Restore Start menu but limit it to Pro edition

[Shadrack]

Hmm...I think people will throw a big fit if that were to happen. I'll wait until Windows 9 when MS adds the Start Menu as a "new feature".

[xWhiplash]

What you are saying is anything but objective, it's only your opinion! Just like what Dot says is his opinion.

It doesn't make what you say truth or right, it's only YOUR opinion.

I also did not complain about anything you said, I commented on what Warwagon replied to you.

So....everybody complaining about no direct to desktop mode....no start menu....hidden hot corners.....all of these complaints. It will NOT help the press about Windows 8 if they would just give us some damn options?

How is that an opinion? Look at all the complaints. Most of them are because they hate the start screen. Provide an option to those users and the complaints go away. It is not an opinion. Having such options will eliminate most of the complaints.

AN opinion would be "I hate the start screen". Which I do not. I prefer the desktop THAT IS AN OPINION. I have explained why I prefer the desktop, yet I get attacked for preferring it. But it is not an opinion to say that if such options were provided to us, the complaints would be far less. That is not an opinion.

It is not an opinion to say this is Vista all over again. What was wrong with Vista? When that came out, I installed it (at the time) a 3 year old computer and everything was fine. So ultimately what was the problem with Vista? Bad press right? I remember people telling me they HEARD Vista sucked and did not want it. They did not try it themselves, they heard it sucks. Therefore, bad press/word of mouth. What is happening here? Same thing. All these news articles.

Do you think Joe Somebody cares if the author of the article hates hates hates MS? No, they will read something and say "Well I read Windows 8 sucked".

So again, how is NOT A FACT that providing options to the user will not help the news about Windows 8? Those that hate the Start Screen and would like the Start Menu - an option would fix that. Those that hate the hot corners - an option would fix that. Those that want to boot directly to the desktop - an option would fix that.

Most people prefer not to resort to third party software for OS enhancements.

[c.grz]

One thing I've noticed regarding this whole thing is how my 4 year old's interact with Windows. My kids have grown up in a "touch enabled" world. Put my kids in front of my old T60 laptop running Windows 7 and they're lost; but put them in front of my ThinkCentre M90z (Thanks Neowin!) running Windows 8 and they're instantly engaged and they understand the start screen.

Windows 8 is Microsoft looking towards the future; those of us that grew up in the "Keyboard and Mouse" world are dinosaurs. Microsoft is beginning to create an ecosystem that promotes touch and my kids will grow up with it and touch will be to them what keyboard and mouse are to us; a natural way of using computers.

Those that miss the start menu are just the first of many that will take it hard as Microsoft shifts it's way of thinking in creating an operating system. The "next generation" on the other hand will just adapt and keep moving forward.

[Dashel]

I don't think reaffirming that a four year old can use it is helping the argument, instead of throwing gas on it. Again, touch and 'natural input' are not replacements, but augments. The replacement for a highly accurate and ergonomic input replacement hasn't been developed yet. Such anecdotal statements are just silly and preposterous to the claims at hand.

If you want to kill the Desktop metaphor, I'm all for something better. Satistying children isn't a way forward however. You can go sing about how children are the future somewhere else. ;)

PGHammer, if you still don't see how it changes workflow beyond simple app launching I'm not going to repeat myself. Unusable does not equal optimal or tuned.

[c.grz]

I don't think reaffirming that a four year old can use it is helping the argument, instead of throwing gas on it. Again, touch and 'natural input' are not replacements, but augments. The replacement for a highly accurate and ergonomic input replacement hasn't been developed yet. Such anecdotal statements are just silly and preposterous to the claims at hand.

If you want to kill the Desktop metaphor, I'm all for something better. Satistying children isn't a way forward however. You can go sing about how children are the future somewhere else. ;)

PGHammer, if you still don't see how it changes workflow beyond simple app launching I'm not going to repeat myself.

So let me rephrase; just because many people don't feel that touch and natural input are a replacement for highly accurate and ergonomic input doesn't mean that it isn't. Many of us grew up with keyboards and mice and that seems natural to us. For people that grow up with touch and natural input; that will be natural to them.

PS: My kids hate the start menu!!! :shiftyninja:

[MorganX]

I don't think reaffirming that a four year old can use it is helping the argument, instead of throwing gas on it. Again, touch and 'natural input' are not replacements, but augments. The replacement for a highly accurate and ergonomic input replacement hasn't been developed yet. Such anecdotal statements are just silly and preposterous to the claims at hand.

If you want to kill the Desktop metaphor, I'm all for something better. Satistying children isn't a way forward however. You can go sing about how children are the future somewhere else. ;)

PGHammer, if you still don't see how it changes workflow beyond simple app launching I'm not going to repeat myself. Unusable does not equal optimal or tuned.

Actually touch is no different than using a mouse. It simply requires less hand eye coordination and is not as precise. The latter is a part of why it has not been embraced by what I guess will not be classified as "workstation" users.

Touch is not new, Kiosks have limited success and appeal after their initial buzz. Touch is the input method for tablets and phones because is a matter of physical appropriateness. That is all.

The problem isn't touch. The problem is Microsoft buying into the notion that we are currently in a Post PC era as dictated by Apple's Tim Cook, and they have shoehorned a touch UI where it is not optimal, on a Desktop PC. It is as optimal on a desktop PC, as the Explorer UI proved to be on tablets and phones, not very.

Edit: Oddly enough, if they can get the price and form factor low and small enough, I believe Kinect for PC is much more suited for PC input than physical touch, to augment Mouse/Keyboard, on a Desktop. The only problem is the waving gesture to activate Kinect's input. When this can be eliminated, I'd like to give it a go with Windows 8 and Modern UI apps (when meaningful ones are available).

[nekrosoft13]

One thing I've noticed regarding this whole thing is how my 4 year old's interact with Windows. My kids have grown up in a "touch enabled" world. Put my kids in front of my old T60 laptop running Windows 7 and they're lost; but put them in front of my ThinkCentre M90z (Thanks Neowin!) running Windows 8 and they're instantly engaged and they understand the start screen.

Windows 8 is Microsoft looking towards the future; those of us that grew up in the "Keyboard and Mouse" world are dinosaurs. Microsoft is beginning to create an ecosystem that promotes touch and my kids will grow up with it and touch will be to them what keyboard and mouse are to us; a natural way of using computers.

Those that miss the start menu are just the first of many that will take it hard as Microsoft shifts it's way of thinking in creating an operating system. The "next generation" on the other hand will just adapt and keep moving forward.

sorry but that's BS

touch is fine for certain things, but not when you need precision unless you modify everyones fingers to have a pointy precise tip.

Touch is fine for leisure web surfing or screwing around in paint.

If you need precise work you and use pressure sensitive pen, you can use a mouse and keyboard.

This is similar argument to gamepad/k+m in gaming. Gamepad simply can't match k+m if you need precision.

What I'm trying to get at is that every device/activity has input method that works the best.

k+m = precise work, photoshop, autocad (can use 3d mouse), works with all games, must for some games

touch = phone, tablet, kids toy, screwing around in paint

pressure sensitive pen = painting in photoshop

gamepad = platform games, arcade racing games

wheel = racing games, especially simulators

what MS did with windows 8 Is they tried to combine two operating systems into one, and they failed at both.

[nekrosoft13]

On a different topic, I really hate windows 8 flip-flopping nature.

yesterday I tried to add Bluetooth device to my windows 8 machine.

While in desktop mode I go to taskbar, right click Bluetooth and go to add device, and my desktop flip-flops to the hostile metro taking over the entire screen, i'm not blind! I don't need a giant menu on 24 inch screen!!

it didn't find the device, so I click on trouble connecting your device, and it flip-flops again back to desktop and launches help menu.

What idiot at MS had a bright idea to replace a simple small menu in desktop with giant intrusive metro menu.

You simply can't have a normal deskop/workstation interface on windows 8.

[Stoffel]

sorry but that's BS

touch is fine for certain things, but not when you need precision unless you modify everyones fingers to have a pointy precise tip.

Touch is fine for leisure web surfing or screwing around in paint.

If you need precise work you and use pressure sensitive pen, you can use a mouse and keyboard.

This is similar argument to gamepad/k+m in gaming. Gamepad simply can't match k+m if you need precision.

What I'm trying to get at is that every device/activity has input method that works the best.

k+m = precise work, photoshop, autocad (can use 3d mouse), works with all games, must for some games

touch = phone, tablet, kids toy, screwing around in paint

pressure sensitive pen = painting in photoshop

gamepad = platform games, arcade racing games

wheel = racing games, especially simulators

what MS did with windows 8 Is they tried to combine two operating systems into one, and they failed at both.

But why can't we use the Metro environment for our leisure and entertainment and then move over to the desktop for the real work?

I still really don't see the problem. We have more choices of input then ever before. Use what you like for the right task.

Sounds pretty great to me

On a different topic, I really hate windows 8 flip-flopping nature.

yesterday I tried to add Bluetooth device to my windows 8 machine.

While in desktop mode I go to taskbar, right click Bluetooth and go to add device, and my desktop flip-flops to the hostile metro taking over the entire screen, i'm not blind! I don't need a giant menu on 24 inch screen!!

it didn't find the device, so I click on trouble connecting your device, and it flip-flops again back to desktop and launches help menu.

What idiot at MS had a bright idea to replace a simple small menu in desktop with giant intrusive metro menu.

You simply can't have a normal deskop/workstation interface on windows 8.

You sound like a little child now, using words like hostile

[nekrosoft13]

because with stock setup, you are being forced into metro, and even in desktop mode you are still flip-flopping.

All would be good if they would just add metro, when you first install/lauch windows give the user the choice.

1) 100% desktop ui

2) flip-flopping metro/desktop ui

3) 100% metro ui

You sound like a little child now, using words like hostile

because its hostile, I was watching youtube video (that takes about 20% of screen). in windows 7 I could add Bluetooth device without any disturbance, because add device menus are small and it would not block the video.

but no, on windows 8 metro takes over entire screen, hostile ui that takes over entire screen. so a small menu now has been replaced with giant full screen menu.

[ahhell]

But why can't we use the Metro environment for our leisure and entertainment and then move over to the desktop for the real work?

I still really don't see the problem. We have more choices of input then ever before. Use what you like for the right task.

Sounds pretty great to me

You sound like a little child now, using words like hostile

I don't think he knows what that word means.

He seems to think that MS came up with Win8/Modern just to anger him.

[xWhiplash]

Maybe not the right word, but you know what he is saying. Many people here say you can completely ignore the new interface very very easily if you want to.....wrong. It takes so much work to do that. Once I double click an image in the stock install, what happens? My full 30" monitor is now displaying one 200x200 pixel image. It makes NO sense at all.

Whenever I double click an audio file, my full 30" monitor is filled up. Why do I need to my entire screen filled just to listen to a song?

Say what you want about Chris Perillo, but he did have a valid point on this topic. If I am in desktop, I should stay in desktop. If I am in metro, I should stay in metro. This flip-flopping makes Windows 8 look like a joke. And all of you saying just click Desktop and you can completely ignore the new interface....are wrong. Or those of you saying Desktop mode works EXACTLY like Windows 7....also wrong It takes a lot more work that that as I have mentioned above.

[Dot Matrix]

Maybe not the right word, but you know what he is saying. Many people here say you can completely ignore the new interface very very easily if you want to.....wrong. It takes so much work to do that. Once I double click an image in the stock install, what happens? My full 30" monitor is now displaying one 200x200 pixel image. It makes NO sense at all.

Whenever I double click an audio file, my full 30" monitor is filled up. Why do I need to my entire screen filled just to listen to a song?

Say what you want about Chris Perillo, but he did have a valid point on this topic. If I am in desktop, I should stay in desktop. If I am in metro, I should stay in metro. This flip-flopping makes Windows 8 look like a joke. And all of you saying just click Desktop and you can completely ignore the new interface....are wrong. Or those of you saying Desktop mode works EXACTLY like Windows 7....also wrong It takes a lot more work that that as I have mentioned above.

Start is the new desktop. ;)

[Kronir]

The Start Screen can do everything the old Start menu could, and then some. I still fail to see the problem why some people don't like it. I use a desktop PC and am using Desktop mode 99% of the time, and the Start Screen works perfectly fine. ^_^

Maybe not the right word, but you know what he is saying. Many people here say you can completely ignore the new interface very very easily if you want to.....wrong. It takes so much work to do that. Once I double click an image in the stock install, what happens? My full 30" monitor is now displaying one 200x200 pixel image. It makes NO sense at all.

Whenever I double click an audio file, my full 30" monitor is filled up. Why do I need to my entire screen filled just to listen to a song?

Say what you want about Chris Perillo, but he did have a valid point on this topic. If I am in desktop, I should stay in desktop. If I am in metro, I should stay in metro. This flip-flopping makes Windows 8 look like a joke. And all of you saying just click Desktop and you can completely ignore the new interface....are wrong. Or those of you saying Desktop mode works EXACTLY like Windows 7....also wrong It takes a lot more work that that as I have mentioned above.

Oh, I don't know, you could go set your file association preferences like we've always done and save yourself the gnashing of teeth. You seriously think I used the built-in Metro app for my music? Heck no; I installed Foobar and told it to take over every format it supports...just like I've always done. The only real change is the default Windows programs changed (and I think that should have been an option to have during install, but I digress), but it takes all of a minute to get working the way you want it to. I don't flip between Metro and the Desktop unless I *want* to.

Its like people have forgotten about customizing their install to fit their preferences... This all happened when XP and Vista came out too; people complained before taking the time to see its not really all that different from before, and often is actually better.

[BajiRav]

One thing I've noticed regarding this whole thing is how my 4 year old's interact with Windows. My kids have grown up in a "touch enabled" world. Put my kids in front of my old T60 laptop running Windows 7 and they're lost; but put them in front of my ThinkCentre M90z (Thanks Neowin!) running Windows 8 and they're instantly engaged and they understand the start screen.

Windows 8 is Microsoft looking towards the future; those of us that grew up in the "Keyboard and Mouse" world are dinosaurs. Microsoft is beginning to create an ecosystem that promotes touch and my kids will grow up with it and touch will be to them what keyboard and mouse are to us; a natural way of using computers.

Those that miss the start menu are just the first of many that will take it hard as Microsoft shifts it's way of thinking in creating an operating system. The "next generation" on the other hand will just adapt and keep moving forward.

OT but just wanted to mention that my 20month old is confused every time she tries to control Xbox by touching TV and nothing happens.

because with stock setup, you are being forced into metro, and even in desktop mode you are still flip-flopping.

All would be good if they would just add metro, when you first install/lauch windows give the user the choice.

1) 100% desktop ui

2) flip-flopping metro/desktop ui

3) 100% metro ui

because its hostile, I was watching youtube video (that takes about 20% of screen). in windows 7 I could add Bluetooth device without any disturbance, because add device menus are small and it would not block the video.

but no, on windows 8 metro takes over entire screen, hostile ui that takes over entire screen. so a small menu now has been replaced with giant full screen menu.

Is "user hostile" the new talking point of the anti-Windows 8 brigade? On a related note I really want to learn how to watch youtube and configure BT at the same time.

[abysal]

Arguing over replacement start menus becomes pointless with Windows Blue. Microsoft has seemingly removed 90%+ of the code needed for replacement start menus to work in the first place. StartIsBack, Start8, etc. They don't work on Windows Blue (at least right now, not sure what can be done about it).

This is amazing :D Is this really what they're doing? I can't wait for this train wreck to come to conclusion.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Start is the new desktop. ;)

If that's not sad, I don't know what is.

[Dot Matrix]

Arguing over replacement start menus becomes pointless with Windows Blue. Microsoft has seemingly removed 90%+ of the code needed for replacement start menus to work in the first place. StartIsBack, Start8, etc. They don't work on Windows Blue (at least right now, not sure what can be done about it).

The final nail in the Start Menu coffin.

[+Warwagon MVC]

One thing I've noticed regarding this whole thing is how my 4 year old's interact with Windows. My kids have grown up in a "touch enabled" world. Put my kids in front of my old T60 laptop running Windows 7 and they're lost; but put them in front of my ThinkCentre M90z (Thanks Neowin!) running Windows 8 and they're instantly engaged and they understand the start screen.

I'm sure most power users and engineers just love a UI a 4 year old can use.

[Dot Matrix]

I'm sure most power users and engineers just love a UI a 4 year old can use.

Power users and engineers are not representative of the larger PC market.

Power users don't even need an overly complex UI to get the most out of their systems.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Power users and engineers are not representative of the larger PC market.

Power users don't even need an overly complex UI to get the most out of their systems.

Did you just call the Windows 7 UI and Start Menu overly complex?

[Dot Matrix]

Did you just call the Windows 7 UI and Start Menu overly complex?

It's certainly not as streamlined as it can/should be.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

The funny thing about this is that Windows 8 as a whole actually has a far more complex UI than Windows 7.

[+Warwagon MVC]

It's certainly not as streamlined as it can/should be.

Actually seeing how the "New" Modern UI in Windows 8 is hiding everything from you throwing you into a full screen app without any indication about what to do next. I would personally call that an overly complex UI, at least on the desktop.

For example

Accessing the Control Panel

Windows 7 : Start / Control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom left to make a hidden square appear, right click it and choose control panel

Windows 8: Put your mouse in the bottom / top right to bring up a hidden charms bar / click select settings / click control panel.

Windows 8: On they keyboard with the left hand press press Windows key + C/ then with the mouse click settings on the charms bar / then click control panel.

Windows 8: Press the windows key on the keyboard. Take your hand off the mouse and type control panel, then put your hand back on the mouse and click control panel.

[Dashel]

PS: My kids hate the start menu!!! :shiftyninja:

No surprise there, kids aren't smart, have little organizational skill, and their hand-eye coordination hasn't been developed yet (just like a certain poster here). When they grow up and have to do stuff, that story will change. The problem isn't touch as Morgan notes, but its implementation. They aren't replacements. That isn't an opinion, its fact.

If you don't see how it is more complex (and requires more mental effort) for average users to juggle two different and competing UIs (since you guys keep saying you agree that Metro is a competitor with the Desktop and does introduce a radical new UI) then you will never get it since you aren't bound by reality. Which is fine as long as you don't end up in any IT position of merit, or worse, become another brain dead Mac/Google loving developer.