guns;accidents Girl, 9, kills Arizona shooting instructor with Uzi in accident

[Soldiers33]

What is it, with people these days trying to teach everyone something. No one has ever taught me about guns and how they are dangerous. Thats just common sense, and you should know from all the movies and violence. No one taught me, and I wouldnt dare even touch one. Kids who find guns and play with them are pure idiots or just want attention from other kids.

[Lizardslap]

gun was probly full auto this accident was definitly caused from somone being dumb giving her a weapon she couldnt handle

[+devHead Subscriber²]

No reason why kids can't shoot guns. However an Uzi is a bit much....I question the intelligence of a person who thought handing a fully automatic weapon to a 9 year old would be a good idea. Try teaching them to shoot something most people will actually own and a 9 year old girl can handle. A .22 caliber pistol or rifle would have been a better choice.

No reason?  Really, you think there is not one single reason why kids shouldn't be given guns to shoot?  I'm sorry, but I have a little girl, and when she turns 9, I will not be thinking, 'well, she's 9, there's no reason I can think of that a child shouldn't be shooting guns, so I guess I'll take her somewhere to get trained to shoot guns.'  Even a rifle would have sufficient kickback to knock a kid to the ground.  I'm just awestruck at how some people can think little children should be shooting real guns. 

[Skiver Veteran]

What is it, with people these days trying to teach everyone something. No one has ever taught me about guns and how they are dangerous. Thats just common sense, and you should know from all the movies and violence. No one taught me, and I wouldnt dare even touch one. Kids who find guns and play with them are pure idiots or just want attention from other kids.

 

Because (and maybe making a massively wrong assumption here) you're location says London. Guns aren't part of your everyday life like it is and has been for many years in America. 

 

Given I am a fellow brit and not an American, what I really don't get is the people on here constantly trying to tell the American's... "you're doing it wrong". What works for us, may not work for them. If tomorrow there suddenly was a law in America that banned Guns... do you honestly think every single person would just hand theirs over freely and the world would be a better place?

 

No, what you would have is the decent law abiding citizens now being held up at gun point left right and centre because the ones that aren't so law abiding will now know they aren't carrying. Right now guns are there for two reasons, hobbies and protection. Not neccisarly protection in the sense that some people pull them out but more to use them but its a deterrant, in America you need to know that if you pull a gun on someone they may or may not be packing and that is a much greater risk to trying to rob someone then there is anywhere here in England. Sure its possible someone may have some weapon, maybe even a gun, but the likelyhood of that happening in a place like England is so much less. So if you greatly decress the risk in someone being able to defend themselves in a way that could end up with you getting killed, it's more likely to happen.

 

You're taught to drive a car in England (In General here, not neccisarly relating to you) why? Because it's dangerous, and until someone teaches you the correct method to use a vehicle you are a danger to yourself and others. This is exactly what should have been happening here. The older you get, the harder it is to learn something, so why not start as early as possible? Again, taking driving as a lesson... this is why you now see young drivers sessions that start kids off at 11, why? Not a single person has agreed with the weapon choice here, American or not. 

[FloatingFatMan]

^ There are plenty of American's here saying the same thing as Soldier33... There's just no real need to be teaching children how to shoot guns.

[Skiver Veteran]

^ There are plenty of American's here saying the same thing as Soldier33... There's just no real need to be teaching children how to shoot guns.

Granted I may have gone a bit more of a rant then I intented, horrible habbit of using 1000 words when 10 would probably do it. However the point I was trying to make was that being british, of course you wouldn't be, its not as part of our everyday life as it is theres. It's just not a comparable situation to me.

 

Granted I haven't been keeping a tally of who is ok with it and who isn't etc so I'm sure there are some Americans saying it was just wrong full stop, and of course that's fine. IMO, they are giving an opinion based on their everyday life however, so I would argue they are at least better suited to judge their own country and it's attitude on guns.

[dead.cell]

Granted I may have gone a bit more of a rant then I intented, horrible habbit of using 1000 words when 10 would probably do it. However the point I was trying to make was that being british, of course you wouldn't be, its not as part of our everyday life as it is theres. It's just not a comparable situation to me.

 

Granted I haven't been keeping a tally of who is ok with it and who isn't etc so I'm sure there are some Americans saying it was just wrong full stop, and of course that's fine. IMO, they are giving an opinion based on their everyday life however, so I would argue they are at least better suited to judge their own country and it's attitude on guns.

Thank you! Finally, an opinion I can agree with.

 

I'm quite sure those in the EU and elsewhere don't want Americans telling them how to run things, but the opposite is also quite true. I won't sit around here pretending I know how things are for those in the UK, Belgium, Germany, or what have you. I'm just not in the position to.

 

I can weigh in on what I can, but that doesn't change the fact that I've not stepped in their shoes and can give them a solid opinion based on experience.

[techbeck]

Granted I may have gone a bit more of a rant then I intented, horrible habbit of using 1000 words when 10 would probably do it. However the point I was trying to make was that being british, of course you wouldn't be, its not as part of our everyday life as it is theres. It's just not a comparable situation to me.

 

Granted I haven't been keeping a tally of who is ok with it and who isn't etc so I'm sure there are some Americans saying it was just wrong full stop, and of course that's fine. IMO, they are giving an opinion based on their everyday life however, so I would argue they are at least better suited to judge their own country and it's attitude on guns.

 

 

Thank you! Finally, an opinion I can agree with.

 

I'm quite sure those in the EU and elsewhere don't want Americans telling them how to run things, but the opposite is also quite true. I won't sit around here pretending I know how things are for those in the UK, Belgium, Germany, or what have you. I'm just not in the position to.

 

I can weigh in on what I can, but that doesn't change the fact that I've not stepped in their shoes and can give them a solid opinion based on experience.

 

(Y)

[theyarecomingforyou]

Thank you! Finally, an opinion I can agree with.

 

I'm quite sure those in the EU and elsewhere don't want Americans telling them how to run things, but the opposite is also quite true. I won't sit around here pretending I know how things are for those in the UK, Belgium, Germany, or what have you. I'm just not in the position to.

 

I can weigh in on what I can, but that doesn't change the fact that I've not stepped in their shoes and can give them a solid opinion based on experience.

All countries should look to others and see where they can improve. You don't see other countries teaching children how to use Uzis or other automatic weapons because it's not a reasonable or rational thing to do. It's not as if this is even a one-off, as it was only a few years back that an eight year old boy was killed when using an Uzi at a gun show. Even accepting that guns are part of US culture this is ridiculous - it would be like giving a child a bottle of Absinthe to teach them about alcohol. One should always question the values of society to see where improvements can be made.

 

Why is it that restrictions are in place for substances like alcohol and tobacco yet not for firearms?

[techbeck]

All countries should look to others and see where they can improve. You don't see other countries teaching children how to use Uzis or other automatic weapons because it's not a reasonable or rational thing to do.

 

Sure you do.  You have people in countries teaching kids not only to use a weapon, but also how to train and fight and kill people at a young age.  Some are even turned in to suicide bomber

 

And the country of the United States is not teaching kids to use weapons.  It is the citizens that are doing it.

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/meast/syria-isis-atrocities-boy/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

[trag3dy]

No reason?  Really, you think there is not one single reason why kids shouldn't be given guns to shoot?  I'm sorry, but I have a little girl, and when she turns 9, I will not be thinking, 'well, she's 9, there's no reason I can think of that a child shouldn't be shooting guns, so I guess I'll take her somewhere to get trained to shoot guns.'  Even a rifle would have sufficient kickback to knock a kid to the ground.  I'm just awestruck at how some people can think little children should be shooting real guns. 

 

Good for you. I still stand by what I said.

 

There is no reason why children can't learn to shoot weapons. If you don't like guns that's fine, nothing wrong with that. My cousins have kids ranging from 4 to 10 and they're all aware of how to use guns and how dangerous they are.

 

"Even a rifle would have sufficient kickback to knock a kid to the ground."

 

That's why you give them one that they can handle, as, you know, a starting point. You don't just throw them in the deep in and say "here's an uzi,  have at it" like the stupid instructor did. Not all weapons are the same, you know?

 

 

All countries should look to others and see where they can improve. You don't see other countries teaching children how to use Uzis or other automatic weapons because it's not a reasonable or rational thing to do. It's not as if this is even a one-off, as it was only a few years back that an eight year old boy was killed when using an Uzi at a gun show. Even accepting that guns are part of US culture this is ridiculous - it would be like giving a child a bottle of Absinthe to teach them about alcohol. One should always question the values of society to see where improvements can be made.

 

Why is it that restrictions are in place for substances like alcohol and tobacco yet not for firearms?

 

I think it goes without saying that giving a 9 year old girl an Uzi is incredibly stupid, especially a full auto one.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Sure you do.  You have people in countries teaching kids not only to use a weapon, but also how to train and fight and kill people at a young age.  Some are even turned in to suicide bomber

Exactly, the only countries that have similar policies are failed states in the Middle East. You're making my point for me.

[Skiver Veteran]

Exactly, the only countries that have similar policies are failed states in the Middle East. You're making my point for me.

 

Yes and no, you're point was that no other country does this... Techbeck just pointed out they do. Unfortunately it's not the best of examples and certainly not something you want to base a justification on  :rofl:

 

I think I'll need our American friends to back me up with an assumption here but I would like to know. As an American, when you reach the legal age for owning a gun and passing all the backgroun checks and Ignoring the finer details of how to obtain a gun and state laws etc. Could I go out and buy ANY gun I wanted (also granted I don't fully appreciate the range that is available)? So for example, could I go out and buy a 9mm OR one of the bigger assult rifles OR a hunting rifle etc as my first gun?

 

What I'm trying to get at here is, is it better to train people on how to handle a gun (ignoring the stupid case of giving a 9yo an Uzi) before they are legally allowed to own one rather than letting these children grow into an adult, making a stupid weapon choice and then killing themselves or someone else when they attempt to use it without any sort of training?

[spenser.d]

Yes and no, you're point was that no other country does this... Techbeck just pointed out they do. Unfortunately it's not the best of examples and certainly not something you want to base a justification on :rofl:

I think I'll need our American friends to back me up with an assumption here but I would like to know. As an American, when you reach the legal age for owning a gun and passing all the backgroun checks and Ignoring the finer details of how to obtain a gun and state laws etc. Could I go out and buy ANY gun I wanted (also granted I don't fully appreciate the range that is available)? So for example, could I go out and buy a 9mm OR one of the bigger assult rifles OR a hunting rifle etc as my first gun?

What I'm trying to get at here is, is it better to train people on how to handle a gun (ignoring the stupid case of giving a 9yo an Uzi) before they are legally allowed to own one rather than letting these children grow into an adult, making a stupid weapon choice and then killing themselves or someone else when they attempt to use it without any sort of training?

No its not better because people are less likely to start using guns as adults if they didn't start as children. Which brings me back to my point about how our gun culture is insane. If we didn't feel like guns were just okay and a normal thing to do and have, especially as kids, there would be less of them and we wouldn't see these kinds of accidents.

[techbeck]

I think I'll need our American friends to back me up with an assumption here but I would like to know. As an American, when you reach the legal age for owning a gun and passing all the backgroun checks and Ignoring the finer details of how to obtain a gun and state laws etc. Could I go out and buy ANY gun I wanted (also granted I don't fully appreciate the range that is available)? So for example, could I go out and buy a 9mm OR one of the bigger assult rifles OR a hunting rifle etc as my first gun?

 

DocM would probably be the best to answer this but I dont think there is any restrictions on what gun you can buy as your first.  I know there are some banned weapons, but dont think there is any restrictions.

[Skiver Veteran]

No its not better because people are less likely to start using guns as adults if they didn't start as children. Which brings me back to my point about how our gun culture is insane. If we didn't feel like guns were just okay and a normal thing to do and have, especially as kids, there would be less of them and we wouldn't see these kinds of accidents.

 

I'm not sure I fully agree, There are lots of things you don't own or do as a child but do once your an adult, so why are guns any different?

 

I agree with your second point though, if guns weren't looked at as they currently are then there may be less. However gun policy seems to be a very big thing (at least from what the media reports) so maybe that is going to change. I don't see it happening over night but It seems more people are questioning guns and their part in life more than they used to.

[DocM]

I think I'll need our American friends to back me up with an assumpti9on here but I would like to know. As an American, when you reach the legal age for owning a gun and passing all the backgroun checks and Ignoring the finer details of how to obtain a gun and state laws etc. Could I go out and buy ANY gun I wanted

>

I'll try. Anyone who spots as an error please correct as I'm a bit tired.

Of course there is the 2nd Amendment, part of our Bill of Rights which allows the ownership and use of firearms, especially in self-defense. That's a first principle which is settled law.

The federal govt through legislation and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF, or ATF for short) regulates their sales. Generally speaking; you fill out a purchase form and you can under regular federal law purchase a rifle or shotgun at age 18. On that form you have to affirm you are not disqualified under the law; criminal background, serious mental illness etc.

The FBI maintains the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) which is used by 30 states, 5 territories and Washington DC at the point of sale to double check the forms accuracy. If you lied on the form and the system catches it you're in deep doo-doo.

20 states either use their own background check system (vast majority) or don't check, leaving it up to the feds to deal with it. That needs to change IMO. They also need to make psychiatrists and psychologists mandatory reporters, which medical privacy laws now restrict.

To purchase a handgun or tactical shotgun (shorter than specific stock & barrel lengths) you must be 21. A firearm like a semi-automatic UZI or MAC-10 is treated as a handgun because they use handgun rounds - typically 9mm. No real difference in function, mostly looks and accessory mounts.

In most all states even though you may not buy a handgun until 21, you can possess one legally loaned or given to you as a gift by a legal purchaser at 18.

To purchase a Class 3 weapon (full automatic rifle or submachine gun (sub means pistol caliber), grenades, gatlting gun (BFG), or whatever you must be 21 and go through a storm of paperwork with ATF, a bureaucratic anal exam and pay a special tax. Few people do this. Mostly collectors.

Interestingly - black powder firearms are exempt under federal law, but may be restricted under state law.

Provided that all other laws are complied with, you may temporarily borrow or rent a firearm for lawful purposes under federal law. States may adjust this. As such, as a young hunter I could use my father's rifle or shotgun (which was really mine as a gift but secured by him.)

Legal resident foreigners can purchase firearms, including handguns, in most states.

A few states limit magazine capacity to 8-10 rounds, but it's pretty silly given how fast mags can be changed. Push a button the old one drops, push in the new one and hit the action lock to rock n roll.

[Defcon]

For those who support this, why don't you also trin your kids to handle knives and other deadly weapons, teach them how to kill, how to handle explosives and poisons? All these things are potential life savers, right?

 

Lets just call it what it is, another way to justify this country's endless fascination with guns and resisting all attempts at logic.

 

"I'll teach my kid to handle a deadly automatic assault weapon capable of mass murder because they can save my life" is just aboiut the most retarded reasoning possible.

[DocM]

My kids learned how to use an atlatl (spear thrower**) and bow at about 8, the boys a crossbow at ~12 and all of them had pocket knives at about the same age. Atlatl is a growing sport, and archery (hunting and target) is off the charts in the US - including crossbows. You can buy a compound bow sized for kids in most large department stores.

My 14 y/o grandson, who is also proficient with rifle and shotgun. Not unusual in these parts.

I learned explosives at about 13 because on a farm you sometimes have to blow tree stumps/roots before plowing a newly cleared patch. Dynamite, ANFO etc. and my uncle taught all the cousins, boys and girls, how to make detonators. He also taught us how to use thermite to weld a tractors engine block or other farm gear.

** Ann Arbor MI atlatl range. Note the kids. Projectiles run from arrow size to 8 feet.

http://youtu.be/1lE9qQCGdvY

[trag3dy]

For those who support this, why don't you also trin your kids to handle knives and other deadly weapons, teach them how to kill, how to handle explosives and poisons? All these things are potential life savers, right?

 

Lets just call it what it is, another way to justify this country's endless fascination with guns and resisting all attempts at logic.

 

"I'll teach my kid to handle a deadly automatic assault weapon capable of mass murder because they can save my life" is just aboiut the most retarded reasoning possible.

 

You're more than a little exaggerating there and it doesn't help your argument any. A 9 year old girl using an uzi is not a typical situation nor should it be, I think most people can agree on that.

 

And the argument is that there is no harm in teaching a child proper firearm safety and respect. You're trying to make out like we're saying it's okay to train them to become cold blooded killers. Geez.

 

Using and/or learning about guns and killing things with them are not mutually exclusive.

[chrisj1968]

sorry but a kid should not be touching any weapons

 

I disagree. I had my hunters safety class and first hunting license at 12. I was a scrawny kid at 12 and was blasting dove on SEPT 1st for hunting season with a 12 Gauge. accidents happen because people aren't careful or mindful.

[DocM]

I shot a 200+ lb deer at 12 with a Winchester 1894 30-30. Took small game with a .22 and a Savage/Stevens Fox 20 gauge shotgun.

Now Michigan has no lower age limit for mentored (directly supervised) youth hunters.

[Defcon]

You're more than a little exaggerating there and it doesn't help your argument any. A 9 year old girl using an uzi is not a typical situation nor should it be, I think most people can agree on that.

 

And the argument is that there is no harm in teaching a child proper firearm safety and respect. You're trying to make out like we're saying it's okay to train them to become cold blooded killers. Geez.

 

Using and/or learning about guns and killing things with them are not mutually exclusive.

I very much disagree with this statement you made, and it basically captures everything wrong with attitudes towards guns in the US. Do you think only the US has hunters or people worried about their safety? Many other countries have these issues, what they don't have is the extremely relaxed attitude towards guns we have, and the stupid 'guns don't kill people' argument.

 

If children need to be in a situation where they need to handle guns (which itself should be very rare) then their parents should teach them how to handle. Having schools and instructors in urban areas, shooting ranges, easy access to firearms, this is all part of the problem.

 

Learning to use guns should be the exception, it shouldn't be the norm the way people treat it here. Unless you are a soldier/LEO/hunter who kills for food, NOT sport, you shouldn't have access to any firearms, period.

[trag3dy]

I very much disagree with this statement you made, and it basically captures everything wrong with attitudes towards guns in the US. Do you think only the US has hunters or people worried about their safety? Many other countries have these issues, what they don't have is the extremely relaxed attitude towards guns we have, and the stupid 'guns don't kill people' argument.

 

If children need to be in a situation where they need to handle guns (which itself should be very rare) then their parents should teach them how to handle. Having schools and instructors in urban areas, shooting ranges, easy access to firearms, this is all part of the problem.

 

Learning to use guns should be the exception, it shouldn't be the norm the way people treat it here. Unless you are a soldier/LEO/hunter who kills for food, NOT sport, you shouldn't have access to any firearms, period.

 

So basically the only reason kids shouldn't be exposed to guns is because you don't like them. Gotcha.

 

I'm still not seeing why kids shouldn't be or can't be taught gun safety and respect.

 

Kids handle guns every day in rural areas of the county and you don't hear about it. I wonder why.

[Dick Montage]

Because part of gun safety is taking your kid to a gun safety class,

 

Well... That sure went well didn't it...