Restore Start menu but limit it to Pro edition

[Stoffel]

Yeah, it's even worse on non-techy people that barely know how to use the regular Start Menu. Everything is gone for them... Nice shooting yourself in the foot there.

People managed to learn how to use an iPhone/iPad, or an Android Phone.

How hard can it be to adjust to Win8.

You people make it sound like Win8 is completely different and impossible to get used to.

I feel sorry for all you self proclaimed IT specialists, if you can't even figure out how a new slightly different version of Windows works

Sad, really sad, that's all I have to say to that

[seta-san]

Then where are all the breakaway apps for Windows 7? (Hint: There are none)

Developers have largely left Windows for Android and iOS. Microsoft had to do something to get them back, and the desktop wasn't doing it.

every desktop app every. including every major game better than angry birds.

the real question is. if windows 8 had zero backward compatibility with desktop apps would anyone use it? I think not. Windows 8 metro, something no one wanted and no one asked for, is riding on the coat tails of Microsoft's huge and awesome desktop library. Without that desktop library no one would have even had bothered. It can't stand on it's own.

[Dot Matrix]

the worst part of all this is that few people haven't realized that the start screen isn't a replacement for the start menu... It's a replacement for the desktop itself.

Now you see why I argue for it, and why bringing back the Start Menu will never happen.

every desktop app every. including every major game better than angry birds.

the real question is. if windows 8 had zero backward compatibility with desktop apps would anyone use it? I think not. Windows 8 metro, something no one wanted and no one asked for, is riding on the coat tails of Microsoft's huge and awesome desktop library. Without that desktop library no one would have even had bothered. It can't stand on it's own.

Every desktop app? Really? Most desktop apps are years old! They don't feature any new APIs, don't integrate into the OS, and quite a few have even been abandoned by their developers. That's a helluva UX right there. That just screams Windows is number one, and should remain unchanged... Not. Not even top first party developers can be bothered to build proper desktop apps that conform to Windows 7 standards. Firefox, Chrome all lack OS unity, Many of the popular music apps still feature horrendous drop downs that were abandoned by Microsoft years ago, etc.

I want a compelling desktop app that features new APIs, integrates seamlessly into the OS, and isn't developed by Microsoft or its subsidiaries. Can you name any, because I can't. And that's not a good sign, and proves without a doubt Windows is being largely abandoned.

[seta-san]

People managed to learn how to use an iPhone/iPad, or an Android Phone.

How hard can it be to adjust to Win8.

You people make it sound like Win8 is completely different and impossible to get used to.

I feel sorry for all you self proclaimed IT specialists, if you can't even figure out how a new slightly different version of Windows works

Sad, really sad, that's all I have to say to that

the problem is that windows 8 is two competing and yet linked experiences. The desktop and metro. Both have different UI rules. half the control panels seem to be in the normal control panel and the rest are in the metro one. It's a completely bi-polar experience. It doesn't know if it wants to be a desktop or a tablet so it tries to be both at the same time and fails on both counts.

Now you see why I argue for it, and why bringing back the Start Menu will never happen.

so you want to get rid of the desktop and it's decades of powerful apps behind it. even if Microsoft were inclined to do such a thing it's corporate customers would hang Ballmer by his balls.

[Dashel]

Riddle me this then Stoffel, why do many IT pros I've spoken with see more traction with RT than Win8 on the Desktop? Being so dismissive of the people who are in the trenches supporting said product is what is sad, as there is a pretty big jump between knowing how and enjoying how.

Many have adjusted fine, they just hope the drool at the corners of its mouth is from teething and not retardation.

Dot is so silly. He continues to acknowledge that Metro is a new and competing environment to the Desktop, yet anytime comparisons crop up, its suddenly just a Start Menu.

[Stoffel]

the problem is that windows 8 is two competing and yet linked experiences. The desktop and metro. Both have different UI rules. half the control panels seem to be in the normal control panel and the rest are in the metro one. It's a completely bi-polar experience. It doesn't know if it wants to be a desktop or a tablet so it tries to be both at the same time and fails on both counts.

Yeah yeah, we've heard that enough times now.

Win8 is not perfect, but honestly, the only people whining about it are (self proclaimed) IT professionals.

If you explain how Win 8 works to normal people, and you don't include your own bias when talking about it, most of them get it and like it straight away.

Worst case they are indifferent and just adjust to it.

Riddle me this then Stoffel, why do many IT pros I've spoken with see more traction with RT than Win8 on the Desktop? Being so dismissive to the people who are in the trenches supporting said product is what is sad as there is a pretty big jump between knowing how and enjoying how.

I wish I could answer your question, but I have no clue what you are asking me

[+Warwagon MVC]

Now you see why I argue for it, and why bringing back the Start Menu will never happen.

So you think the desktop that we have left should go away for a 100% full screen metro experience?

[xWhiplash]

Then where are all the breakaway apps for Windows 7? (Hint: There are none)

Developers have largely left Windows for Android and iOS. Microsoft had to do something to get them back, and the desktop wasn't doing it. Users were pushing for devices that the desktop doesn't work with.

And what are these amazing applications we are missing so much? Games? There are far better games on Windows than Angry Birds....which is also on the computer. Productivity software? Like what? What does Android and iOS have that comes close to Photoshop, 3DS Max, Blender, Logic Studio, Sony Acid, Microsoft Office, ...?

[Dot Matrix]

So you think the desktop that we have left should go away for a 100% metro experience?

It will get there. Once hardware evolves beyond the mouse. There are better, more natural ways to interact with computers than pointing and clicking, and I think that is what Microsoft is driving towards.

[+Warwagon MVC]

It will get there. Once hardware evolves beyond the mouse. There are better, more natural ways to interact with computers than pointing and clicking, and I think that is what Microsoft is driving towards.

Whats wrong with a mouse on a desktop? How else would be do it? Spend 12 hours a day with hour arms extended touching our screens? Or spend 12 hours a day waving our hands in front of it?

[seta-san]

It will get there. Once hardware evolves beyond the mouse. There are better, more natural ways to interact with computers than pointing and clicking, and I think that is what Microsoft is driving towards.

no one likes a smudgy screen. Touch has always been a lack luster technology and I couldn't imagine having to type a term paper in a touch environment and having to edit it and set margins and spacing, etc. I hope your talking about Kinect. even so you're largely reducing a computer to a toy.

I just get the feeling that all you do with your computer already comes with the default metro apps. It sound like you use your computer like my 63 year old aunt who just want to know the weather and get her emails

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

may as well read as "you can left click for free, but to right click, you gotta have pro"....makes about as much sense too..... :/

[+Warwagon MVC]

may as well read as "you can left click for free, but to right click, you gotta have pro"....makes about as much sense too..... :/

Na Dot wants to get rid of the right click all together!

[Stoffel]

Whats wrong with a mouse on a desktop? How else would be do it? Spend 12 hours a day with hour arms extended touching our screens? Or spend 12 hours a day waving our hands in front of it?

no one likes a smudgy screen. Touch has always been a lack luster technology and I couldn't imagine having to type a term paper in a touch environment and having to edit it and set margins and spacing, etc. I hope your talking about Kinect. even so you're largely reducing a computer to a toy.

I just get the feeling that all you do with your computer already comes with the default metro apps. It sound like you use your computer like my 63 year old aunt who just want to know the weather and get her emails

Don't know why, but it seems like you guys can only think in black and white.

It's all touch or all KB/mouse with you guys, how about we use them together each for what is most convenient?

[seta-san]

why is it that every time people talk about natural interactions with computers I imagin having to do the same thing a dozen times to get it to work right. I have a touch phone and I have to press a half dozen times to get it to register the right key press.. and yet it's calibrated. Every time I've used speech to text I've had to repeat myself time after time for the same thing I could have done in less than a second with a keyboard. every time I use the wii i'm wailing my arms around hoping it gets the right command.. and yes, I'm doing the same thing with the Kinect except it usually become full body wailing around. "natural" environments have always SUCKED.

Don't know why, but it seems like you guys can only think in black and white.

It's all touch or all KB/mouse with you guys, how about we use them together each for what is most convenient?

because one makes the other unnecessary. it would be like having a mouse and a trackball at the same time. sure you could do it... but why?

[+Warwagon MVC]

Don't know why, but it seems like you guys can only think in black and white.

It's all touch or all KB/mouse with you guys, how about we use them together each for what is most convenient?

You forgot to quote dot Matrix

[SkyDX]

Oh dear... okay since I get tired of these threads myself I will quickly sum-up my personal opinion again towards that matter... >.<

First I'm not anti-progress and I don't really need the Start Menu back, what I want however is just a simple non-fullscreen app-search much like OSX has, if Microsoft would just do this I would be alot happier already and I can live with not having the rest of the Start Menu ever again :/ Next, I understand it on tablets and phones but why do things on monitors need to be forced fullscreen? o.o Seriously if I'm anti something then it's anti-fullscreen, why can't we just _optionally_ make things not fullscreen? And the last thing, I'm not saying that Aero Glass was the prettiest thing ever but if you already have to make everything revolve around solid colors... Metro has so many possibilities as a design-language so why sticking to something bland? o.o Especially since many people already proved how good it can look >.<

And that's all from me and again as always just my personal opinion^^

Oh and since I can still edit my post, a little add-on^^ What's with Microsofts seemingly Highlander approach "There can only be one!"? >.< A unified UI across all devices sounds good in theory but practically even if the Desktop truly goes away, we shouldn't stick to one UI and rather adapt the UI to the hardware where it makes sense, Google realized that with Android's Tablet and Phone mode and Apple seems to understand that aswell as they only move parts from iOS to OSX that make sense! And a similar approach was always seen in progress by humanity, cars didn't make bikes obsolete, TVs didn't make radios obsolete, we still use knife, spoon, forks and chopsticks to consume food based on what and where we eat and I could make many more example but I'm sure everyone gets my point :/ No there cannot be only one, there should be many and that's good because flexibility and options are never bad in my opinion^^

[Dot Matrix]

Whats wrong with a mouse on a desktop? How else would be do it? Spend 12 hours a day with hour arms extended touching our screens? Or spend 12 hours a day waving our hands in front of it?

Listen, quit putting word in my mouth. The keyboard will always remain. But the computer is evolving beyond point and click. In the grand scheme of things, pointing and clicking is quite a goofy input method, when there are better suited alternatives. My finger and hands can click buttons, swipe sides, and clear away apps, my pen can draw, and my keyboard can type. I don't need a mouse for anything anymore, really.

[seta-san]

Listen, quit putting word in my mouth. The keyboard will always remain. But the computer is evolving beyond point and click. In the grand scheme of things, pointing and clicking is quite a goofy input method, when there are better alternatives. My finger can click buttons and swipe, my pen can draw, and my keyboard can type. I don't need a mouse for anything anymore, really.

so we're going to switch out the keyboard and mouse for

keyboard, finger, and pen smudging up your screen.

you can keep it.

[xWhiplash]

Touch is not a replacement for the mouse. Perfect example would be playing video games (FPS). What about high precision mouse movements?

[Dot Matrix]

Touch is not a replacement for the mouse. Perfect example would be playing video games (FPS). What about high precision mouse movements?

Kinect for PC? It won't be long before FPS games start utilizing that.

[xWhiplash]

Kinect for PC? It won't be long before FPS games start utilizing that.

Really? So you expect people to touch their monitor AND use WASD (or whatever they have set) on their keyboard? Your hand could block your view and get you killed.

[Dot Matrix]

Really? So you expect people to touch their monitor AND use WASD (or whatever they have set) on their keyboard? Your hand could block your view and get you killed.

You really don't think much outside the box, do you? I don't need a keyboard to play FPS games on my Xbox with Kinect, so why would I need one here? The Kinect can already sense hand motions, and positions.

I really hope you're still alive 20, 30, 40 years from now, because I really want to see how you react to technology then after it's had time to develop. You can keep claiming the mouse is uber "1337", but in the grand scheme of things, it's honestly a goofy contraption built for a bygone era.

[seta-san]

You really don't think much outside the box, do you? I don't need a keyboard to play FPS games on my Xbox with Kinect, so why would I need one here? The Kinect can already sense hand motions, and positions.

I really hope you're still alive 20, 30, 40 years from now, because I really want to see how you react to technology then after it's had time to develop. You can keep claiming the mouse is uber "1337", but in the grand scheme of things, it's honestly a goofy contraption built for a bygone era.

we're still in that era and anyone who has any serious business to do with a computer would use nothing less than a keyboard and mouse.

[Dot Matrix]

we're still in that era and anyone who has any serious business to do with a computer would use nothing less than a keyboard and mouse.

We're transitioning out of that era.