Windows 8 sales dissapointing

[Shane Nokes]

Im shocked too. he was the biggest fan boy of windows phone, and windows metro, now he seems to hate it ha.

weird how that flopped on him. I actually quit listening to the podcasts for a while because i got sick of the fanboyism bs, now he seems back.

Why be shocked? He does this on a regular basis. He gets denied access to something he wants, and then he flips out on MS. This is a day that ends in y for PT.

[Growled Member]

What if I want both? I love having my desktop. I also love having an attractive Start screen to look at, and interactive Metro apps to use.

I have both with Start8. Microsoft could have done even better if they had tried.

Plus, Microsoft is making a clean - clean - break from their old image. They spent the past two year re-inventing themselves, Windows 8 is setting the base of future Windows releases, much like Windows 95 did.

Yeah, I know. I hope other people catch the fever like they did with Windows 95, but somehow I'm doubting it.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

You can close running apps by tap-holding. obvious, right? :p

nope that only removes it from the recent apps list, it doesn't actually close it

[Dot Matrix]

I have both with Start8. Microsoft could have done even better if they had tried.

So, in order to get to Metro Start, I'd have to go through another Start Menu? Yeah, that's a disaster in the waiting. I shouldn't have to click Start > Start > app.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

So, in order to get to Metro Start, I'd have to go through another Start Menu? Yeah, that's a disaster in the waiting.

wrong, there are plenty of configurable options with Start8 now

you can have both the button work and the hot corner work both taking you to their respectable places

you can also set the windows key on the keyboard take you to the start menu with a single press and start screen with a longer press

you can also with your keyboard set the left windows key to the start menu and the right windows key to the start screen

there are many other options as well

[DavidM]

So, in order to get to Metro Start, I'd have to go through another Start Menu? Yeah, that's a disaster in the waiting. I shouldn't have to click Start > Start > app.

When I used Start8, I never had it boot directly to the desktop. I just wanted a start menu once I got there, all that flipping back and forth was just silly. Once I was on the desktop, I was doing obviously doing something that couldn't/wouldn't or wasn't available to use in Metro, so why have to constantly flip back and forth.

I understand their reason for doing what they did, I just think they did it really stupidly. Let people use their desktops they way they WANT to, I realize having a unified ui between phone/tablet/pc is what they want, but ffs, let them/us warm up to the idea first. I'm now using W8 without Start8 at all to really try and give it a honest shot, so far it's not bad, but I hate the metro to desktop to metro to desktop to metro, every time I want to open a new program. I use foobar, firefox, thunderbird and play games on my desktop, nothing I need or want metro involved in, BUT when there is a good browser that will let me use plugins, and check my mail & play music they way I want to, then I might be interested in metro, until then why make me flip back and forth?

[Elliott]

How is switching apps in iOS any more obvious than Windows 8? :/ Many iPad owners (I know) don't even know how to switch between apps, they just drop back to home screen and go from there.

None of the following operations are "obvious" in iOS compared to Windows 8

- Switch apps

- Close running apps

- Uninstall apps

- Re-arrange apps

- Orientation lock (AFAIK is impossible in default iOS config)

You're right, and those are all examples of poor design in iOS, though the push and hold mechanic is starting to become an accepted standard in touch UIs for editing.

I said that the double tap of the home button to reveal the app switcher is an example of bad UX, and it's something I don't like in iOS. The swipe from the right to reveal the charms bar in Windows 8 is the same way. Other than the intro that teaches the basics of Windows 8, there's no cue to even hint that the charms bar is there. For somebody that's thrown in to Windows 8 (as many corporate users and potential buyers using demo units may be), there's nothing to really hint them towards those basics.

FYI, orientation lock is possible in iOS. It's in the poorly designed app switcher. :p

[+LogicalApex MVC]

So, in order to get to Metro Start, I'd have to go through another Start Menu? Yeah, that's a disaster in the waiting. I shouldn't have to click Start > Start > app.

Not accurate. Via Start8 you can actually launch any Metro app from the "Start Menu" just like any other app. So you would just go Start -> Store (for instance) and not Start -> Start- >App. The only time you would go to the "Start Screen" is if you wanted to see it and you have a variety of option to configure how that happens.

The reality is, Microsoft could have done a similar thing themselves with a lot better integration, but like I said earlier, this is more about the Windows Store than about our actual use of the OS.

The Start Screen is pushed heavily to ensure we are heavily encouraged to use the new Store to increase their revenue and for developers to create Store apps to help them push back against iOS and Android. What remains to be seen is if they overreached this time.

This is nothing new... This is classic Microsoft. They arrive late to the party and get aggressive in trying to push back and use their customers as pawns. But I'll stop adding reality here again. As it is clear we only discuss the fanboy passion points and don't really have honest discussion nor do we actually critique Microsoft here.

[MorganX]

The Start Screen is pushed heavily to ensure we are heavily encouraged to use the new Store to increase their revenue and for developers to create Store apps to help them push back against iOS and Android. What remains to be seen is if they overreached this time.

Well that ain't working cuz despite how many apps are in the store, there's not a whole lot worth having. The Xbox Music app won't recognized music added to the library if it's on removable storage (so copy gigs of music to your limited local Surface storage) duuuh.

Because of the limited marketshare small devs are wary of developing for the platform and MS isn't subsidizing anyone.

I really believe MS is too bloated and lost touch with what consumers want from a software perspective. The OS and hardware are excellent, but I'm not seeing things move fast enough with regards to apps. And it's just absurd that the Xbox Music and Video apps don't directly support removable locations added to the library. The OS does, Windows Media Player does? I mean, who's running those dev teams.

I'm excited about the 8 platform but something just isn't right at Microsoft anymore, it's as #@#% up as Windows 8's search. Yeah it works, but you make me not even want to bother.

[Growled Member]

I understand their reason for doing what they did, I just think they did it really stupidly. Let people use their desktops they way they WANT to, I realize having a unified ui between phone/tablet/pc is what they want, but ffs, let them/us warm up to the idea first. I'm now using W8 without Start8 at all to really try and give it a honest shot, so far it's not bad, but I hate the metro to desktop to metro to desktop to metro, every time I want to open a new program. I use foobar, firefox, thunderbird and play games on my desktop, nothing I need or want metro involved in, BUT when there is a good browser that will let me use plugins, and check my mail & play music they way I want to, then I might be interested in metro, until then why make me flip back and forth?

That's the way I feel. Metro apps are terrible. Since I end up using the desktop mostly, I have no desire to switch back and forth. Someone needs to step up their game and make decent Metro apps. I have nothing the start screen itself, and I want to use it. However the functionally is not there yet.

[DavidM]

That's the way I feel. Metro apps are terrible. Since I end up using the desktop mostly, I have no desire to switch back and forth. Someone needs to step up their game and make decent Metro apps. I have nothing the start screen itself, and I want to use it. However the functionally is not there yet.

I gave up on Windows 8 on my desktop, just too much back and forth as I noted earlier, but still using it on my laptop without Start8. I usually just surf and listen to music, maybe a game of plants vs zombies or a nice spider solitaire game I found in the store. I hope they improve the music app, but until then I can deal with IE10 and Foobar.

I hope Foobar and Firefox come out with metro apps with the same functionality.... but that's probably hoping for too much.

[PGHammer]

Right, where they're still trying to push Windows 7.

Because all too many corporate clients are running (still) XP, if not 2000 Professional. (No - I'm not kidding.)

They can push 7 because, for the most part, the hardware requirements are barely over XP on the client side (pretty much if you have AMD Athlon II or Intel Core 2 or equivalent desktops, you're set) and there's little to no retraining involved migrating from XP or 2000 Professional. (The issue with Windows 8 on the corporate side are the retraining costs, not the hardware costs.) Once Windows 7 is in place, upgrading to Windows 8 (especially with Software Assurance) becomes a matter of training costs (which, once the economy imprtoves, won't be as big an issue as it is now). It is - like it or not - STILL the economy, folks.)

The lack of Windows 8 uptake is also largely economics-driven - new versions of Windows (back to, and including, XP) are primarily sold with new PCs - sales of Windows upgrades are small beer typically. Windows 8, however, has three major issues to contend with:

1. Hardware requirements, for the most part, are unchanged compared to Windows 7. (Only Hyper-V absolutely requires the latest of CPUs from Intel or AMD; however, that particular feature is for outliers, not the average user.)

2. Lack of compelling software to drive operating system upgrades. There has not been a compelling application OR game to drive sales of ANY Windows OS since the death of Windows 9x. Even the latest version of the productivity suite of choice - Office 2013 - is, at best, an XP/Vista killer (it still runs on Windows 7, in addition to Windows 8). It's not a bad productivity suite by any means - if it were, I'd neither use OR recommend it. However, a driver to upgrade to Windows 8 it's not.

3. OS upgrades are a luxury, not a necessity (for most users). For the most part, what users need from an operating system will only change if/when the hardware they are using changes. With hardware upgrades ALSO a luxury due to a poor economy, OS upgrades also got pushed back.

For the most part, the changes in Windows 8 are basically just one more excuse for those that likely would not have upgraded in any case to NOT upgrade. (That's right, haters - I'm saying that all of you that are mad about the chnages in Windows 8 compared to Windows 7 wouldn't have upgraded had things remained as they were regardless.)

[threetonesun]

Because all too many corporate clients are running (still) XP, if not 2000 Professional. (No - I'm not kidding.)

They never tried to sell ME or Vista to businesses either, Microsoft has always planned on skipping generations when targeting the business market. They could do whatever they wanted with 8, and know it wasn't going to impact the businesses sales.

Windows 9 will, if this metro thing doesn't shake out, have a more businesses oriented interface, or a businesses edition.

[OilersFan]

I really hope Windows 9 has a more modular design so I customize it for the device I want to use it on.

[Shasoosh]

They tried to create something new. IMO metro is not for pcs at all. I'm not sure about mobiles too. When I take a glance on my phone i want those tiny bits of information and that's it. I don't want to wait for the tiles to change so I can see who mentioned me on twitter etc'.

[jesseinsf]

Not everyone was born in this generation dude. You can't expect a 70 year old lady or man to understand something as technologically challenging as Windows 8.

You can't expect most 70 year olds to understand any PC.

[jesseinsf]

You know not everyone have time to learn something new and needlessly. Most people just want things to work.

For example when you get in a brand new car, you should just be able to oeprate it's equipment but know that because it is a new car, things will be in different places but functions will be excatly the same. Besides, it should take no longer than 5 minutes or less to get to know the new car. Just like it should be like with computers. Computers has lost too much GUI standards that many are becoming confused of which OS is which and how to use it, especially a brand new OS.

Windows 8 has a new GUI and we all don't have the luxury of time to get to know where things are and how to nagivate them.

Everyone has time, they just don't want to make the time.

[jesseinsf]

For you, yes, great stuff, I'm happy for ya. :)

I'm happy for you noticing that others are enjoying Windows 8. BTW did you know you can give a name to each column in the Start screen? Something you could never do in the Start menu. BTW have you tried "right clicking" the bottom left corner and see what you get?

[FaeGiN]

Actually all change is progress, just not necessarily in the direction you want. :p

Actually, wrong. Some change is REGRESS.

:p

[Shane Nokes]

Actually, wrong. Some change is REGRESS.

:p

I already went over this post at another point in the thread with someone else. Read that post and you will understand my point. ;)

[FaeGiN]

Microsoft Still in Denial

http://channel9.msdn...dc6a10b014cbe1e

..." indeed. Instead of fixing, they are playing the blame game. Countless of knowledgeable people (Windows experts and developers, not the usual anti-MS brigade) hammered them in the past twelve months about the very obvious issues with Windows 8, yet Redmond acted as if the whole town went through a self-hypnosis course. "La la, can't hear you!".

If the shock over the Windows 8 sales is indeed real and unexpected at MS HQ, then I am truly shocked." - wastingtimew?ithforums

..." It's a floor wax. No, it's a dessert topping. Microsoft's new whatever-the-F-it-is operating system is a confusing, Frankenstein's monster mix of old and new that hides a great desktop upgrade under a crazy Metro front-end. It's touch-first, as Microsoft says, but really it's touch whether you want it or not (or have it or not), and the firm's inability to give its own customers the choice to pick which UI they want is what really makes Windows 8 confounding to users. " - Paul Thurrott

..."

Seems to me like Thurrott is talking a bit of sense for once :woot: . Well maybe that's a bit harsh but I find his opinion in that article pretty much hits it on the head for me. So many of the problems with win8 are obvious. Yes I have it installed, well as dual boot and I can tell you I am on Windows 7 right now :)

It became too irritating, NOT trying to find how to do things but actually having to do them the win 8 way! I've had it installed since the first Releases and I just cannot like it. I've been using PC's, windows mostly for decades and this is the strangest OS I've seen from MS.

I don't think people will get used to this one and slowly accept it, then maybe go on to praise it. I can't see it as there are obvious problems with it, it isn't even like a Desktop PC OS.

I already went over this post at another point in the thread with someone else. Read that post and you will understand my point. ;)

Hehe OK I think I was too late to that party. :)

[scaramonga]

Seems to me like Thurrott is talking a bit of sense for once :woot: . Well maybe that's a bit harsh but I find his opinion in that article pretty much hits it on the head for me. So many of the problems with win8 are obvious. Yes I have it installed, well as dual boot and I can tell you I am on Windows 7 right now :)

It became too irritating, NOT trying to find how to do things but actually having to do them the win 8 way! I've had it installed since the first Releases and I just cannot like it. I've been using PC's, windows mostly for decades and this is the strangest OS I've seen from MS.

I don't think people will get used to this one and slowly accept it, then maybe go on to praise it. I can't see it as there are obvious problems with it, it isn't even like a Desktop PC OS.

Yup. Frankenstein would have been so proud :)

[NightScreams]

I don't think people will get used to this one and slowly accept it, then maybe go on to praise it.

wow, Deja Vu just hit me. Exact words I heard in the early nineties

[xWhiplash]

wow, Deja Vu just hit me. Exact words I heard in the early nineties

Except that was progress. Working on photoshop, I activate these damn invisible menus and it is really annoying. I know several people that still take 30 seconds to shut down because they still look for it in the Start Screen. After several seconds of searching, they say "Oh yeah I forgot, at work it is Start - Shut Down but now it is not when I get home".

They made a very big mistake moving the most critical things around for no reason. There is no reason why Shut Down could not be added to the start screen. Put it at the top right next to your name.

I do not see why people are saying the Start Menu HAD to be removed, yet we have MANY MANY applications like Start 8. Why couldn't Microsoft do the same thing? I bet you they will have to in Windows 9, 10, 11, whatever in order to get businesses to upgrade.

[Dot Matrix]

Except that was progress. Working on photoshop, I activate these damn invisible menus and it is really annoying. I know several people that still take 30 seconds to shut down because they still look for it in the Start Screen. After several seconds of searching, they say "Oh yeah I forgot, at work it is Start - Shut Down but now it is not when I get home".

They made a very big mistake moving the most critical things around for no reason. There is no reason why Shut Down could not be added to the start screen. Put it at the top right next to your name.

I do not see why people are saying the Start Menu HAD to be removed, yet we have MANY MANY applications like Start 8. Why couldn't Microsoft do the same thing? I bet you they will have to in Windows 9, 10, 11, whatever in order to get businesses to upgrade.

They got moved, because that's just how it works. That's how things evolve. Also, that Start Menu was replaced because it was time for something better. The Start Screen is an introduction to an up and coming, dynamic world of computing. We have different PC form factors that are calling for a new OS, but at the same time, it's completely asinine to divide up our operating systems into a billion different properties. It's a support nightmare. Plus, it's been said there was technicalities supporting the old menu.

One thing never mentioned by detractors, is that ALL the Start Screen "replacements" are new code, and almost all don't support the live tiles Microsoft is trying to use. The old menu died because it needed updating, and didn't support Microsoft goals. They had to re-do the menu regardless if you think it needs saved or not. You certainly can't use it on tablets, or other touch hardware. You're never going to use the Kinect with it, and it was a pain in the ass to use on my HTPC, as I could never see the damn thing without increasing the DPI. The Start Screen changes all that. It's device neutral, finally allowing users to use their PCs without being hindered by archaic paradigms that should have died out years ago. There is nothing "better" about the menu, people are clinging to it because it's familiar. Give that time, and the feared transition to the Start Screen will diminish.

It's not coming back unless it can be used in a neutral way, across all devices, which it can not.