thinktank Neowin Think Tank: Mars Colony One (and Two ... and Three ... and ... )

[The Evil Overlord]

With regard to habitat can we not make the initial housings like the old wagon trains in that it is not statical but with onboard reactors and solar panels able to be driven across the area?

http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/tri-athlete-lunar-vehicle-prototype.html

The Tri-ATHLETE vehicle is the second generation of a wheel-on-limb vehicle being developed to support the return of humans to the lunar surface. This paper describes the design, assembly, and test of the Tri-ATHLETE robotic system with a specific emphasis on the limb joint actuators. The design and implementation of the structural components is discussed, and a novel and low cost approach to approximating flight-like cabling is also presented. The paper concludes with a discussion of the

[The Evil Overlord]

You man a Mars mothership,could we do a Space Elevator?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

I was thinking of throwing that in for consideration, nice find

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Another possible transport device for Mars atmosphere.....

 

[DocM]

Dragons would have to make a one-way ride. Not enough propellant capacity to launch themselves back. Just a cargo-robotics can.

The MCT lander is expected to have crew and cargo variants, both with self-launch ERV (Earth return vehicle) capability. I'd expect a super-sized cross between Zubrin's Mars Direct, the later Mars For Less and Dragon 2.

Mars for Less (MFL) ERV concept

No need for an orbital spare - extra ERVs would be there from early pre-positioning logistical flights. Before the first crew left Earth they'd be waiting full of goods with their Sabatier reactors already gassing them up.

Also, Musk has said each Mars window would see a "fleet" of vehicles leaving Earth for Mars. This has been parsed as multiple vehicles, likely having the ability to transfer passengers from one to another if one has a problem (systems, propulsion, MMOD strike) in transit.

As stated, we should know more later this year when they've stated they'll clarify their Mars architecture.

[Blue-Vision]

Ahhh ... So SpaceX (and likely most of the other NewSpace companies in some sort of unannounced agreement) are already on-point. Chances are very good that they've already got new hardware on the drawing board that we haven't heard about yet for these very purposes.

 

They're gonna shock the world -- in a good way.

 

Let's help them out. They're gonna need all the neurons, data, procedures and good ideas they can get. Maybe we'll come up with a critical piece that they haven't thought of that could save the day, who knows. It's nice to imagine that some saps on an Internet Forum like us could contribute to something this ?important.

 

It's just as likely they don't know who the heck we are, and don't care. 

[Draggendrop Veteran]

I won this off "Scotty" in a card game....can we use it.....

 

[Blue-Vision]

I won this off "Scotty" in a card game....can we use it.....

 

galileo-shuttlecraft-restor.jpg

I wish. 

[DocM]

Something else to consider is the MarsBase 10 concept presented by Thomas Sinn of U. of Strathglyde in Glasgow and Ondrej Doule of NASA Ames at AIAA 2012.

Less so the aerocapture and landing, mainly how it deploys an expandable (think Bigelow tech) habitat from a Super-Dragon like spacecraft.

http://spacearchitect.org/pubs/AIAA-2012-3557.pdf

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Another interesting site....due east of Hellas....this is the second deepest crater next to Hellas...

 

Argyre Planitia...centered at 50S and 316E 

 

1) over 1,100 miles wide and gradual drop to 5 miles deep

2) slow cooled volcanoe, once a lake....estimated to be a large mineral deposit area

3) lots of eskers

4) same temp as Hellas

5) glacier activity as well...need to track best evidence...want photo's......but it is in glacier area

6) "Happy Face" crater next door on edge of this area....Galle Crater

7) Smaller crater at top center may have a large remnant of a meteor.....ooooh

8) the largest volcanoes on mars are NE of here...Olympus mons and the Tharsis 3

[Draggendrop Veteran]

The Mar's Reconnaissence Orbiter (radar and cam) came across a #### load of water....in the northern and southern mid latitudes. These comprise  glaciers.....and a mess of frozen water in craters and old river channels...they are covered by martian dust which preserves them. 

 

We may need to adapt to processing water with this dust cover....cling on's

 

This will take me a while as we want deep slow cooling area's for mineral content and accessibility.... all near this water....

 

And people were questioning if water on Mars........Duhhhhhhh!

 

example....

[Blue-Vision]

DD, these may be the Droids we're looking for. What coordinates, please? I'd like a look around myself and get some datasheets on the area.

 

[EDIT] Actually, the above area looks familiar. I was looking at that area last night, if I recall correctly. Acidalia Planitia around 40-60N and 10-30E?

[AnotherITguy]

Ok, i'm back, after restoring my server.... anyways, instead of bringing the germs that the mars colonizers may or may not have, how about if we add a module in the iss as a quarantine module of sorts, and have the shorty short wearing nurses that someone mentioned earlier tend to our colonizers before they re-enter the earth?

[Blue-Vision]

Ok, i'm back, after restoring my server.... anyways, instead of bringing the germs that the mars colonizers may or may not have, how about if we add a module in the iss as a quarantine module of sorts, and have the shorty short wearing nurses that someone mentioned earlier tend to our colonizers before they re-enter the earth?

 

That was DD's suggestion (I think), and that's not a bad idea. It would certainly save money in the budget.

 

 

Another interesting site....due east of Hellas....this is the second deepest crater next to Hellas...

 

Argyre Planitia...centered at 50S and 316E 

 

1) over 1,100 miles wide and gradual drop to 5 miles deep

2) slow cooled volcanoe, once a lake....estimated to be a large mineral deposit area

3) lots of eskers

4) same temp as Hellas

5) glacier activity as well...need to track best evidence...want photo's......but it is in glacier area

6) "Happy Face" crater next door on edge of this area....Galle Crater

7) Smaller crater at top center may have a large remnant of a meteor.....ooooh

8) the largest volcanoes on mars are NE of here...Olympus mons and the Tharsis 3

That area shows some promise too. I like this one better:

 

 

The Mar's Reconnaissence Orbiter (radar and cam) came across a #### load of water....in the northern and southern mid latitudes. These comprise  glaciers.....and a mess of frozen water in craters and old river channels...they are covered by martian dust which preserves them. 

 

We may need to adapt to processing water with this dust cover....cling on's

 

This will take me a while as we want deep slow cooling area's for mineral content and accessibility.... all near this water....

 

And people were questioning if water on Mars........Duhhhhhhh!

 

example....

Mars-ices.jpg

That whole area. Look at all that sapphire. I've got tabs open on USGS Mars Maps (who knew they'd be the ones to have the best data on Mars?), will share when I have something to share. Another Gold Star added to DD's growing pile.

 

Something else to consider is the MarsBase 10 concept presented by Thomas Sinn of U. of Strathglyde in Glasgow and Ondrej Doule of NASA Ames at AIAA 2012.

Less so the aerocapture and landing, mainly how it deploys an expandable (think Bigelow tech) habitat from a Super-Dragon like spacecraft.

http://spacearchitect.org/pubs/AIAA-2012-3557.pdf

DIG IT. Let's use these! Combination Spacecraft, Landers and Habs! Genius! Nice find, Doc! Gold star added to your already mountainous pile!

[Blue-Vision]

Okay, folks. I present for peer review a Candidate CoS Site. This is one I've been doing a ton of research on since Wednesday evening when I was so rudely ignoring company. 

 

 

This site seems to have it all. At first glance, it would seem to be bone dry according to the Water Equivalent Hydrogen Abundance Scan performed by Mars Odyssey over a 1 1/2 year stretch from 2002-2003 ...

 

 

But according to the Global Neutron Scan ...

 

 

It's locked up in the soil, indicating a large, nascent H2O reservoir in that area, enough water to fill Lake Michigan twice.

 

This is the same area that showed a decent amount of Thorium present as well. Not as good as others, but decent. Where there is Thorium, there's bound to be lots of other minerological goodies around too.

 

Geologically the area is interesting. The elevation is fairly low, around 3-4km below zero level. Lots of flat terrain, but some escarpments nearby to deflect the worst dust devils northward. Should not be especially rocky in the area either. A large crater to the northeast, and to the extreme Northeast is Lyot Crater. Several smaller craters in the immediate vicinity available for study. Nothing terribly unusual about the area other than the very good indications of H2O and Minerology.

 

It's just what we need.

 

Rip it apart!

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Just a side note....

 

green red energy......solar arrays........wind turbines........geothermal, ie: glycol furnace, bore a narrow well head and use temperature differential from above ground and below the surface, 15 degrees will work with scroll compressor, heating/cooling this way.

 

Fuel drops to surface for V2+ liftoff, until we get a fuel refiner running.....

[The Evil Overlord]

Once manned, I was thinking about the type of space suits needed, Specifically, I remember seeing a design that only used a bandage type of material underneath the outer 'overalls', so full pressurisation wouldn't be necessary, (of course some sort of joint system would also be needed) but the reduced weight might add mobility, seeing as the user would still need to carry their air supply on their backs.

[DocM]

Dava Newman of MIT, now Deputy Director of NASA, has been developing the BioSuit. It's one example of what they call a Space Activity Suit (SAS), which have been in development since 1959.

D.D. Newman in her BioSuit

[The Evil Overlord]

^ That's the one

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Here is a rough shake down for Mars.....

 

1) On Earth, in colder area's, I'll use the arctic since I have experience there,...daily temperature differentials are not usually more than 35C any season. On Mars, it is 70C to 90C.......that is one brutal temperature shock for equipment in one day.

 

2) The Martian year is almost 2 of ours...and...its actually not 4 seasons.....short combo summer/fall and all winter

 

3) Baseline temperature 0C to -20C  warm to -80C....extremes are 20C to -101C at equator......-125C at poles

 

4) Planets tilt means cold and long winters in the southern hemisphere...therefore 30S is worse than 30N latitude...

 

5) Higher latitudes to both poles get severe dust storms, dust devils and debris(dust) clouds...not good for solar

 

6) Mars does have Mars quakes in certain area's

 

7) Some plateaus are prone to massive dust storms

 

8) Weather is generally repeatable on the planet

 

9) On Earth, with properly insulated and "tied down " buildings,....we can handle -70C and 200 kph winds on a regular seasonal basis

 

10) The problem we have is that around -45C...we start breaking metal when flexed cold.....What I am saying is that we can handle it with proper clothing but the tooling most times can't. And we will not have this problem for 5 months, it will be 15 months,,,,,we need to work on the tooling to extract and try to process in a controlled environment...the less done outside, the better

 

11) Therefore I recommend that we treat 10 degrees North as temp equivalent to equator on Earth

 

12) If we want to stay on Mars year round......It's going to have to be in a range of worst dip at -100 C with very well insulated buildings which are anchored to rock and we need work suits capable of this cold flexing work on a regular basis.....and we will still need sheltered processing...not warm but better than outside........

 

13) Therefore I think we are pushing our luck too much for anything beyond 30 south and 40 north due to smaller planet size/curvature

 

The above is only my opinion...please start tearing it apart...if you don't...it could cost a life.....

[Arachno 1D]

What are the access windows to Mars like any restrictions apart from the present alignment that would hinder communication i.e. distance?

[DocM]

What are the access windows to Mars like any restrictions apart from the present alignment that would hinder communication i.e. distance?

Communication delays range from 4 minutes when Earth and Mars are closest to 24 minutes when they are furthest apart.

SpaceX developing the internet satellite constellation is to monetizie their Mars effort, and a side effect will be a similar constellation around Mars with relay satellites to handle comms between the two planets.

Its quite probable the satellite-to-satellite routing and planetary relay links will be by laser, and we know the downlinks to the surfaces will be by miniature (actually chip level) electrically steerable phased array antennas.

It's also possible those planetary and satellite laser links could use recently developed phased array (and also electronically steerable) lasers. Basically, no moving parts to aim either the RF or optics.

Satellite propulsion and station keeping will be by SpaceX built solar electric Hall effect plasma thrusters. Propellant: probably xenon, krypton or argon. These or ELF thrusters may also find their way into the MCT vehicles.

They're planning WAY ahead.

[Blue-Vision]

Okay, so anything beyond 40

[Tuskd]

Hello, Coming in a little late. I feel the region between Acidalia Planitia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidalia_Planitia and Chryse Planitia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chryse_Planitia could be a possible candidate for CoS. That region is basically made of volcanic mud with few craters, meaning its a newly formed site. So possibility of many minerals in the region and the region is flat. Also theres a huge bounty of thorium north of it. I think water is a problem but Chryse Planitia was once a basin with water flowing into it, so maybe there'll be some left? The temperature is on the lower side. So might also want to look at this.

 

It shows that a nuclear explosion can unearth (rather unmars) the thorium deposits as well as the explosion could release CO2 and other gases trapped in the soil which will produce a greenhouse effect, warming the area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Mars

heres the region

[Blue-Vision]

Welcome to the discussion, Tuskd.

 

I made a case for using an area in the extreme East of Acidalia Planitia called Deuteronilus Mensae earlier in the topic, but we've since determined that the area is a bit too far north and suffers from some extreme weather (Dust Devils and Sand Storms). Also, the H2O data is a bit sketchy -- Neutron Data shows it's in the soil, but Hydrogen Return says it isn't there.

 

 

We can't take the chance. Either H2O is conclusively there or it isn't. We have to choose another site, but Deuteronilus is definitely worth sending a Rover Mission to.

[flyingskippy]

If we are going to be drilling for minerals, then theres also the possibility that we could drill for water. Any guesses on how high the water table is on Mars? ?