for Dead 2 for linux

Umm..ok... there could be a whole host of reasons why that is. It may be completely up to the developers. All that I will say (and stand by because it is based in personal experience) is that cross-platform games written for Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X tend to run better in Windows. I hope that this effort that Valve is making changes that. I'm sure you can pick and choose all kinds of examples that go against my conclusions based upon my experience.... but my conclusion is consistent with the general consensus of gamers who have tried gaming in Linux.

[ArialBlue]

The difference is Ubuntu is open source, and there are plenty of alternatives to change the UI. And Ubuntu don't purposely go to the additional step of retrospectively removing code to make the old setup impossible to restore. With the changes to Windows 8, it's basically a case of "put up or shut up". Ubuntu is by no means perfect, but it's a sense of freedom that isn't being given with Windows 8

When I downloaded Portal 2 (on release day I might add) I downloaded it at a constant 6 MB/s (was on 50 mbps cable at the time). Sometimes steam's servers can be spotty but it's usually not that bad.

The main difference between Linux distributions over time vs. Windows over time is simple.

I can still run games from 1999 on Windows - without doing anything extra.

The point is simple. Valve is prioritizing alienated most of its audience by focusing on legacy OS instead of doing useful things like upgrading its servers.

*air*

No one uses ODF aside from hipsters. If you sent an ODF to some professor, they will tell you to GTFO.

Yes. People do not need Windows as much anymore. They need iPhones, iPads, Droids, and Mac.

[Corvini]

All that I will say (and stand by because it is based in personal experience) is that cross-platform games written for Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X tend to run better in Windows.

If a game is written on and optimised for Windows, then only later ported with minimal effort to other platforms, what do you expect? The interesting thing here is, the Valve Linux team actually spent time optimising the Source engine, collaborating with graphics stack developers, and fixing bottle necks. And by treating Linux as a first class citizen in this way, they found that it actually ran faster than on Windows, where it was developed and optimised for originally.

but my conclusion is consistent with the general consensus of gamers who have tried gaming in Linux.

Because you're talking about multiplatform games that were primarily written and optimised for Windows, not Linux.

[Joshie]

Consider yourself lucky! I'm going to go through, take your post seriously, and address your empty concerns one by one.

You mean Microsoft Office documents? I don't create or use those proprietary formats, I use ODF, the universally available ISO standard. Governments are mandating ODF. If anyone gives me a Microsoft formatted document, I tell them to give me an ODF, because I don't use proprietary formats.

Microsoft formats are obsolete now. It's not even an issue anymore.

My argument was about consumers. Seriously, go back and read it. I'll wait. Now, let's talk facts. Microsoft Office is, by an enormous margin, the dominant document creation software suite. Word is the only word processor that matters. Excel is the only spreadsheet application that matters. People don't make "slide shows" anymore, they make PowerPoints. Keeping up so far?

Right here, on Neowin's own forums, you'll find plenty of people proudly claiming to still use Office 2003 out of sheer hatred for the ribbon UI. Millions upon millions of people still use Office 2003 for document creation. Do you want to know HOW important compatibility with old Office formats are? Here's a hint: http://www.eweek.com/enterprise-apps/google-delays-end-of-export-support-for-old-microsoft-office-formats/

Yeah. Clearly Microsoft formats are "not even an issue anymore". Oh wait, no, you just have your fingers nowhere near the pulse of the industry. So I don't care about YOUR habits. Your habits, frankly, are meaningless and have no bearing whatsoever on the reality of the consumer market. Nobody cares what formats you demand, because you're a minority. Everyone you send away is thinking of you as an obstacle. They aren't annoyed by an obsolete file format. They're annoyed by you.

Windows doesn't run my elf binaries/games. Therefore Windows must be deficient..

And will Windows RT users feel the same way when it won't run any games they own?

Hate all you want, but I'm looking forward to playing L4D2 when it gets released

You aren't even making an argument now. Elf binary compatibility doesn't matter, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with Steam drawing Windows users to Linux. Nothing. It's utterly irrelevant, and while compatibility with your existing library of games from Windows matters to swarms of paying customers, compatibility with elf will never have any impact on any market. Ever.

As for Windows RT, two things: (1) Install Windows 8 Pro, problem solved. (2) You can't install Steam on Windows RT in the first place, so RT users aren't going to be faced with a functionally useless client like Linux users will. RT users will never deal with seeing Skyrim listed in their Steam library with no explanation why they will never be allowed to install it.

And returning left and right. Don't forget, like with Vista, Microsoft still counts Windows 7 downgrades as a Windows 8 sale.

Returning, eh? Do you have statistics on Windows Vista returns? They aren't what you think they are. Vista was about slow adoption, and yet it still had hundreds of millions of users. If you'd like to see returns, though, there is one great example: this great big market *disaster* called Linux netbooks. Those actually were returned. En masse. For Windows.

I guess that's why Dell, Lenovo, Asus, HP, and others sell PCs now with GNU/Linux preinstalled? Linux adoption is growing, all the while, Windows is declining. People just don't need Windows anymore like they used to. It's a fact of life. Microsoft's heyday is long behind them.

You have to call to get Linux pre-installed on more vendors than you seem to realize. I just bought four different Lenovo devices and was never asked if I wanted any OS other than Windows. It's hidden, because it's not in demand. I'm not even sure why you seem to be saying this so smugly. People have been talking about Linux's increasing market share for over a DECADE, and it's still a useless segment of the market. It's still below 2%, and every time it's ever inched its way toward the marketshare Apple had when they were *failing* in the 90s, it's sunk right back down the next year.

You're living in the same fantasy world as the "year of the Linux desktop" crowd, and you're so completely invested in it, that you allow yourself to make off-topic 'arguments' that don't even disprove anything I say. I honestly don't know why you spent the time writing your post.

[spaceelf]

I'm not so sure of this, but if that truely is the case then it's bad news for the Source 2 "redesign" camp. There isn't anything significantly different in either release other than the features I mentioned.

Do a mat_info in the dev console and you'll see what I mean.

I actually don't know if it's true, it was based on limited info. However, there is still this bit floating around

Source Engine 2

In August 2012, the Valve fan site Valve Time revealed that Valve might be in development of a "Source Engine 2", based off coding from the Source Filmmaker that directed technology from the upcoming version.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_(game_engine)

[Doli]

I think Gabe just needs to put Steam on the App store but not as a Metro app, just a link to the Steam website so people can download Steam. Desktop programs can be listed in the store and all they do open a web link, well that's what people are saying I have not see any yet. Just don't have Windows RT listed as "Supported" in the app store. For people who don't know about Steam this is a great opportunity to get more users because a lot of people will be checking out the Store App. Steam has a lot of F2P games so people will already have a lot of games without spending any money.

Steam better start pushing out their Source engine to other developers more because I cant see Steam on Ubuntu if its just Source games, small developers, and Humble Indie Bundles.

[Athernar]

I actually don't know if it's true, it was based on limited info. However, there is still this bit floating around

http://en.wikipedia....ce_(game_engine)

Yeah, I'm familiar with the leak. At this point it seems to be mainly a second stab at 64-bit and an updated toolset built with Python/Qt like SFM is. Time will tell I guess.

[PGHammer]

The thing I don't get is why Microsoft should just roll over and die.

Pretty obvious the simple, sleak app model is what users want so Microsoft has to adapt, very late to the game.

Doesn't mean they should forget their roots as that would be be monumentally stupid and if anyone thinks Microsoft will close up Windows, then I fear for their safety outside in the real world.

Microsofts best model going forward is the app store model along with their standard open Windows enviroment.

As for Valve and Steam, their consumers aren't people who only buy 99p mobile games from an app store. What have they to fear, losing customers they never would get in the first place. Best of luck to them going forward with Linux, Mac and Windows, just stop acting like the world is ending and Microsoft is somehow in the wrong.

The mobile-style app model (used by Android and iOS) is popular for content consumers and developers - for Microsoft to ignore that would be stupid.

However, in what way does that endanger Win32?

There is, in fact, very little crossover between WinRT and Win32 - look at the major WinRT developers in the Windows 8 App Store today. How many of these development studios *also* write Win32 applications or games? Fifty percent? Forty percent? Twenty-five percent? Less?

How much crossover is there between iOS and the full OS X application market? Between Android and Linux?

The crossover isn't there, and it likely isn't going to BE there, either.

There's likely to be more crossover between consoles and WinRT; however, that is because the APIs between them are similar enough that the crossover was not only depressingly easily doable, it is fully fleshed out (Pinball FX2 is a crossover from consoles).

I think that the REAL reason Valve is going into Linux is because nobody else is really there - and especially not Microsoft and Apple. It isn't about locked-down platforms, but avoiding the competition.

Competition in the Windows space - and in the mobile space - is about to get seriously kicked up a few notches. Between platforms (Android/iOS/Windows Phone and WinRT in the mobile space, and between WinRT, Android, and iOS in the device space, and Win32 vs. consoles and even consoles vs. WinRT on desktops), and between everybody. The desktop isn't going anywhere anytime soon - and certainly not due to anything in the WinRT API. If anything, the addition of WinRT to the API mix has increased competition - not decreased it. (After all, what did the WinRT API take the place of? Absolutely nothing.)

Blizzard thinks it can compete; Valve, however, is scared.

Valve is not Blizzard - they are a developer, publisher, and distribution hub. (That is why they got horked off over EA's development of Origin - which competes directly with Steam. EA was also one of the largest non-Valve developers that used Steam as distribution hub, therefore Valve had a vested interest in EA using Steam exclusively.) The two games Microsoft distributes electronically - Age of Empires Online and the now-cancelled Microsoft Flight - are distributed via Steam; neither will be distributed via the Windows 8 App Store. What has Valve scared is the portability of console-type games (such as XBLA) to WinRT, as opposed to Source; Zen Studios has plowed the road for these (largely indie) developers - Pinball FX2 doubtless is what set off alarums at Valve. In other words, it's not really an application-distribution issue, but a development AND distribution issue. With Source, Valve has complete control from end to end - with any other API, they don't.

Valve is also quite aware that Microsoft has increased the availability of their developer tools to indie developers (the Spark series added two new programs - GovSpark and Website Spark - in the past month alone; both include Visual Studio 2012 Professional). Valve doesn't think they can compete heads-up against Microsoft as a distributor/development-tools house - therefore, it wants to avoid them as much as possible.

Yes - it sounds like a variation on the Apple Strategem.

Question is, will it help Valve as much as it has helped Apple?

[Shadrack]

If a game is written on and optimised for Windows, then only later ported with minimal effort to other platforms, what do you expect? The interesting thing here is, the Valve Linux team actually spent time optimising the Source engine, collaborating with graphics stack developers, and fixing bottle necks. And by treating Linux as a first class citizen in this way, they found that it actually ran faster than on Windows, where it was developed and optimised for originally.

Because you're talking about multiplatform games that were primarily written and optimised for Windows, not Linux.

Yeah, and that is basically what I said in my original post (not the one you quoted, the one before that). Why do you people keep quoting only a small section of what I said in order to make it sound like I'm Anti-Linux-Gaming? That's not at all my position. All my posts have stated clearly that I'm pro-Linux-Gaming and I hope that Valve's efforts here are not lost.

Is this typical Linux crowd dynamics of always trying to start a fight or what? It's really annoying.

[BajiRav]

Developers

Right, and where are the developers claiming that the Windows Store cut is not fair? We only have a competitor i.e. Steam crying foul here. If they port Steam and games to Linux, more power to them but there is no point in trash talking Windows 8 with all this open FUD. If steam really cared about Linux like openness, they wouldn't put DRM on their games. I love how Linux fanboys who hate Microsoft for Windows DRM are openly emracing Valve and Steam now.

The cut is negotiated per-product and is covered by NDA iirc, so arguing based on a hearsay is silly.

Also in terms of install location, you'll want to check this out until such time as they slap a UI on it.

Lastly, I'd argue that when it comes to PC games and PC gamers, you're overestimating the Windows Store. Gamers hold grudges, and they really, really don't like Microsoft's past "investments" in the market. (GfwL)

Oh it's under NDA? I was made to believe that Valve are more open than Microsoft's Windows Store where all guidelines and cuts are known even before a developer pays anything to Microsoft?

[Reacon]

Let's see here:

1. Steam on Linux will pave the roads to easily adoptable Linux gaming.

2. Microsoft is moving in an Apple-like direction of All-In-One machines that "Just work," with a closed, controlled software ecosystem.

Why is this article so controversial? Do I smell fanboys?

[HawkMan]

Let's see here:

1. Steam on Linux will pave the roads to easily adoptable Linux gaming.

2. Microsoft is moving in an Apple-like direction of All-In-One machines that "Just work," with a closed, controlled software ecosystem.

Why is this article so controversial? Do I smell fanboys?

1: No it won't Steam being on linux doesn't pave a single road. this has been exxlained many times before. the developers of the games still need to spend a LOT of money to make a linux port, a port that due to the low amount of linux users, and thus the low amount of linux gamers will never be made back.

[FloatingFatMan]

You mean Microsoft Office documents? I don't create or use those proprietary formats, I use ODF, the universally available ISO standard. Governments are mandating ODF. If anyone gives me a Microsoft formatted document, I tell them to give me an ODF, because I don't use proprietary formats.

Microsoft formats are obsolete now. It's not even an issue anymore.

Maybe in your little fantasy land of Linux fanboi's that might be true. But in the real world of business (where most of MS's profits lie), EVERYone uses MS Office and its file formats. There is no viable alternative.

[slider123456]

1: No it won't Steam being on linux doesn't pave a single road. this has been exxlained many times before. the developers of the games still need to spend a LOT of money to make a linux port, a port that due to the low amount of linux users, and thus the low amount of linux gamers will never be made back.

Is there a low amount of Linux users because there are no linux game ports or is there no linux game ports because there are a low amout of linux users? Sounds like the chicken and the egg to me and if the former is the case then Steam on linux will pave a single road, namely, creating more linux users and maybe eventually gaining more attention from more developers potentially widening its compatibility base with legacy and modern windows operating system programs allowing it to, even if it is just a remote possibility, leave its current semi niche market and enter the mainstream. Without game ports from some major players that has absolutely zero chance of ever happening. With game ports the odds are still extremely slim but it is still infinitely greater than zero.

[Yogurtmaster]

The difference is Ubuntu is open source, and there are plenty of alternatives to change the UI. And Ubuntu don't purposely go to the additional step of retrospectively removing code to make the old setup impossible to restore. With the changes to Windows 8, it's basically a case of "put up or shut up". Ubuntu is by no means perfect, but it's a sense of freedom that isn't being given with Windows 8

Amen, some common sense at last.

When I downloaded Portal 2 (on release day I might add) I downloaded it at a constant 6 MB/s (was on 50 mbps cable at the time). Sometimes steam's servers can be spotty but it's usually not that bad.

Here is some real news instead of FUD. You can still run desktop apps using Windows 8. I am running everything just fine with Windows 8 and Microsoft still has to keep the desktop around because there are a ton of apps and games that are not WinRT compatible and will not be compatible. WinRT is very limited compared to Win32.

Valve is overreacting, like you do with most of your posts. It's a knee jerk reaction because microsoft now has a store. Big whoppie do, Apple has had a store for a long time and yet valve says nothing.

Ubuntu is great, but very few people are going to run it or care about valve except for Linux folks who already hate Microsoft to begin with. Nothing new there.

I don't care about valve at all, but the drama on here is delicious. Most people will use Steam on windows and everything will continue being the same. How many people abandoned the PS3 when valve said that the PS3 was horrible and then started making games on it. Valve is overreacting and nobody cares about what they threaten.

Valve is like that small dog that barks and is more annoying than anything, at the end of the day if you just ignore them and use Steam you hope that they go away, but they never do.

[PGHammer]

Here is some real news instead of FUD. You can still run desktop apps using Windows 8. I am running everything just fine with Windows 8 and Microsoft still has to keep the desktop around because there are a ton of apps and games that are not WinRT compatible and will not be compatible. WinRT is very limited compared to Win32.

Valve is overreacting, like you do with most of your posts. It's a knee jerk reaction because microsoft now has a store. Big whoppie do, Apple has had a store for a long time and yet valve says nothing.

Ubuntu is great, but very few people are going to run it or care about valve except for Linux folks who already hate Microsoft to begin with. Nothing new there.

I don't care about valve at all, but the drama on here is delicious. Most people will use Steam on windows and everything will continue being the same. How many people abandoned the PS3 when valve said that the PS3 was horrible and then started making games on it. Valve is overreacting and nobody cares about what they threaten.

Valve is like that small dog that barks and is more annoying than anything, at the end of the day if you just ignore them and use Steam you hope that they go away, but they never do.

I run Steam on my perfectly-legal-as-the-eagle Windows 8 Pro x64 with Media Center - in fact, I have never had a Steam issue running Windows 8 bare-metal. (No issues with software downloaded via Steam, either - including DOTA 2; that means that Source - Valve's engine cash cow - ALSO has no Windows 8 issues.) Sounds like someone - a lot of someones - at Valve are full of hot air.

[Yogurtmaster]

I run Steam on my perfectly-legal-as-the-eagle Windows 8 Pro x64 with Media Center - in fact, I have never had a Steam issue running Windows 8 bare-metal. (No issues with software downloaded via Steam, either - including DOTA 2; that means that Source - Valve's engine cash cow - ALSO has no Windows 8 issues.) Sounds like someone - a lot of someones - at Valve are full of hot air.

I agree. The fear of Windows 8 is irrational, no doubt about that at all.

[BajiRav]

Let's see here:

1. Steam on Linux will pave the roads to easily adoptable Linux gaming.

2. Microsoft is moving in an Apple-like direction of All-In-One machines that "Just work," with a closed, controlled software ecosystem.

Why is this article so controversial? Do I smell fanboys?

The controversial part is in your second bullet. That is just plain bull**** as of now.

[Athernar]

Oh it's under NDA? I was made to believe that Valve are more open than Microsoft's Windows Store where all guidelines and cuts are known even before a developer pays anything to Microsoft?

How can they let a developer know the cut before it's negotiated? Durr. :rolleyes: