[OFFICIAL] Windows 10 Insider Program

[PGHammer]

Why do I care about keyboard only navigation?  Rarely am I in a position to where I do not have either a trackpad or a mouse.  

 

The post your replied to was in response to Hawk saying something along the lines that certain parts (though he didn't specify) were easier to use with a mouse than touch.  I was curious at to which parts he was talking about.

 

 

Who said anything about difficult about using?  Aside from the excess mouse travel, side scrolling, big blocky boxes and in-your-face looks...it is easy to use.  Especially for the visually impaired or monkeys using a mouse.

Naturally, the pointing-device centric won't care. (I haven't implied otherwise, either.) What they want - no ifs, ands, or buts - is their pointing-device-centricity back.

What Hawk points out is the same thing I myself pointed out - those larger landing points.

The smaller landing points (which are ONLY suitable for mice - and pretty darn precise mice at that) also fail to benefit users of less-precise pointing devices - such as trackpads. Larger landing points, on the other hand, DO benefit trackpad and touchpad users - despite the apparent unbelievability of the anti-touch zealots. (However, that doesn't mean that mice can't use them - they certainly can. If you are not as precise a pointing-device user - which also applies to some users of mice - they may well suit you right down to the ground. (Not everyone is so precise - even when it comes to mice - I'm certainly not.))

In their anti-touch zealotry - which I can understand to a degree - they are ALSO threatening users of less precision - such as trackpads and touchpads. (As someone that uses a trackpad, I would, naturally resent the heck out of being lumped in with the touch users.)

I would think that other users of trackpads and touchpads would resent it just as much.

[George P Global Moderator]

Stay on topic guys, let's not once again drag this into a UI debate, there's another thread for that.

 

As far as tablet mode goes, you guys need to remember that there's the pure mobile SKU for minitablets, where touch is key and the main input method, that's not going to be an issue since you're going to get the phone UI and no desktop.

 

Now on 10" and up tablets it's going to be a hybrid, that's what makes the most sense because it's a hybrid device.  You'll have elements of the desktop and mobile in there.  As far as the taskbar goes, from what I've seen, and what I expect, in tablet mode the taskbar will change and auto hide until you swipe up.   The other edge UI's are fine, and work just as well, I don't see a problem with a left swipe to bring up the new task view UI, specially when you notice it's not limited by how many apps it can show compared to the old 8.x one which depended on how much screen space you had before apps started to fall off of it.

 

And the charms menu being replaced by the notification center is a upgrade IMO, more info and way more controls with the new buttons at the bottom of it.

[Ian S.]

Now on 10" and up tablets it's going to be a hybrid, that's what makes the most sense because it's a hybrid device.  You'll have elements of the desktop and mobile in there.  As far as the taskbar goes, from what I've seen, and what I expect, in tablet mode the taskbar will change and auto hide until you swipe up.   The other edge UI's are fine, and work just as well, I don't see a problem with a left swipe to bring up the new task view UI, specially when you notice it's not limited by how many apps it can show compared to the old 8.x

Task view is an upgrade that is canceled out by the downgrade in a sense that you have to move your hand to the center to switch apps instead of swiping in from the left. They should give the option to turn that back on because it was easy to switch apps. The task switcher could be enabled with a short swipe out then back in again.

 

For the taskbar, apps now have all UIs cluttering the app instead of the app bar at the bottom (downgrade) the taskbar should be a double swipe from the bottom and the action bar (close/min/max/charms) should be a double swipe from the top. 

[Dot Matrix]

Stay on topic guys, let's not once again drag this into a UI debate, there's another thread for that.

 

As far as tablet mode goes, you guys need to remember that there's the pure mobile SKU for minitablets, where touch is key and the main input method, that's not going to be an issue since you're going to get the phone UI and no desktop.

 

Now on 10" and up tablets it's going to be a hybrid, that's what makes the most sense because it's a hybrid device.  You'll have elements of the desktop and mobile in there.  As far as the taskbar goes, from what I've seen, and what I expect, in tablet mode the taskbar will change and auto hide until you swipe up.   The other edge UI's are fine, and work just as well, I don't see a problem with a left swipe to bring up the new task view UI, specially when you notice it's not limited by how many apps it can show compared to the old 8.x one which depended on how much screen space you had before apps started to fall off of it.

 

And the charms menu being replaced by the notification center is a upgrade IMO, more info and way more controls with the new buttons at the bottom of it.

A "hybrid" that strongly favors desktop style interaction. A truly awful experience. There was no reason to throw out the superior Windows 8.x UX. They threw out the baby with the bathwater, and now they're going to pay for that mistake, with poor mobile sales.  

[Kyang]

Stay on topic guys, let's not once again drag this into a UI debate, there's another thread for that.

 

As far as tablet mode goes, you guys need to remember that there's the pure mobile SKU for minitablets, where touch is key and the main input method, that's not going to be an issue since you're going to get the phone UI and no desktop.

 

Now on 10" and up tablets it's going to be a hybrid, that's what makes the most sense because it's a hybrid device.  You'll have elements of the desktop and mobile in there.  As far as the taskbar goes, from what I've seen, and what I expect, in tablet mode the taskbar will change and auto hide until you swipe up.   The other edge UI's are fine, and work just as well, I don't see a problem with a left swipe to bring up the new task view UI, specially when you notice it's not limited by how many apps it can show compared to the old 8.x one which depended on how much screen space you had before apps started to fall off of it.

 

And the charms menu being replaced by the notification center is a upgrade IMO, more info and way more controls with the new buttons at the bottom of it.

 

 

The new switcher is just as limited by screen space as the old one.  As far as I've seen, the new one just makes up for it by continually shrinking the window previews as more windows are opened.

 

Similarly, the old switcher could've been improved to get around the screen size problem you mentioned simply by having it scroll, which is how most switchers already deal with it anyway, including the classic taskbar.  It would also have the added advantage of having consistently sized click/touch targets.

 

That said, I do prefer the new switcher.  The only thing I want back from 8/8.1is the quick app switching when swiping from the left.

 

The notification center also loses ease of control in some cases when compared to the charms bar.  For example, and this is my usual go-to because it's so well designed in 8/8.1, adjusting the volume and brightness control slider is extremely simple.  Swipe in, settings, and drag the desired slider.  The user doesn't even have to lift their finger after clicking/tapping volume/brightness.  They can click/press and hold and immediately slide the control.  Again, they don't even have to tap the icon, wait for the slider to appear, and then adjust the little button.  Just press and slide.

 

Now in win10, it's swipe in, press display, wait for the display settings window to appear, go to the brightness slider, adjust, close the settings window.  It works, but not nearly as well for touch OR mouse, because ironically, they user has to move their mouse far more than with the charms bar, which was criticized as being purely touch driven, and having no place in a mouse and keyboard centric desktop.

 

They could make the relevant notification center buttons work as they used to in the charms bar, but there is absolutely zero sign than they will.

[George P Global Moderator]

The new switcher is just as limited by screen space as the old one.  As far as I've seen, the new one just makes up for it by continually shrinking the window previews as more windows are opened.

 

Similarly, the old switcher could've been improved to get around the screen size problem you mentioned simply by having it scroll, which is how most switchers already deal with it anyway, including the classic taskbar.  It would also have the added advantage of having consistently sized click/touch targets.

 

That said, I do prefer the new switcher.  The only thing I want back from 8/8.1is the quick app switching when swiping from the left.

 

The notification center also loses ease of control in some cases when compared to the charms bar.  For example, and this is my usual go-to because it's so well designed in 8/8.1, adjusting the volume and brightness control slider is extremely simple.  Swipe in, settings, and drag the desired slider.  The user doesn't even have to lift their finger after clicking/tapping volume/brightness.  They can click/press and hold and immediately slide the control.  Again, they don't even have to tap the icon, wait for the slider to appear, and then adjust the little button.  Just press and slide.

 

Now in win10, it's swipe in, press display, wait for the display settings window to appear, go to the brightness slider, adjust, close the settings window.  It works, but not nearly as well for touch OR mouse, because ironically, they user has to move their mouse far more than with the charms bar, which was criticized as being purely touch driven, and having no place in a mouse and keyboard centric desktop.

 

They could make the relevant notification center buttons work as they used to in the charms bar, but there is absolutely zero sign than they will.

 

The unified OS idea has to apply to core UI elements as well, you can't have a charms bar sticking around just for tablets, what about phones and it also doesn't fit/isn't needed for pure desktop users either.   The notification center is something that works on all three device types, that's the key part here, it's not limited to desktop or just phone, it works on tablets as well.   And very few, and I do mean very few, people cared or understood the charms bar or bothered to use it.  MS admitted as much and it's gone, as far as sliders and so on, it would be possible to add slider controls into the new notification center instead of bringing up the settings app to change it.

 

Look at networking for example, before when you hit the wifi button on the NC it'd pop up the settings up, now in the past few builds it brings up inside the NC.  The same can happen with volume and brightness buttons etc.

 

As for the new task switcher, sure they could've added scrolling to it, I would've liked for that to happen but another thing to remember, it was cut off from the desktop itself, it treated the desktop and any desktop apps as one "app".  Now that you have a mix of universal and classic apps, even on x86 10" tablets like the new Surface 3 (remember, newer 8" and lower will get the mobile/phone UI, so these arguments don't apply to those), people expect to run both types of apps on those devices, and the switcher needs to take classic apps into account.    It's also about using a familiar UI element that people know about for years with a new touch gesture, majority of people know what alt + tab is, and many know win+tab as well, the UI's are now the same minus the virtual desktop options at the bottom if you do alt+tab.   It's another thing that's important, they've talked about keeping things familiar but adapting them for touch as well, changing the task switcher to the what they have now makes sense when you take all these points into account.  It also fits with the new snap assist feature, they share UIs so when that pops up after you snap a app you understand right away what the OS is asking of you. 

 

Again, hybrids need to work as both, it makes the most sense to keep the UI as consistent between the two and have them work with kb+mouse and touch/pen without totally changing the UI like 8 does.  That doesn't mean however that they still don't need polish and tweaking, they do.

[HawkMan]

Stay on topic guys, let's not once again drag this into a UI debate, there's another thread for that.

 

As far as tablet mode goes, you guys need to remember that there's the pure mobile SKU for minitablets, where touch is key and the main input method, that's not going to be an issue since you're going to get the phone UI and no desktop.

 

Now on 10" and up tablets it's going to be a hybrid, that's what makes the most sense because it's a hybrid device.  You'll have elements of the desktop and mobile in there.  As far as the taskbar goes, from what I've seen, and what I expect, in tablet mode the taskbar will change and auto hide until you swipe up.   The other edge UI's are fine, and work just as well, I don't see a problem with a left swipe to bring up the new task view UI, specially when you notice it's not limited by how many apps it can show compared to the old 8.x one which depended on how much screen space you had before apps started to fall off of it.

 

And the charms menu being replaced by the notification center is a upgrade IMO, more info and way more controls with the new buttons at the bottom of it.

 

I don't mind the notification center, but it should have kept certain elements of the charms, at least the centered start button and app settings should have stayed. 

 

other than that it also needs a few tweaks, like clciking the display button should give you the brightness slider right there like on charms, instead of bringing you to display settings. unecessary complication. '

 

likewise on Windows 10 for mobile they need to add clocks and Alarms as a quick action on notification center. 

 

and while Task view is neat, the old method was better. at the very least allow in tablet mode for quick app switching by sliding in from the lef. the design where rapid swiped rolled through apps and a pause in between brought you back to the last used app was usability genius. 

[HawkMan]

 

 

As for the new task switcher, sure they could've added scrolling to it, I would've liked for that to happen but another thing to remember,

 

Ummm the new task switcher does scroll. 

 

on my laptop currently it shows 11 apps on the first "page". it only shows to rows of apps. 5 onthe top row 6 on the bottom. top row is all full screen app, bottom row also has the task manager which is narrower allowing an extra app. 

 

Despite these two rows taking at most half my vertical screen space however I have two giant up and down arrows below them, and two more rows of apps I need to click down twice to see. 

[Kyang]

Ummm the new task switcher does scroll. 

 

on my laptop currently it shows 11 apps on the first "page". it only shows to rows of apps. 5 onthe top row 6 on the bottom. top row is all full screen app, bottom row also has the task manager which is narrower allowing an extra app. 

 

Despite these two rows taking at most half my vertical screen space however I have two giant up and down arrows below them, and two more rows of apps I need to click down twice to see. 

 

Pretty sure it was just a typo.  We were talking about the 8/8.1 side bar switcher.

 

The unified OS idea has to apply to core UI elements as well, you can't have a charms bar sticking around just for tablets, what about phones and it also doesn't fit/isn't needed for pure desktop users either.   The notification center is something that works on all three device types, that's the key part here, it's not limited to desktop or just phone, it works on tablets as well.   And very few, and I do mean very few, people cared or understood the charms bar or bothered to use it.  MS admitted as much and it's gone, as far as sliders and so on, it would be possible to add slider controls into the new notification center instead of bringing up the settings app to change it.

 

Look at networking for example, before when you hit the wifi button on the NC it'd pop up the settings up, now in the past few builds it brings up inside the NC.  The same can happen with volume and brightness buttons etc.

 

As for the new task switcher, sure they could've added scrolling to it, I would've liked for that to happen but another thing to remember, it was cut off from the desktop itself, it treated the desktop and any desktop apps as one "app".  Now that you have a mix of universal and classic apps, even on x86 10" tablets like the new Surface 3 (remember, newer 8" and lower will get the mobile/phone UI, so these arguments don't apply to those), people expect to run both types of apps on those devices, and the switcher needs to take classic apps into account.    It's also about using a familiar UI element that people know about for years with a new touch gesture, majority of people know what alt + tab is, and many know win+tab as well, the UI's are now the same minus the virtual desktop options at the bottom if you do alt+tab.   It's another thing that's important, they've talked about keeping things familiar but adapting them for touch as well, changing the task switcher to the what they have now makes sense when you take all these points into account.  It also fits with the new snap assist feature, they share UIs so when that pops up after you snap a app you understand right away what the OS is asking of you. 

 

Again, hybrids need to work as both, it makes the most sense to keep the UI as consistent between the two and have them work with kb+mouse and touch/pen without totally changing the UI like 8 does.  That doesn't mean however that they still don't need polish and tweaking, they do.

 

Basically agreed.  The new task switcher and notification center definitely carry improvements.  And as we've both said, things that worked in the Charms bar like the sliders could be added to the new action center buttons and yes, that would fall under the polishing and tweaking.  It's encouraging to know that the latest builds have started to keep more of the work flow in the Notification center, because as I mentioned earlier, tweaking settings like volume or brightness actually worked better for hybrids than how they have it now.  If that same thoughtful design, including details like not even needing to lift your finger, are added in, then that would be ideal.

[George P Global Moderator]

It sounds like there was/might be a new build out today, unless it was delayed.  Looks like the plan was for build 10061 to go out to the fast ring.

[PotatoAlchemist]

It sounds like there was/might be a new build out today, unless it was delayed.  Looks like the plan was for build 10061 to go out to the fast ring.

 

Could be regarding some bugs that it brings, including something related to the Start Button, at least according to WZOR.

[Dot Matrix]

jfc that build is like two weeks old...

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

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[Ian S.]

Installing 10061 now...

 

 

 

• The Windows Store Beta (grey tile) and Project Spartan get unpinned after upgrading. You can re-pin them to your Taskbar from All apps on your Start menu.
• The version of the Mail and Calendar apps included in this build (17.4008.42281.0) have a known issue that causes every typed letter to appear twice. Which might be funny if it weren

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Installed. They're getting there.

 

[timster]

known bugs in 10061: http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwindows/2015/04/22/windows-10-technical-preview-build-10061-now-available/

 

Windows 10 Technical Preview Build 10061 now available Here are some known issues for this build

• We know this one will be a bit painful but there is a bug with this build in which Win32 (desktop) apps won

[Dot Matrix]

Just got a Tweet from Microsoft's Brandon LeBlanc - Good news for tablet users, apparently they have something in the works which will improve tablet/mobile workflow. What that is, I have no clue yet, though.

[tompkin]

Installed. They're getting there.

 

10061.PNG

I like the new look!!!

[nosense]

Since we got a build today, I wonder if we will get one at build. 

[Dot Matrix]

I can't believe they pushed this build out. This has to be the WORST build they've released yet in terms of stability. I took me five clicks to open Spartan, only to have it crash on me. Numerous other apps don't even launch.

[nosense]

I can't believe they pushed this build out. This has to be the WORST build they've released yet in terms of stability. I took me five clicks to open Spartan, only to have it crash on me. Numerous other apps don't even launch.

Ya, i would clean install 10056 or 10061(there's iso floating around). I had problems when i updated from 10051 to 10056. Clean installation fix all the start menu bugs for me. No need to left click admin to launch apps no more. 

 

10061 seems fixed alot of bugs from 10056 and is snappier than the previous build. 

[BetaAddict]

To think this is releasing this summer, the design still looks half baked with all the wasted padding around windows, menus, and tiles. The new icon set is just hideous, especially that recycle bin that looks like a 1st grader drew it.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Just got a Tweet from Microsoft's Brandon LeBlanc - Good news for tablet users, apparently they have something in the works which will improve tablet/mobile workflow. What that is, I have no clue yet, though.

I miss ol Brandon. He always had awesome posts. Wish he'd come back.

[Quillz]

To think this is releasing this summer, the design still looks half baked with all the wasted padding around windows, menus, and tiles. The new icon set is just hideous, especially that recycle bin that looks like a 1st grader drew it.

So change the icons. You've always been able to change the system icons. There will no doubt be many icon sets "fixing" the Win10 icons shortly after release.

[NightmarE D]

Upgraded through Windows Update and the only issues I've had soo far is that I'm seeing double folders in the Documents folder. Documents, Downloads, Music, Pictures and Videos each have two folders. When I try to download anything through the Store Beta it's slow, but normal speed in the regular store. I don't have any bugs with the Start menu that I can see. Win32 apps open fine and I don't need to open them as an admin.

 

Only thing really getting on my nerves is the thin white border around the notification center. Little stuff like that usually wouldn't get to me, but that sticks out too much with the black theme and just doesn't look right.