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Restore Start menu but limit it to Pro edition

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c.grz    391

Actually seeing how the "New" Modern UI in Windows 8 is hiding everything from you throwing you into a full screen app without any indication about what to do next. I would personally call that an overly complex UI, at least on the desktop.

For example

Control Panel

Windows 7 : Start / Control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom left to make a hidden square appear, right click it and choose control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom / top right to bring up a hidden charms bar / click select settings / click control panel.

Windows 8: Take your hand off the mouse and put it on the keyboard / press Windows key + C/ put your hand back on the mouse and click settings / then click control panel.

Windows 8: Press the windows key on the keyboard. Take your hand off the mouse and type control panel, then put your hand back on the mouse and click control panel.

Actually:

Windows 7: Put your mouse over the "Orb" and click to make the start menu appear, click control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom left to make menu appear, right click it and click control panel

...

Windows 7 & Windows 8: Press the windows key on the keyboard. Take your hand off the mouse and type control panel, then put your hand back on the mouse and click control panel.

It's not easier to do that in Windows 7 other than there not being an "Orb", the number of steps and clicks are equal. And it only takes you a few minutes to know where the menu is in the lower left hand corner. So there's a slight "learning curve".

Other than that, it sounds about the same to me.

No surprise there, kids aren't smart, have little organizational skill, and their hand-eye coordination hasn't been developed yet (just like a certain poster here). When they grow up and have to do stuff, that story will change. The problem isn't touch as Morgan notes, but its implementation. They aren't replacements. That isn't an opinion, its fact.

If you don't see how it is more complex (and requires more mental effort) for average users to juggle two different and competing UIs (since you guys keep saying you agree that Metro is a competitor with the Desktop and does introduce a radical new UI) then you will never get it since you aren't bound by reality. Which is fine as long as you don't end up in any IT position of merit, or worse, become another brain dead Mac/Google loving developer.

So a child that isn't smart; can understand and use the start menu but an adult with far more inteligence has trouble "juggling two different and competing UIs"? Is that about right?

And that last line you quoted was meant as a joke, we all know 4 year olds can't navigate the start menu; it's too complex for them!

And sorry to burst your bubble; but I am in an IT position of merit. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to force our users to us Windows 8; not yet anyways. I'm waiting for SP1.

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threetonesun    1,204

Actually seeing how the "New" Modern UI in Windows 8 is hiding everything from you throwing you into a full screen app without any indication about what to do next. I would personally call that an overly complex UI, at least on the desktop.

For example

Accessing the Control Panel

Windows 7 : Start / Control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom left to make a hidden square appear, right click it and choose control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom / top right to bring up a hidden charms bar / click select settings / click control panel.

Windows 8: On they keyboard with the left hand press press Windows key + C/ then with the mouse click settings on the charms bar / then click control panel.

Windows 8: Press the windows key on the keyboard. Take your hand off the mouse and type control panel, then put your hand back on the mouse and click control panel.

If someone who is looking for it can't find it, then it's a problem. However, your example here really doesn't clarify if that's an issue or not. What you fail to mention is that Windows also feeds people into the control panel menus if they need to get to them without ever "opening" the control panel (see, Windows update / security for an example).

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TAZMINATOR    12,416

Actually seeing how the "New" Modern UI in Windows 8 is hiding everything from you throwing you into a full screen app without any indication about what to do next. I would personally call that an overly complex UI, at least on the desktop.

For example

Accessing the Control Panel

Windows 7 : Start / Control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom left to make a hidden square appear, right click it and choose control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom / top right to bring up a hidden charms bar / click select settings / click control panel.

Windows 8: On they keyboard with the left hand press press Windows key + C/ then with the mouse click settings on the charms bar / then click control panel.

Windows 8: Press the windows key on the keyboard. Take your hand off the mouse and type control panel, then put your hand back on the mouse and click control panel.

Those are okay but you are slow... but my way is better than that since I am a system admin. I have the quick way to access to it.

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Dot Matrix    7,438

Actually seeing how the "New" Modern UI in Windows 8 is hiding everything from you throwing you into a full screen app without any indication about what to do next. I would personally call that an overly complex UI, at least on the desktop.

For example

Accessing the Control Panel

Windows 7 : Start / Control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom left to make a hidden square appear, right click it and choose control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom / top right to bring up a hidden charms bar / click select settings / click control panel.

Windows 8: On they keyboard with the left hand press press Windows key + C/ then with the mouse click settings on the charms bar / then click control panel.

Windows 8: Press the windows key on the keyboard. Take your hand off the mouse and type control panel, then put your hand back on the mouse and click control panel.

This:

Actually:

Windows 7: Put your mouse over the "Orb" and click to make the start menu appear, click control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom left to make menu appear, right click it and click control panel

...

Windows 7 & Windows 8: Press the windows key on the keyboard. Take your hand off the mouse and type control panel, then put your hand back on the mouse and click control panel.

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MorganX    1,044

While I believe it is a step backwards to require keyboard shortcuts to obtain efficiencies lost when moving from Win 7 to Win 8, anyone spending much time in control panel should be able, almost as a reflex, to Win+R and type control. That's actually faster than clicking your way to it in Win 8 or Win 7. Though for a click solution I'd have to say right click lower left corner of Win 8 and select control panel is faster and requires less precision.

Slam it in the lower left corner and right click.

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MorganX    1,044

If someone who is looking for it can't find it, then it's a problem. However, your example here really doesn't clarify if that's an issue or not. What you fail to mention is that Windows also feeds people into the control panel menus if they need to get to them without ever "opening" the control panel (see, Windows update / security for an example).

I actually get to Update through properties on Computer icon on desktop or Computer on Start Menu (Start8 now) and Security through Action Center. Of course those are all a part of the flexibility and accessibility afforded through the desktop environment.

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Active.    1,700
Slam it in the lower left corner and right click.

Of course you can't hold down the mouse button and then release it on the target element as you were able to do with the Start menu. And this is actually something that Start8 fails at, too.

It's a super-fast way to select elements, especially when the motion is already in muscle memory.

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Noir Angel    4,273

The shut down function isn't hidden away on Windows 7, you can just click it. That's one huge plus for me (I'm aware it can be done with keyboard shortcuts but for the average idiot the Windows 7 system is far more simple).

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threetonesun    1,204

I actually get to Update through properties on Computer icon on desktop or Computer on Start Menu (Start8 now) and Security through Action Center. Of course those are all a part of the flexibility and accessibility afforded through the desktop environment.

The point is all of the important functions of the control panel can be accessed without ever opening the control panel. This is also true if you're only on the W8 / Metro / whatever side of things, add / remove and update are all quite simple.

The shut down function isn't hidden away on Windows 7, you can just click it. That's one huge plus for me (I'm aware it can be done with keyboard shortcuts but for the average idiot the Windows 7 system is far more simple).

It can also be done by the much more accessible button on your computer.

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MorganX    1,044

W8 / Metro / whatever side of things, add / remove and update are all quite simple.

W8 Desktop, yes. W8 Metro, not so much. Easy enough, but clumsy and more work. Anything requiring Modern UI search is to be avoided IMO. The epitome of clumsiness, inefficiency, bad design, wasted time, go on, and on.

I'm satisfied with W8. The Desktop Environment is a significant improvement/optimization over Win7 and I've just learned to avoid Modern UI. I don't use it much, there's not really much to use it for. I mostly avoid it though there are some useful apps. Start8 boots me to the desktop and returns an effective, usable search through the Start Menu.

I actually did a refresh when I got a new SSD to activate properly, and had to reinstall programs. Man, it's incredibly shocking to boot to the Start Page after using Win8 booting to the desktop. I was like, wtf, what a waste of time. You can't do anything with this except go to the Desktop. First thing I did was reinstall Start8 and boot to desktop. The Start Page isn't that bad for what it is, but it really was just a nuisance, a huge obstacle to getting work done.

I think it will always be something we just put up with or accept on the Desktop. At least until some major changes and major apps arrive.

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Dashel    542

So a child that isn't smart; can understand and use the start menu but an adult with far more inteligence has trouble "juggling two different and competing UIs"? Is that about right?

And that last line you quoted was meant as a joke, we all know 4 year olds can't navigate the start menu; it's too complex for them!

And sorry to burst your bubble; but I am in an IT position of merit. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to force our users to us Windows 8; not yet anyways. I'm waiting for SP1.

Don't be obtuse by equating their use. I don't follow your second line though. Per the last, is there some show stopping bug that is preventing your adoption? Why are you waiting for SP1? Why not force them and then report on your top help desk items?

You, as an IT Pro, are going to say in all honesty that there is zero user weight to adding a completely new UI on top of the familiar that is more than just the Start Menu, both in scope and integration? Now we can quibble over how heavy you think it is, but to say its weightless?

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Dot Matrix    7,438

W8 Desktop, yes. W8 Metro, not so much. Easy enough, but clumsy and more work. Anything requiring Modern UI search is to be avoided IMO. The epitome of clumsiness, inefficiency, bad design, wasted time, go on, and on.

I'm satisfied with W8. The Desktop Environment is a significant improvement/optimization over Win7 and I've just learned to avoid Modern UI. I don't use it much, there's not really much to use it for. I mostly avoid it though there are some useful apps. Start8 boots me to the desktop and returns an effective, usable search through the Start Menu.

I actually did a refresh when I got a new SSD to activate properly, and had to reinstall programs. Man, it's incredibly shocking to boot to the Start Page after using Win8 booting to the desktop. I was like, wtf, what a waste of time. You can't do anything with this except go to the Desktop. First thing I did was reinstall Start8 and boot to desktop. The Start Page isn't that bad for what it is, but it really was just a nuisance, a huge obstacle to getting work done.

I think it will always be something we just put up with or accept on the Desktop. At least until some major changes and major apps arrive.

It's only an "obstacle" if you make it out to be one. It's no more of an "obstacle" than the Start Menu was. Give it a few years, and it will transform the way we work.

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nekrosoft13    755

Start is the new desktop. ;)

that is the most idiotic thing you ever said

It's certainly not as streamlined as it can/should be.

haha!!! your complaining about something not being streamlined and then you praised windows 8 and metro?

are you for real! or are you trying out for comedian of decade.

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Dot Matrix    7,438

that is the most idiotic thing you ever said

Denying reality. Nice. Doesn't change the fact that what I said is the truth. The changes coming in "Blue" only solidify that statement.

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MorganX    1,044

It's only an "obstacle" if you make it out to be one. It's no more of an "obstacle" than the Start Menu was. Give it a few years, and it will transform the way we work.

It is an obstacle if you have work to do and you have to stop there first, for not good reason and you can't do much there. The Start Menu was a part of an environment, the Explorer UI environment from which you could do much tasks efficiently.

It will itself, transform. Hopefully it won't transform the way I work, it will augment it. Based on the Modern UI's limitations, if it transforms the way I work, I will have to seek alternative platforms. I doubt the desktop environment goes away ever. Meaning the Modern UI will become more Explorer UI-like, because it must for desktop computing, or the DE must remain as it is today.

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nekrosoft13    755

It can also be done by the much more accessible button on your computer.

sometimes yes

not if

1) PC is under a desk

2) PC is mounted on back of monitor

3) PC is hidden in cabinet (like my HTPC

and before you say, duh, you will have same trouble turning it on

perhaps, but when I pull into garage I press a button on my phone and it wakes the pc on lan, so I don't have to reach and get to a button.

start - shutdown, was much simpler.

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Dot Matrix    7,438

It will itself, transform. Hopefully it won't transform the way I work, it will augment it. Based on the Modern UI's limitations, if it transforms the way I work, I will have to seek alternative platforms. I doubt the desktop environment goes away ever. Meaning the Modern UI will become more Explorer UI-like, because it must for desktop computing, or the DE must remain as it is today.

Not sure what you mean by this. The way we work is always constantly changing, no matter what OS we use. It changed from 95 to XP, and it's changed since XP.

Windows 8 Metro will transform the way we work, make no mistake, it just needs time. Slowly users will work their way into using Metro, as common desktop tasks make the transition.

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nekrosoft13    755

companies don't want to adapt windows 8

average consumer tries to avoid windows 8

companies will stick with 7 like they did with xp (and keep using xp as well), until (if) MS releases more viable option

if in few years down the road companies install windows 8, I guarantee metro interface/store will be blocked as companies will not want their employees installing bunch of stupid useless apps and waste time

all metro apps lack function compared to desktop apps

full screen metro apps are idiotic, stardock to rescue again with their new program

windows 8 (especially metro) is full of blunders.

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Brandon H    3,779

companies don't want to adapt windows 8 - not true. the only proven reason most companies aren't gonna upgrade to 8 is because most companies have just recently upgraded to 7

average consumer tries to avoid windows 8 - i don't see this. if they already have a good computer the average user doesn't see a reason to upgrade. but those that have bought new computers with windows 8 on it have either liked it or they are indifferent.

companies will stick with 7 like they did with xp (and keep using xp as well), until (if) MS releases more viable option - once again, not the reason companies are staying with 7. no company upgrades that frequently

if in few years down the road companies install windows 8, I guarantee metro interface/store will be blocked as companies will not want their employees installing bunch of stupid useless apps and waste time - of course they'd block the normal store, but they'd probably have a section of the store with only approved apps or company specific apps

all metro apps lack function compared to desktop apps - so? it's still a new and evolving system. nothing is amazing right off the bat. give it time

full screen metro apps are idiotic, stardock to rescue again with their new program - opinion and nothing more

windows 8 (especially metro) is full of blunders. - still opinion

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Dot Matrix    7,438

companies don't want to adapt windows 8

average consumer tries to avoid windows 8

companies will stick with 7 like they did with xp (and keep using xp as well), until (if) MS releases more viable option

if in few years down the road companies install windows 8, I guarantee metro interface/store will be blocked as companies will not want their employees installing bunch of stupid useless apps and waste time

all metro apps lack function compared to desktop apps

full screen metro apps are idiotic, stardock to rescue again with their new program

windows 8 (especially metro) is full of blunders.

What a completely ignorant statement to make. There is nothing in the rulebooks stating businesses can't adapt to "Smart", dynamic UIs in the workplace, and must remain with "dumb", static UIs for productivity. Not to mention, the Store is available for internal use for companies to launch and deploy vertical apps.

Also, NO one should still be using XP for front end operations. Only idiots would use an unsupported OS.

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MorganX    1,044

Not sure what you mean by this. The way we work is always constantly changing, no matter what OS we use. It changed from 95 to XP, and it's changed since XP.

Not really. Applications have changed the way we work. The Explorer UI, whole more efficient and optimized performance, hasn't really changed much. Not the basic functionality, though I can't remember when copy/paste entered the file system which was critical.

Windows 8 Metro will transform the way we work, make no mistake, it just needs time. Slowly users will work their way into using Metro, as common desktop tasks make the transition.

If Metro is all we're left with it will change the way we work, and not for the better. It has it's niche. Modern UI will have to change or the applications that change the way we work will never become full Modern UI apps. It will be the home of "elements." Meaning, no Photoshop, but a crippled Photoshop "elements" i.e. Fresh Paint.

Some things like drag and drop, MDI, and copy/paste file system cannot currently be duplicated in the Modern UI. The Modern UI will change dramatically if it hopes to do what you suggest.

Windows Server 2012 will change the way we work, along with the Enterprise Applications. Server 2012 will also change how we architect solutions and save TONS of money. Unfortunately the best Windows Server ever is flying under the hype radar of Windows 8.

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+warwagon    13,829

Also, NO one should still be using XP for front end operations. Only idiots would use an unsupported OS.

XP is unsupported? That's strange, I thought it was supported til April 18th 2014.

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MorganX    1,044

sometimes yes

not if

1) PC is under a desk

2) PC is mounted on back of monitor

3) PC is hidden in cabinet (like my HTPC

and before you say, duh, you will have same trouble turning it on

perhaps, but when I pull into garage I press a button on my phone and it wakes the pc on lan, so I don't have to reach and get to a button.

start - shutdown, was much simpler.

I have to agree, using the Power Button is no longer a common practice for all the reasons you mentioned and because it's just not done much anymore, which is a good thing. At least not in the Windows 7+ age.

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Brandon H    3,779

XP is unsupported? That's strange, I thought they were still supporting it til 2014.

i'm guessing he was referring to mainstream support not extended support

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xWhiplash    349

The Start Screen can do everything the old Start menu could, and then some. I still fail to see the problem why some people don't like it. I use a desktop PC and am using Desktop mode 99% of the time, and the Start Screen works perfectly fine. ^_^

Oh, I don't know, you could go set your file association preferences like we've always done and save yourself the gnashing of teeth. You seriously think I used the built-in Metro app for my music? Heck no; I installed Foobar and told it to take over every format it supports...just like I've always done. The only real change is the default Windows programs changed (and I think that should have been an option to have during install, but I digress), but it takes all of a minute to get working the way you want it to. I don't flip between Metro and the Desktop unless I *want* to.

Its like people have forgotten about customizing their install to fit their preferences... This all happened when XP and Vista came out too; people complained before taking the time to see its not really all that different from before, and often is actually better.

Wait a minute. When I install a fresh Windows 7, I do not get thrown into a full screen application. Again, all of this is FORCED on us. We have to perform A LOT of stuff to make it work JUST LIKE Windows 7. It is not as easy as you guys make it out to be.

So yes, this new interface is forced on us. There is no denying that. We cannot just click Desktop and forget about it as you guys suggest. Because, on a stock install, clicking an image will open up a full screen image viewer.

To get it to work as Windows 7 you need to do more than just click desktop. As you said, you also need to change all of these file associations. Which we never had to do in Windows 7 since nothing was using crappy full screen only mode. I mean really, full screen to see ANY size image? Click an image that is 50x50 and it brings this full screen app.

But that still does not help 100%. What about when you see available network connections? Modern UI like display that fills the entire height. So there is really no way to avoid the Metro/Modern UI like you guys say.

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