LAPD Officers Shoot Man Five Times in Broad Daylight

[Skiver Veteran]

You can clearly hear the officer shout 'let go of the gun! gun!" before shooting him.

If the homeless guy went for his weapon and actually drew it and aimed it at the officers, then the cop that fired off 5 shots had every right to do it. 

However 1 well aimed headshot would of done the trick. Wasted 4 bullets

 

Again, I'm sure someone will correct me here. but I believe training dictates body shots and multiple shots. Its great to put someone down in one, but with a smaller target you are more likely to miss. I know at such a close proximity that chance is reduced but it would show they are following training by taking the body shots.

[Nagisan]

OK, but 6 guns pointing at him wouldn't have had the same effect?

I would assume I'd be out gunned, further prolonging the standoff would result in a shooting in which I would lose, regardless of whether I get a shot off or not, also don't police officers have training on disarming overpowered subjects?

You are also assuming the man in the video was making rational and correct assumptions.

 

It's easy to say "I would assume....", but if you were actually in a situation where you found yourself fighting off six people, you are NOT going to make the best judgement calls. The situation was too hectic and quick to assume anyone would make any proper judgement calls.

[IceBreakerG]

It's the Uncle Jimbo Rule:  Just yell "he's going for my gun" (doesn't matter if you have 4 - 5 people there to help you hold him down or someone else has a taser or if he's actually not going for the gun at all), and you're free to kill.

[adrynalyne]

Either he has the gun, or he doesn't. Saying "He's going for my gun", doesn't give them the right to shoot. Saying "He has my gun", does. If you're the cop and you see him grabbing gun, then you can easily put you hand on it since you're the guy on top.

Also, I thought holsters were made to pull the weapon straight out so no one could grab from an angle?

Actually, if he was going for his weapon, he absolutely does have the right to shoot.

 

I love how people think that cops should be at the precipice of death  before they are allowed to discharge their weapons.  

[IceBreakerG]

You are also assuming the man in the video was making rational and correct assumptions.

 

It's easy to say "I would assume....", but if you were actually in a situation where you found yourself fighting off six people, you are NOT going to make the best judgement calls. The situation was too hectic and quick to assume anyone would make any proper judgement calls.

 

Also from the article:

 

 

 

Witnesses told the Times that the man killed was known locally as "Africa," and had apparently been living in a tent on Skid Row for a number of months "after spending a long stretch in a mental health facility."

[The Evil Overlord]

Actually, if he was going for his weapon, he absolutely does have the right to shoot.

I love how people think that cops should be at the precipice of death before they are allowed to discharge their weapons.

I didn't for a second think they had to be at the 'precipice of death' I was asking as there were a lot of officers presant at the time, so was this an a good example of a last resort measure..

There responses I have been given so far would indicate, even if they are unsure, someone will take a couple of minutes to try and explain a situation how they interpret it.

This is something I do like about this forum, a lot, and commend anyone who is prepared to answer in a reasonable manner.

[DocM]

Again, I'm sure someone will correct me here. but I believe training dictates body shots and multiple shots.

Yup. Center of Mass (the largest target, most likely to hit) and a 2-3 shot volley. 2 cops x 1 volley each covers this incident.

...and Its great to put someone down in one, but with a smaller target you are more likely to miss. I know at such a close proximity that chance is reduced but it would show they are following training by taking the body shots.

Bingo.

[The Evil Overlord]

ok....  stop you green pacifist idiotic no responsibility jerks!  Simple rules to live by and you will actually LIVE:!!!

 

1. Don't sell illegal substances. 

2. Don't be an ass to other people or attack them and become a threat.

3. DO NOT fight with police, they are here to kill you if you mess with them...and WE hired them to do that.

4. DO NOT FIGHT WITH POLICE!

5. Cant stress this enough, but take responsibility for your own damn actions.  I don't care if it was 10 vs 1, or 1 vs 1, the second you don't obey an officer(s) request, you become a threat, and in their eyes, a threat they have to rid at times by force..which leads to YOU being dead.

 

simple people...next!!!

So in your eyes, the police is just there to kill if they're disobeyed?

[adrynalyne]

I didn't for a second think they had to be at the 'precipice of death' I was asking as there were a lot of officers presant at the time, so was this an a good example of a last resort measure..

There responses I have been given so far would indicate, even if they are unsure, someone will take a couple of minutes to try and explain a situation how they interpret it.

This is something I do like about this forum, a lot, and commend anyone who is prepared to answer in a reasonable manner.

A bullet does not discriminate on how many officers were there.  Wrestling for a gun is just as easy to kill a person if 1 police officer is there, or 20.  Or perhaps the bullet  strays and strikes a mother or a child.

So in your eyes, the police is just there to kill if they're disobeyed?

Now add the claim here:  the dude went for a cop's side arm.

 

Not a clear answer anymore.

[DocM]

So in your eyes, the police is just there to kill if they're disobeyed?

Fighting them, and grabbing for the officers firearm, are several levels up from simply disobeying and clearly aggression. Not smart.

[The Evil Overlord]

A bullet does not discriminate on how many officers were there. Wrestling for a gun is just as easy to kill a person if 1 police officer is there, or 20. Or perhaps the bullet strays and strikes a mother or a child.

I have tried to avoid going in that direction, it's easy to say what if he shot this guys mother or child or that guys mother or child.

I have some knowledge of ballistics, in so much as I am aware of what a bullet can do to a target, be the target inanimate or live, my initial question was about police training on a situation like this, UK police aren't armed, so a 6 on one scenario of police on an assailant can be common if said situation requires it, they're trained to restrain by pinning, and immobilising limbs, if needed, pepper spray and tasers, armed responses are only used when dealing with armed assailants.

Now I know the police in the USA is armed, and understand why, but before the altercation escalated into the shooting, the assailant was throwing fists, and I was caught off guard as I was expecting the police to pin him down, face down, this why I asked about restraining methods and training.

Fighting them, and grabbing for the officers firearm, are several levels up from simply disobeying and clearly aggression. Not smart.

Oh I have no dispute, I know the other user posted just to be the very thing he called others in his post.

My original question (I think) is better phrased above

[technord]

I had typed an essay about this, but then thought....meh, it's America

[IceBreakerG]

It also seems like a lot of you are missing the part where several of the officers were distracted by the woman that picked up the other officer's knight stick.  At that point, it was no longer 5 cops on 1 person, more like 2-3, and it looked like at least one of them were distracted by that incident as well.

[sc302 Veteran]

I usually don't post in these but I will this time.

 

Anybody can be a monday morning quarter back and say what they could have done or would have done.  The issue is that whatever training you have, the event happen in seconds.  You cannot go through every possible scenario and be cool headed and think clearly every second, a lot of it is gut reaction.  If you want to live and are in the face of authority be complacent, they will not shoot you for being complacent/submissive.  Know your rights, do not resist arrest, do not attack, do not go for anything hidden on your body without explaining exactly what is happening and moving at a slow rate.  Many gun owners know more about the firearms they keep on their person than the officer, many can even take apart their gun and put back together blind folded (there are competitions for doing this).  Why isn't anyone saying that the dead guy should have been complacent, why is the focus on the cops that pulled the trigger?  If he was docile/complacent/submissive this issue would not have occurred and there wouldn't be news. 

 

If I was in a situation where I was going to live or die based on my actions, I would not push my luck and try to resist unless I had a ace that would get me out of that without altercation...maybe like a hundred or so snipers aimed at their heads or someone with a big ass rocket launcher aimed at them, but that isn't real life....Real life says, police are an authority figure (people may or may not like that) and need to be respected as well as listened to when instruction is given to us...they have been given the ability to hurt us if needed, if we make a move in the wrong direction force will be given.  If we show that we are intended or are using deadly force they are going to use the same. 

 

 

I will be with all of the cop haters when there is a shooting where the cops shot a guy even when he was submissive...If they put him on the ground, restrained him, then shot him....that would be news and a conversation worth having.  All of these resisting arrest and have the potential of deadly force, yeah the guy deserves to die for being a bit on the stupid side of things.

[Zinomian]

So in your eyes, the police is just there to kill if they're disobeyed?

 

If I behave in a way that they feel threaten ...... YES!  

 

Since when do we need to question authority at every step? Follow the rules......

 

(this does open up to poor behavior and iligal police practices and abuse, however, i say take your beating, have someone video it or simply report it, then sue them for a few million and be happy....also get the officer arrested and fired).

 

This particular case to me fits the rule of not following police orders, etc, etc, etc......

 

Police arent angels, i know that, but people arent either....have some dignity and act and take responsibility for your own actions.

[ramesees]

Since when do we need to question authority at every step? Follow the rules......

 

(this does open up to poor behavior and iligal police practices and abuse, however, i say take your beating, have someone video it or simply report it, then sue them for a few million and be happy....also get the officer arrested and fired).

 

Spoken like a "good little citizen"^TM 

 

Authority is to be questioned if it is being used to stifle or censor or destroy.

 

As for the rest of your post - "take your beating and then sue" ?? Seriously that's your plan if this happens ?

 

Unbelievable.

[+Warwagon MVC]

The cop Pent tapped him! (It's like Double tap, but instead of 2 it's 5)

[+LogicalApex MVC]

I usually don't post in these but I will this time.

 

Anybody can be a monday morning quarter back and say what they could have done or would have done.  The issue is that whatever training you have, the event happen in seconds.  You cannot go through every possible scenario and be cool headed and think clearly every second, a lot of it is gut reaction.  If you want to live and are in the face of authority be complacent, they will not shoot you for being complacent/submissive.  Know your rights, do not resist arrest, do not attack, do not go for anything hidden on your body without explaining exactly what is happening and moving at a slow rate.  Many gun owners know more about the firearms they keep on their person than the officer, many can even take apart their gun and put back together blind folded (there are competitions for doing this).  Why isn't anyone saying that the dead guy should have been complacent, why is the focus on the cops that pulled the trigger?  If he was docile/complacent/submissive this issue would not have occurred and there wouldn't be news. 

 

If I was in a situation where I was going to live or die based on my actions, I would not push my luck and try to resist unless I had a ace that would get me out of that without altercation...maybe like a hundred or so snipers aimed at their heads or someone with a big ass rocket launcher aimed at them, but that isn't real life....Real life says, police are an authority figure (people may or may not like that) and need to be respected as well as listened to when instruction is given to us...they have been given the ability to hurt us if needed, if we make a move in the wrong direction force will be given.  If we show that we are intended or are using deadly force they are going to use the same. 

 

 

I will be with all of the cop haters when there is a shooting where the cops shot a guy even when he was submissive...If they put him on the ground, restrained him, then shot him....that would be news and a conversation worth having.  All of these resisting arrest and have the potential of deadly force, yeah the guy deserves to die for being a bit on the stupid side of things.

To question the actions of any government official, even when they may be acting appropriately, is expected in a democracy. We should criticize government and its actors as often as we can in an effort to ensure they are doing the best job they can do and to ensure we're giving them the tools needed to meet our needs. I agree with the sentiment that police should have better training on how to deal with suspects without their guns being the sole tool they reach for. We need to ensure that police are arresting with as high a frequency as possible so that assumed criminals can be placed before a court, as our constitution requires.

 

Police should go through extensive training without having access to their weapons. They should be required to be experts at dealing with the worst possible encounters while being disarmed. Police have a very dangerous job and at times using their arms are without a doubt required, but lack of training leads to them being used far more often than needed in the US. This is something we should review and adjust. Even though cops today are acting as they are trained that doesn't negate our duty to adjust when needed.

 

Also, I am very much against the prevailing idea of "compliance" at all costs with police. Of course, non-compliance with police can be a risky road to go down, but police are no supposed to be judge, jury, and executioner. Non-compliance with government actors is a fundamental component of our structure of government... And for good reason, police can do illegal actions to. Those illegal actions should not be complied with by citizens...

 

For instance, take a major case that has lead to a Grand Jury indictment of two Philadelphia police officers. They pulled up to a guy on a motorized scooter and told him to get off the scooter, essentially. He was aware that these two officers tend to run around beating people up so he drove off due to being afraid. When those cops caught up with him they beat him horrifically. Including a cop using his baton to knock the guy off his scooter while driving alongside him. The only saving grace for the victim was the security camera on a local business which caught the violence by the officers.

 

Police are not Gods and shouldn't be treated as such. Generally speaking, complying with the police is the best course of action, but non-compliance in and of itself doesn't justify whatever happens to you at the hands of police.

[The Evil Overlord]

If I behave in a way that they feel threaten ...... YES!  

 

Since when do we need to question authority at every step? Follow the rules......

 

(this does open up to poor behavior and iligal police practices and abuse, however, i say take your beating, have someone video it or simply report it, then sue them for a few million and be happy....also get the officer arrested and fired).

 

This particular case to me fits the rule of not following police orders, etc, etc, etc......

 

Police arent angels, i know that, but people arent either....have some dignity and act and take responsibility for your own actions.

fair enough, for the record, I still believe, further training would benefit not only the US Police, but Police around the world, however, as a law abiding citizen, I do understand the 'behave like a law abiding citizen and you have nothing to worry about' part of your post

[HeartsOfWar]

I try not to jump to conclusions, but this video clearly shows several mistakes leading to the shooting:

 

1. The suspect is reacting violent towards multiple cops which makes his actions very irrational.

2. At the beginning of the video there is an officer with his baton in his hand just outside the scuffle. I am assuming this officer previously was in the scuffle, lost his baton, and went to retrieve it; however, when he noticed the suspect becoming more violent he drops the baton. Proper protocol would have been to secure the baton instead of discarding it.

3. The same officer then trys to draw his gun, fails, and re-joins the fight as the suspect moves closer to him by grabbing the suspect from behind.

4. The same officer trys to get two punches in (one as he flips the guy around after grabbing from behind and the second just after the suspect loses balance and falls to the ground) before the officer jumps on top of him and starts yelling for someone to get his baton. Proper protocol would be on subduing the suspect face down and not trying to throw punches

5. Unfortunately, you can clearly see for a brief instant around 15 to 16.1s that the suspect does put his hand on the handle of the officers gun and try to pull up partially lifting the officer. (it's very quick and you have to look, but it does happen).

 

I feel the officer that dropped his baton and attempted to throw punches should be punished for breaking protocol, but without knowing how the scuffle started, whether the suspect instigated or the cops, I would say thus far it is a shooting that I would defend the rest of the cops on.

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

from the video, it's clear that the homeless man attacked the officers.

 

It is?! You must've been watching another video then???

 

From the video the black cop first dropped his baton which the woman picked up, then he dropped his own gun behind him, presumably because he hadn't used his holster clip, he noticed his gun wasn't in it's holster and starts shouting "He has my gun!" believing the suspect had it so the rest of them just unloaded their clips into him.

Gross stupidity and incompetence leaving yet another unarmed man dead

[HeartsOfWar]

It is?! You must've been watching another video then???

 

From the video the black cop first dropped his baton which the woman picked up, then he dropped his own gun behind him, presumably because he hadn't used his holster clip, he noticed his gun wasn't in it's holster and starts shouting "He has my gun!" believing the suspect had it so the rest of them just unloaded their clips into him.

Gross stupidity and incompetence leaving yet another unarmed man dead

 

- He did not drop his gun; yes, something was dropped, but it was not his gun. You can see the suspect grabbing for and holding onto the gun handle in the cops holster while on the ground at 15s. You can also see the cop take his gun out of the holster, check it and begin pointing at the dead suspect while the item you thought was his gun is still on the ground.

[sc302 Veteran]

To question the actions of any government official, even when they may be acting appropriately, is expected in a democracy. We should criticize government and its actors as often as we can in an effort to ensure they are doing the best job they can do and to ensure we're giving them the tools needed to meet our needs. I agree with the sentiment that police should have better training on how to deal with suspects without their guns being the sole tool they reach for. We need to ensure that police are arresting with as high a frequency as possible so that assumed criminals can be placed before a court, as our constitution requires.

There is a time and a place.  Questioning an officer when he is questioning your existence for being there or doing what you are doing is not the place for it.  We should criticize government when we can, no question about that.  Police have a lot of training, but there is a lot that cannot be trained for.    Watch this video and question why did the get shot in the first scenario and why did the preacher shoot in the second scenario, police go through this ever 6 months and it is more vigorous and has a lot more scenarios.  If you can't figure out why the preacher got shot in the first scenario, it is simple he doesn't want to hurt anyone (like most people) he wants to settle this without the use of force and wants to be kind and open minded (like most monday morning quarterbacks like to do and even he likes to do after the fact.  Why did the preacher shoot in the second scenario, he feels his life is in danger and learned from the first scenario that in a split second you will loose your life so he is going to shoot.  In a situation that can escalate quickly, stay calm when in the presence of authority and be complacent.  If you have an issue with what is being done, you will have your time in court.

 

 

Police should go through extensive training without having access to their weapons. They should be required to be experts at dealing with the worst possible encounters while being disarmed. Police have a very dangerous job and at times using their arms are without a doubt required, but lack of training leads to them being used far more often than needed in the US. This is something we should review and adjust. Even though cops today are acting as they are trained that doesn't negate our duty to adjust when needed.

They go through hand to hand combat training.  But if you watch the video above, you don't know what is going to come at you and it takes less than a second for someone to pull a weapon out and start using it.  By the time a person realizes that another person has a weapon out and they start using it and your weapon is holstered, you are dead or severely hurt.  You have no time to think about the situation.  I think this is the problem with all of the monday morning quarterbacks, they have no clue the reaction time required to be able to deduce a life threatening situation to a non life threatening.  Let me post another video...try to stop that guy from killing you (you barely saw him pull out his gun), while that guy is an expert shot (and a bit full of himself), situations happen that fast.  When they start making robocops that can take a knife or a bullet at first, then we can say things like they shouldn't have used their guns.

 

 

Also, I am very much against the prevailing idea of "compliance" at all costs with police. Of course, non-compliance with police can be a risky road to go down, but police are no supposed to be judge, jury, and executioner. Non-compliance with government actors is a fundamental component of our structure of government... And for good reason, police can do illegal actions to. Those illegal actions should not be complied with by citizens...

 

On the street, it isn't the place for you to state what should and should not happen, it is happening, it is happening to you, and it is happening at a very fast pace.  It is not your place to argue with the officer at the time, you are not the judge, jury, or executioner either (if that is the case I am robbing a bank, and it is legal for me to do so, nothing the cops say or any rules apply to me, so f the police --- yes there is a bit of sarcasm in that to show how it could go in the reverse mindset).  They are there to uphold the law, if they are there or questioning you it is because they believe that you aren't doing something right.  If you believe they are in the wrong, don't start an argument there, take your licks then take them to court (that is what the court system is for, that is when you get to face a judge for your actions, then get sentenced or are let free).

[COKid]

The common theme from most of these recent episodes is that someone resisted arrest. To be perfectly frank, I have been arrested several times in my life, mostly as a juvie. Thing is, I never resisted. I'm not sure why that concept is so hard for some folks to comprehend. Don't resist, and if the cops cross the line, sue the city for millions. It's happened multiple times with the Denver PD in the last few years.

 

You wanna win, just take your beating. You'll be a rich man later.

 

 

[Deviate_X]

all over a tent. a man is dead all over a tent....

 

6-7 officers against one man? no way... murder outright

 

It is gross incompetence really. Unfortunately there are too many people prepared to immediately defend this death, and accept it.