Laughing-Man Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Well I did not want to post this as an argument piece, I just wanted to show that is it pretty sad what went on during Saddam's reign, from a survey taken by the Gallup Poll. I saw this in the news a couple times today and found it rather interesting. Source: Link BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Saddam Hussein's government may have executed 61,000 Baghdad residents, a number significantly higher than previously believed, according to a survey obtained Monday by The Associated Press.The bloodiest massacres of Saddam's 23-year presidency occurred in Iraq's Kurdish north and Shiite Muslim south, but the Gallup Baghdad Survey data indicates the brutality extended strongly into the capital as well. The survey, which the polling firm planned to release on Tuesday, asked 1,178 Baghdad residents in August and September whether a member of their household had been executed by Saddam's regime. According to Gallup, 6.6 percent said yes. The polling firm took metropolitan Baghdad's population - 6.39 million - and average household size - 6.9 people - to calculate that 61,000 people were executed during Saddam's rule. Past estimates were in the low tens of thousands. Most are believed to have been buried in mass graves. The U.S.-led occupation authority in Iraq has said that at least 300,000 people are buried in mass graves in Iraq. Human rights officials put the number closer to 500,000, and some Iraqi political parties estimate more than 1 million were executed. Without exhumations of those graves, it is impossible to confirm a figure. Scientists told The Associated Press during a recent investigation that they have confirmed 41 mass graves on a list of suspected sites that currently includes 270 locations. Forensic teams will begin to exhume four of those graves next month in search of evidence for a new tribunal, expected to be established this week, that will try members of the former regime for crimes against humanity and genocide. More graves will later be added to the list. But nobody expects all the mass graves to be exhumed, and nobody expects to ever know the full number of Iraqis executed by their government. Richard Burkholder, who headed Gallup's Baghdad team, said the numbers in Baghdad could be high for two reasons: People may have understood "household" to be broader than just the people living at their address; and some families may have moved to the capital from other areas since the executions occurred. "Anecdotal accounts start to support it, but they don't get you to 60,000," he said in a telephone interview from Princeton, N.J. Even reducing the numbers slightly because of those possibilities, however, Burkholder said the number of executions the data suggest is higher than previously estimated, in the low tens of thousands. The deadliest atrocity associated with Saddam's government was the scorched-earth campaign known as the "Anfal," in which the government killed an estimated 180,000 Kurds in Iraq's far north. Many were buried in mass graves far from home in the southern desert. Another 60,000 people are believed to have been killed when Saddam violently suppressed rebellions by Shiite Muslims in the south and Kurds in the north at the close of the 1991 Gulf War. Sandra Hodgkinson, director of the U.S.-led occupation authority's human rights office, estimated that some 50,000 others were executed during Saddam's reign, including Kurds killed in chemical attacks and political prisoners sent to execution. That 50,000 figure also would include prisoners killed in Baghdad. The survey, which had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points, was conducted in face-to-face interviews in Baghdad residents' homes from Aug. 28 and Sept. 4. The people were selected at random from all geographic sectors of the Baghdad metropolitan area, and more than nine in 10 agreed to participate. That's at least double the response rate for many U.S. telephone polls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betelgeuse Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 ...and somewhere that ###### is still alive. He should be given a dose of his own medicine IMHO. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing-Man Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 ...and somewhere that ###### is still alive. He should be given a dose of his own medicine IMHO. :angry: Well I know this does not come close to what Saddam has done, but being removed from power, seeing his country fall and being invaded by his most hated enemies, watching his statues being torn down, his pictures being defaced, his army not fighting for him, Iraqis celebrating his removal, the US army living in his palaces, and especially the deaths of his two sons must be pretty painful. The so called "empire" that he has built after all these years is nothing more, but a thing of the past. Everything that he has known or built has been destroyed. Even though this is extremely harsh, nothing will bring back all those he had killed. If the US ever finds him I seriously hope they take him alive. I would like to see him be put on trial by the Iraqis and see what they have in store for him as payback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snippet1 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 ^ ditto, jmole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prelude76 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Well I know this does not come close to what Saddam has done, but being removed from power, seeing his country fall and being invaded by his most hated enemies, watching his statues being torn down.If the US ever finds him I seriously hope they take him alive. I would like to see him be put on trial by the Iraqis and see what they have in store for him as payback. US wont take him alive. same as Osama (did they forget about him?). reason being those 2 know a bit too much about past US administrations. Osama could talk about the millions given to him by CIA so he could fight Russians. and Saddam could talk about how Rumsfel met him personally and shook his hand and agreed to give him military aid so he could clamp down on the Kurds and fight against Iran. The US has had this stupid "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude for decades and all that past is now coming and biting them back hard. and about the "free iraqis cheering the statue toppling in bahdad", that was a PR ploy (and a very successful one at that). but pictures show a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poind Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Glad the article touches upon numbers that are likely even much higher. If anything, I was shocked the thread topic had such a low number from what I've heard of Saddam any number of other places. If Saddam's still alive and running around somewhere in Iraq, I'm getting increasingly surprised he's not been found. Gotta wonder at least if he's being harbored by another country. Why the guy was "allowed" to maintain power the last decade or so (post-Gulf War) is beyond me, and one of the bigger shameful things of mankind overall I've known in my lifetime. Abhorrent. :no: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing-Man Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 If Saddam's still alive and running around somewhere in Iraq, I'm getting increasingly surprised he's not been found. Gotta wonder at least if he's being harbored by another country. The weird thing is, like with Osama, I am not totally convinced that they are even alive. I know that audio tapes were deemed authentic for both men, but you would think that they would make a video to rub it in our faces that they are still alive. If I saw a new video then I would definitely be convinced, but for now I am a bit skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clonk Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 US wont take him alive. same as Osama (did they forget about him?). reason being those 2 know a bit too much about past US administrations. Osama could talk about the millions given to him by CIA so he could fight Russians. and Saddam could talk about how Rumsfel met him personally and shook his hand and agreed to give him military aid so he could clamp down on the Kurds and fight against Iran.The US has had this stupid "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude for decades and all that past is now coming and biting them back hard. and about the "free iraqis cheering the statue toppling in bahdad", that was a PR ploy (and a very successful one at that). but pictures show a different story. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/images/CHALIB~1.gif You always need to take a story and derive some negative from it don't you? Does a nation's leader killing hundreds of thousands of his own people not move you enough to say, yes its good that this man can no longer harm the people in his country? I suppose you think that the US are pigs for helping to destroy the Nazi regime as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing-Man Posted December 14, 2003 Author Share Posted December 14, 2003 (edited) You always need to take a story and derive some negative from it don't you? Does a nation's leader killing hundreds of thousands of his own people not move you enough to say, yes its good that this man can no longer harm the people in his country? I suppose you think that the US are pigs for helping to destroy the Nazi regime as well. This is exactly what I have been rambling about in threads lately. Something evil the US has done always has to be brought up in every freaking thread even if it has little or no relation to the topic. I put an article about the amount of people Saddam has killed and somehow an evil conspiracy by the US government is brought up about the statue falling down. What does the US involvement with the Saddam statue have to do with 61,000 getting killed in Baghdad by Saddam? I said it probably hurt Saddam to see it go down, we do not need some anti-US explaination about it. These random anti-US posts are getting annoying. Finally someone else sees what has been going on in these threads and I am not imagining things. And I apologize if this post is off topic silly_walk. I do not have a problem with people saying or having opinions that are bad things about the US/Bush/whatever, but must it be brought up in every single thread, topic, issue. Personally I do not think it is necessary to make every single issue mentioned in RWI a US conspiracy or something we have done wrong. Some of things brought up are just plain rediculous considering what is currently being discussed. Edited December 14, 2003 by jmole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digipoi Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Finally someone else sees what has been going on in these threads and I am not imagining things. And I appoligize for getting off topic with this one. Shoot, Ive noticed since the day I stepped into RWI. Many folks say its not just a forum for Americans yet almost every thread pertains to us and how evil we are. Then we get these reposts lately of statue pics which has been posted months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clonk Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Shoot, Ive noticed since the day I stepped into RWI. Many folks say its not just a forum for Americans yet almost every thread pertains to us and how evil we are. Then we get these reposts lately of statue pics which has been posted months ago. I know digipoi. I enjoy reading your posts in the debate threads, I think you and Samoa always post very reasonable arguements. We'll have a good laugh when Iraq turns into the prosperous and free nation it has always deserved to be and then go ask all the naysayers if it wasn't worth it. Hell I think that the war was worth it alone for freeing the Iraqi people. If people like dabeen and prelude76 lived in iraq I'm sure they would be singing a different tune than they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clonk Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 US wont take him alive. Wrong wrong wrong hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldyn Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 US wont take him alive... Ooo. Would you like ketchup with that foot? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthater Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 OOPS. :D Took him alive after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samoa Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 US wont take him alive. same as Osama (did they forget about him?). reason being those 2 know a bit too much about past US administrations. Osama could talk about the millions given to him by CIA so he could fight Russians. and Saddam could talk about how Rumsfel met him personally and shook his hand and agreed to give him military aid so he could clamp down on the Kurds and fight against Iran.The US has had this stupid "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude for decades and all that past is now coming and biting them back hard. and about the "free iraqis cheering the statue toppling in bahdad", that was a PR ploy (and a very successful one at that). but pictures show a different story. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/images/CHALIB~1.gif guess you were wrong... :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digipoi Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Ooo. Would you like ketchup with that foot? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: pure hillario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samoa Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: pure hillario. Not when the smell hits you after the shoe is off... :x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 pwned. Plain and simple. Guess the guarantee on your Know-It All pills is void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isomer Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 US wont take him alive. same as Osama (did they forget about him?). reason being those 2 know a bit too much about past US administrations. Osama could talk about the millions given to him by CIA so he could fight Russians. and Saddam could talk about how Rumsfel met him personally and shook his hand and agreed to give him military aid so he could clamp down on the Kurds and fight against Iran.The US has had this stupid "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude for decades and all that past is now coming and biting them back hard. and about the "free iraqis cheering the statue toppling in bahdad", that was a PR ploy (and a very successful one at that). but pictures show a different story. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/images/CHALIB~1.gif wow i love this... you look so foolish now :woot: :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBeeeenster Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 I know digipoi. I enjoy reading your posts in the debate threads, I think you and Samoa always post very reasonable arguements. We'll have a good laugh when Iraq turns into the prosperous and free nation it has always deserved to be and then go ask all the naysayers if it wasn't worth it. Hell I think that the war was worth it alone for freeing the Iraqi people. If people like dabeen and prelude76 lived in iraq I'm sure they would be singing a different tune than they are now. Ah yes, just like that beacon of peace and prosperity that is Afghanistan. Is your memory really that short? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Veteran Posted December 15, 2003 Veteran Share Posted December 15, 2003 Ah yes, just like that beacon of peace and prosperity that is Afghanistan. Is your memory really that short? Honestly Been, if you were being anymore short-sighted in this your head would have to be in your monitor for you to read this. No one said that Afganistan was going to be transformed in a short period of time (anybody's definition of a "short period of time" at that too). For the record, Iraq is going to have an easier time of it too. The Iraqis have a lot more to work with than the Afgans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Veteran Posted December 15, 2003 Veteran Share Posted December 15, 2003 Ah yes, just like that beacon of peace and prosperity that is Afghanistan. Is your memory really that short? Absolutely right. What a failure that the Afghans are not among the most developed even though it has been, what 1-1.5 years since the Taliban was removed? I can't beleive that they aren't fully recovered yet, what are these Afghans made of anyway? :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBeeeenster Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 LOL! You people really are swallowing this "moral" argument eh? Great stuff. And this was being campaigned before 9/11 how much? I guess I will be seeing your faces in the parades against the 500M USD that the US government gave to Uzbekistan (a country that boils people alive for holding opinions that differ from the state), or the parade against human rights abuses in China, or the parade against human rights abuses in Turkey... Yeah, you can wave your flags and shout about "freedom" and "democracy". I guess you were shouting those things in the 80's when Saddam was a friend, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isomer Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 I guess you were shouting those things in the 80's when Saddam was a friend, right? uh right in the 80's everyone knew what we now know about Saddam... sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted December 16, 2003 Veteran Share Posted December 16, 2003 uh right in the 80's everyone knew what we now know about Saddam... sure Actually they did know but they had bigger fish to fry at that time. He was a tool towards a bigger goal (the defeat of the commies). The ends justify the means, yada, yada, yada... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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