The Windows 10 Tablet Experience

[Ian W]

MS really needs to kill off the close gesture 'in app'.  That's the last bit of Win8 nonsense that remains.

I still do not understand why you are so antagonistic toward Windows 8 and / or users who like at least some of its features. Why does this constantly have to be an either-or proposition? If you do not like the close gesture, then do not use it. It really is that simple and it does not do you any harm if the feature remains for those who happen to use it.

[Mockingbird]

[Motor_Mouth]

My workstation is a development machine. No tablet could do those things.

 

Pish-tosh. If I can run 3DS Max or get up in front af a room full of people and perform a full set on my tablet, you can run Notepad on yours. (That's right, I don't see development as a very taxing use of a computer.)

[Motor_Mouth]

There are some things that are a step backwards but they're outweighed by the improvements IMO. Hopefully things like gesture support will be added to Edge over time. At least we know it will be continuously improved.

 

OK, then, name one improvement that makes up for W10 being unusable on tablets. To put it another way, complete this sentence - "Oh, well, the $800 worth of tablets I have are now useless but at least I can now ..."

[+Elі Subscriber²]

Clealry you are lying to us, or you'd know that swiping left does NOT close an app and that All Apps is not down the left side in Tablet mode, but hidden behind a Hamburger menu. I am more than happy to accept change when it improves outcomes. When it makes things measurably worse, only a complete idiot would put up with it.

 

Well. Mr. Motor_Mouth clearly you assume a lot of things, he DOES have a Stream 7 and he did upgraded it to 10 a while back.

[Mockingbird]

Well. Mr. Motor_Mouth clearly you assume a lot of things, he DOES have a Stream 7 and he did upgraded it to 10 a while back.

 

The only way we can believe that warwagon really have an HP Stream 7 is if he post pictures of it with three different types of fruits, in three different locations of his house, on three different types of furniture.

 

/sarcasm

[Motor_Mouth]

I can't for the love of me understand why someone would find 8.1 better than 10 at all in either a tablet or a desktop, it's like night and day, the experience is so much consistent and smooth...

 

It is anything BUT consistent in W10. Here are four examples:

• When in Tablet mode, I can close any program by swiping its window down from the top of the screen but if I try and do that to the same program when I am not in Tablet Mode, all it does is push that window off the screen without closing it. OTOH, with W8 you close each program in the same, consistent way at all times because there is only one mode.
• When I want to use my tablet with touch, it is only possible by changing the scaling to the maximum allowed, requiring me to log out and log back in. But that makes the desktop virtually useless, so I have to change it back again, logging out and back in again, when I want to use any desktop software. OTOH, Windows 8 just works for both desktop and touch use without having to select anything or change anything.
• In Tablet Mode, the Back button allows me to ease back out of deeper settings in Settings, one level at a time, but outside of Tablet mode I get dumped back at the top level. So things you get used to doing in one mode suddenly don't work because you are in a different mode, even beyond the fact that the button is there and then gone.
• When in Tablet mode, parts of the Start Menu that are visible normally are hidden behind a hamburger menu, whereas on WIndows 8 the Start Screen is exactly the same at all times.
• When in Tablet Mode, it is not possible to access the desktop at all, whereas in Windows 8 I always have access to the desktop.

The very existence of Tablet Mode ensures there is no consistency in Windows 10.

 

I hated the eviroment sudden changes when you would open win32 apps for instance and it would take you back to the desktop etc, this feels so much better, and keeps a good balance where both desktop and tablet users are taken care of.

 

This is purely wrong. There are no "sudden environment changes" when starting an application in Windows 8. My keyboard and mouse continue to operate in the same way and my desktop wallpaper is the same. It is no different at all to any other version of Windows and far less jarring than Tablet Mode in Windows 10. In fact, it is even less jarring than using the Start Menu fullscreen in Windows 10.

[Motor_Mouth]

10 has a VERY fast and fluid UI, have you actually tried it on a device with no driver issues?

 

Not as fast and much less fluid than Windows 8. The switch from surfing the 'net on the couch to sitting down at my desk to do some work is testament to that. The fact it needs a special mode for touch tells you that it is not fluid.

 

The taskbar CAN be hidden, check the configuration settings, but many including me find it very useful, however if you have a small tablet you can hide it.

 

But then it is hidden on the desktop as well, which I hate. If there si goign to be a Tablet MOde, why can't there be spearate taskbar settings for it. That's what I hate most about Tablet Mode - it doesn't do anything tha tactually makes Windows easier to use on a tablet.

 

- UI gestures - More will come, be patient, this is a new start in the Windows UI.

 

But the gestures were there in WIndows 8 and have been removed. That doesn't give anyone any confidence they will come back at all.

[Anibal P]

The fact that you're essentially the only one crying about this, professional Win 10 haters don't count, shows it's just you looking for something to cry about 

[Motor_Mouth]

I'm not even close to the only one. As was pointed out by someone else, there is a thread on the Insider Forum with more than 1100 replies, overwhelmingly taking a similar view to mine. It's just that places like this tend to attract one-eyed fanbois who think that andorsing every krap thing Microsoft does is the same as supporting them.

[adrynalyne]

Pish-tosh. If I can run 3DS Max or get up in front af a room full of people and perform a full set on my tablet, you can run Notepad on yours. (That's right, I don't see development as a very taxing use of a computer.)

Well then you dont know anything about being a developer, especially with the lame notepad comment.

There is a reason my workstation has an i7-5960x, 32gb of DDR4, and a 30 dollar video card.

[adrynalyne]

I'm not even close to the only one. As was pointed out by someone else, there is a thread on the Insider Forum with more than 1100 replies, overwhelmingly taking a similar view to mine. It's just that places like this tend to attract one-eyed fanbois who think that andorsing every krap thing Microsoft does is the same as supporting them.

Wow 1100 replies when there are 1.5 million insiders.

[Dot Matrix]

 

 

Look at all that space in the middle I can't touch at all, unless I move my hand. With Windows 8.1, that wasn't an issue, because it could slide left or right. Now, it slides up and down, forever out of reach.

[efjay]

 

 

Try reaching the camera or settings tiles with your thumbs. The layout has pros and cons too.

[vcfan]

Wow 1100 replies when there are 1.5 million insiders.

 

actually its up to 5 now

[adrynalyne]

actually its up to 5 now

That makes his comment even more hilarious.

[Motor_Mouth]

Wow 1100 replies when there are 1.5 million insiders.

 

Well, if you could find a thread saying how great the tablet experience is with even more replies, your point might actually be relevant. As it stands, it proves nothing. After all, there were more than a million Insiders using pre-release builds of Windows 8 and providing feedback and look how that turned out for the product.

 

Well then you dont know anything about being a developer, especially with the lame notepad comment.

There is a reason my workstation has an i7-5960x, 32gb of DDR4, and a 30 dollar video card.

 

Yeah, 6 years as a product specialist for Autodesk and I never met a single one. I doubt that any of my software would even run with your workstation - they wouldn't be able to draw their UIs with a $30 video card. Which, of course, is absurd as when I started using 3DS Max, for instance, it was running on a Pentium 166 with a 1Mb FireGL card (back when they were still Diamond) and worked well enough.

 

Try reaching the camera or settings tiles with your thumbs. The layout has pros and cons too.

 

You can move the tiles around as much as you like. If you need to get to camera settings (which we all hope you never would on a tablet), it is trivial to move and/or resize the tile.

[adrynalyne]

Well, if you could find a thread saying how great the tablet experience is with even more replies, your point might actually be relevant. As it stands, it proves nothing. After all, there were more than a million Insiders using pre-release builds of Windows 8 and providing feedback and look how that turned out for the product.

Yeah, 6 years as a product specialist for Autodesk and I never met a single one. I doubt that any of my software would even run with your workstation - they wouldn't be able to draw their UIs with a $30 video card. Which, of course, is absurd as when I started using 3DS Max, for instance, it was running on a Pentium 166 with a 1Mb FireGL card (back when they were still Diamond) and worked well enough.

You can move the tiles around as much as you like. If you need to get to camera settings (which we all hope you never would on a tablet), it is trivial to move and/or resize the tile.

It is interesting you want to get into a d*ck swinging contest, when you cannot even figure out tablet mode and scaling.

I couldn't care less about your software that won't run on my machine. I am not a designer, I let our designers handle heavy work that involves the GPU. They have the same machine with much nicer video card. I guarantee your software that allegedly won't run on my machine also won't run on your little itty bitty tablets, which was my original point.

You clearly know nothing about what I do, and what it takes to do it. So why don't you get back on topic instead of making idiotic assumptions about my computer usage.

[SionicIon]

It is anything BUT consistent in W10. Here are four examples:

• When in Tablet mode, I can close any program by swiping its window down from the top of the screen but if I try and do that to the same program when I am not in Tablet Mode, all it does is push that window off the screen without closing it. OTOH, with W8 you close each program in the same, consistent way at all times because there is only one mode.
• When I want to use my tablet with touch, it is only possible by changing the scaling to the maximum allowed, requiring me to log out and log back in. But that makes the desktop virtually useless, so I have to change it back again, logging out and back in again, when I want to use any desktop software. OTOH, Windows 8 just works for both desktop and touch use without having to select anything or change anything.
• In Tablet Mode, the Back button allows me to ease back out of deeper settings in Settings, one level at a time, but outside of Tablet mode I get dumped back at the top level. So things you get used to doing in one mode suddenly don't work because you are in a different mode, even beyond the fact that the button is there and then gone.
• When in Tablet mode, parts of the Start Menu that are visible normally are hidden behind a hamburger menu, whereas on WIndows 8 the Start Screen is exactly the same at all times.
• When in Tablet Mode, it is not possible to access the desktop at all, whereas in Windows 8 I always have access to the desktop.

The very existence of Tablet Mode ensures there is no consistency in Windows 10.

 

 

This is purely wrong. There are no "sudden environment changes" when starting an application in Windows 8. My keyboard and mouse continue to operate in the same way and my desktop wallpaper is the same. It is no different at all to any other version of Windows and far less jarring than Tablet Mode in Windows 10. In fact, it is even less jarring than using the Start Menu fullscreen in Windows 10.

 

The reason why tablet mode exists is the Surface basically. And it works really well too. How many reviews of any Surface model will suggest the keyboard be bundled or list it as a con that you have to buy it separately? This suggests anyone who buys a Surface also gets a type cover. This also means they spend a lot of time propping the kickstand and using the keyboard and touchpad.

 

95% of the time my type cover is attached to my Surface 3. It was this way with the Surface 2, the Surface Pro 1, and the Surface RT. I've had quite a few Surfaces and the type cover was almost always attached. 50-60% of the time I was sitting down using the type cover. The other 40-50% of the time I folded back the type cover and used just the touchscreen. Perhaps I even took the type cover off too.

 

This creates two use scenarios. One with a fully functional mouse and keyboard configuration, and the other with just a touchscreen. And you switch between the two quickly and easily. What I always encountered with any Surface I had was Windows had two separate environments, and it wasn't really a choice but a matter of being forced into one of those environments.

 

If I wanted to sit down with the type cover out, chances are I would be more productive on the desktop but that meant using completely different applications. I could use the newer apps in the new environment, but chances are I would be less productive.

 

So after all the feedback to make the new apps windowed and bring back the start menu, they began work for Windows 8.2, which was basically the vision we saw, and what the first preview build we had basically was. But the concept of Continuum was something remarkable and a real reason to go all in with the next release being Windows 10. There were other reasons but the options we originally had meant logging out and back in to switch between a start menu and a start screen that didn't share the same layout or switch based on your interaction method. Why build that when Windows 10 would introduce Continuum?

 

Tablet mode really does not make sense for your case scenario. It was meant more for the Surface, a device that truly transforms. I can make a choice to use the touchscreen and then sit down and unfold the type cover and have Windows turn off tablet mode. With the Surface propped up on it's first stage of the kickstand, I wouldn't swipe down an app to close it, that's just awkward. Perhaps it was on the second or third stage sitting propped up in my lap with tablet mode off, yes that makes more sense.

 

Even like with the desktop, as a former Surface 2 and RT owner, we all wanted the desktop to go. We wanted a true mobile OS. Although the Surface 2 got screwed because Windows RT is dead, the complexity of switching between environments is gone with the added functionality of desktop apps being more touch-friendly is a dream come true.

 

And any tablet that's not bigger than 8 inches will be running Windows 10 Mobile. Which goes back to your case scenario not being great for Continuum. If you have a smaller tablet, tablet mode shouldn't be of concern. It'll have the 10 Mobile OS, which is much better suited for touch. If you already have a small tablet, then you'll have to use the full Windows 10.

 

Oh also, Windows 10 finally uses the same scaling for new Windows apps and for desktop apps. It switches the Windows apps scaling separately and instantly but says to log out and back in, which then changes the scaling for the desktop apps. Before with Windows 8.1, there is an option to make apps smaller, chance are you ran Windows at 100% scaling, but had Windows apps scaling, if you were to switch it so it made apps smaller (no scaling), you would have the same experience you have on Windows 10.

 

Honestly I think you are just used to having two completely separate working environments. One with bigger more touch friendly apps, and the other with no scaling and not touch friendly at all. Yes I can see the appeal slightly, but after wanting the UI to be more consistent by fusing the desktop environment together with the tablet environment, and getting that with Windows 10 and even more, it's much better done on Windows 10 and it works great with my usage scenarios.

[Motor_Mouth]

It is interesting you want to get into a d*ck swinging contest, when you cannot even figure out tablet mode and scaling.

I just find it amusing when developers try and suggest they need a grunty computer. As I alluded to, I worked very closely with the dev teams at Autodesk on a number of cutting edge products, over several years. I think I have a very clear idea of what it is a developer does and how much strain it puts on their hardware. Strangely enough, most of those guys didn't have a sense of humour, either (which I put down to them being French Canadian at the time).

 

The reason why tablet mode exists is the Surface basically. And it works really well too. How many reviews of any Surface model will suggest the keyboard be bundled or list it as a con that you have to buy it separately? This suggests anyone who buys a Surface also gets a type cover. This also means they spend a lot of time propping the kickstand and using the keyboard and touchpad.

95% of the time my type cover is attached to my Surface 3. It was this way with the Surface 2, the Surface Pro 1, and the Surface RT. I've had quite a few Surfaces and the type cover was almost always attached. 50-60% of the time I was sitting down using the type cover. The other 40-50% of the time I folded back the type cover and used just the touchscreen. Perhaps I even took the type cover off too.

Maybe for their first one but I always put those comments down to journalists having to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find some negatives. To me it makes perfect sense and I wonder why you keep buying them. But you are contradicting yourself. You are saying Tablet mode exists because of Surface, then telling us that you'll never need it becaus eyou alway shave your keyboard attached. I'd also point out that my Yoga 2 tablet also comes with a bundled, custom keyboard and is just as much a two-in-one as any Surface.

 

95% of the time my type cover is attached to my Surface 3. It was this way with the Surface 2, the Surface Pro 1, and the Surface RT. I've had quite a few Surfaces and the type cover was almost always attached. 50-60% of the time I was sitting down using the type cover. The other 40-50% of the time I folded back the type cover and used just the touchscreen. Perhaps I even took the type cover off too.

 

This creates two use scenarios. One with a fully functional mouse and keyboard configuration, and the other with just a touchscreen. And you switch between the two quickly and easily. What I always encountered with any Surface I had was Windows had two separate environments, and it wasn't really a choice but a matter of being forced into one of those environments.

Again, I think you have it backwards. It is Windows 8 that allows you to switch between desktop and touch use easily, because you don't hav eto do anything at all to facilitate it. e.g. If I am working with touch in W8, I don't see any scrollbars but as soon as I attach a mouse the scrollbars appear without any intervention from me.

 

I certainly don't see how you were forced into a certain environment with W8. Quite the opposite, you can use whatever part of it works best for you. e.g. Don't like reading PDF files full-screen in the Reader app, then install a desktop PDF reader and use that, just like you always did. Or if you don't like using the Modern UI version of IE, then you can choose to use the familiar desktop version. But now we have a choice of two browsers that are clearly both designed solely for desktop use, which isn't much of a choice at all. It is Windows 10 that forces you to choose between two modes, Windows 8 just lets you use whatever part of it suits you. That's what I love about W8 - it opens up new possibilities - but now W10 comes along and closes them off again. It's almost cruel.

 

Even like with the desktop, as a former Surface 2 and RT owner, we all wanted the desktop to go. We wanted a true mobile OS.

If that's true, then you'd have been better off with an iPad. Those kinds of tablets are a complete and utter waste of money, in that your phone can do all the same things. It is the desktop that makes a Windows tablet useful and that's why Windows RT failed so dismally - it looked like Windows but was no more useful than iOS or Android. That's why I waited until someone made a Windows tablet that could run all my desktop software.

 

And any tablet that's not bigger than 8 inches will be running Windows 10 Mobile. Which goes back to your case scenario not being great for Continuum. If you have a smaller tablet, tablet mode shouldn't be of concern. It'll have the 10 Mobile OS, which is much better suited for touch. If you already have a small tablet, then you'll have to use the full Windows 10.

It sounds like you think the marketing dept should decide how I use my tablet. I'm sorry but that's patently absurd. My 8" tablet is perfectly capable of running the full Adobe Creative Suite and all my other professional software. That's why I have it. If it was just going to be a big phone that can't make calls and won't fit in my pocket, what would be the point of it? I already have a phone and with Continuum I will be able to hook it up to a larger screen so, just like my 8" tablet, it's physical size won't be a barrier to using it to the fullest. That one feature makes Windows Mobile on a tablet a ridiculous proposition, doesn't it?

 

Oh also, Windows 10 finally uses the same scaling for new Windows apps and for desktop apps. It switches the Windows apps scaling separately and instantly but says to log out and back in, which then changes the scaling for the desktop apps. Before with Windows 8.1, there is an option to make apps smaller

You have it back-to-front again. The option is to make things larger but the default is for them to be normal size. Sure, Metro stuff is still a lot bigger than stuff on the desktop, that's why it works! As you point out, Windows 10 assumes that whatever scaling works with a mouse and keyboard will also work with touch which, yet again, is patently absurd. You are almost making my argument for me.

 

 

Honestly I think you are just used to having two completely separate working environments. One with bigger more touch friendly apps, and the other with no scaling and not touch friendly at all. Yes I can see the appeal slightly, but after wanting the UI to be more consistent by fusing the desktop environment together with the tablet environment, and getting that with Windows 10 and even more, it's much better done on Windows 10 and it works great with my usage scenarios.

It's not that I'm used to it, it's that it works and Windwos 10 doesn't. You cannot possibly sit there and tell me that it makes sense to use the same size UI with a precision pointing tool like a mouse as it does with your big, fat fingers. That is the most stupid assertion I've read on this forum and if it is true, then we may as well start using Windows 7 on our tablets.

?

[adrynalyne]

I just find it amusing when developers try and suggest they need a grunty computer. As I alluded to, I worked very closely with the dev teams at Autodesk on a number of cutting edge products, over several years. I think I have a very clear idea of what it is a developer does and how much strain it puts on their hardware. Strangely enough, most of those guys didn't have a sense of humour, either (which I put down to them being French Canadian at the time).

I find it amusing you think that because you met some developers, you know all of them.

 

Let me describe my average day:

 

I have at least three instances of Visual Studio open with diferent projects, sites running in IIS locally, and Sql Server Development Edition running locally. In addition, I have a VM running, 2-3 RDP sessions running, Android Studio, Sublime Text 3, Sql Server Profiler, SSMS, ADB, and Fiddler running.  Thats not counting the additional apps I have open like Outlook, Excel, Chrome, Skype For Business etc.  Of course, this is just one machine I have running. I also have two laptops running at any given time (mbp and spectre).

 

 

 

You load all that up on your puny tablets and watch them choke and die.  My previous 8GB, Quad Core Xeon workstation choked and it is 10x more powerful than your tablets.  So forgive me while I don't take comments like "I do everything I do on my workstation, on my tablet" very seriously.

 

You might think you know development because you know developers, but clearly you do not actually know development for everyone.  It is easy looking from the outside in. Try walking a mile in my shoes before you try to tell me what I do and do not need.  Heck, if you can show that you can run everything on your Yoga 2 tablet that I mentioned and have a fully functioning system WHILE using it to develop software, I will personally take a crap in a bowl and eat it.  If you cannot, then you have to.  Deal?  This is how certain I am that you cannot do what I do on a tablet.

[George P Global Moderator]

The argument about not being able to reach for things in the middle of the screen or having to move your hand from one of the sides to tap on something is a silly one to me.  I'm not going to use my tablet with my hands glued to the sides of it and only with my thumbs, that's not what people do, much like with a phone you often hold it with one hand and have your other one free to work with.    For the majority out there, lifting their hand that extra 1 second it takes to click on something in the middle of the screen out of thumbs reach is trivial and not at all an issue.

 

This has really went beyond nitpicking at this point.

[adrynalyne]

The argument about not being able to reach for things in the middle of the screen or having to move your hand from one of the sides to tap on something is a silly one to me.  I'm not going to use my tablet with my hands glued to the sides of it and only with my thumbs, that's not what people do, much like with a phone you often hold it with one hand and have your other one free to work with.    For the majority out there, lifting their hand that extra 1 second it takes to click on something in the middle of the screen out of thumbs reach is trivial and not at all an issue.

 

This has really went beyond nitpicking at this point.

When you have nothing concrete to debate, all you got left is nitpicking.  So that is where we are at now, a thread full of a couple of nitpickers, those who do not understand scaling and tablet mode, and then those who disagree.

 

Of course.. Motor_Mouth has already made it clear that only he is speaking facts, therefore the nitpickers must be right.

[MikeChipshop Member]

I think we probably all agree but it was something the guy in the video - remember that this discussion has been framed by a video - used it to suggest that vertical scrolling was superior to horizontal scrolling. That stuff is simply a response to a silly assertion. It certainly isn't a big issue for me, especially as the tablet I am testing Windows 10 on lends itself more to one-handed use.

The argument about not being able to reach for things in the middle of the screen or having to move your hand from one of the sides to tap on something is a silly one to me.

You really have no concept of how anyone might use a tablet, do you? You certainly have no idea how to use a computer, having all that stuff open at once. Let me tell you, on the HP Z800 with dual Xeon (8-core), 64Gb of RAM and ridiculously expensive Quadro graphics I use at work, I close every other open application when I am rendering 3D. Even when I am working I would not have Outlook, a browser or anything else peripheral to the task at hand taking system resources from 3DS Max. I use my tablet or laptop for that stuff. You may find it convenient to have all that stuff open but, if you had to, you could do it on a less powerful tablet than mine, quite easily. I think the first time I used VM Ware was on a Pentium 166 with half a gig of RAM and it was perfectly usable.

When I use my tablet solo, it's because I am not in the office and have to make some adjustments or add something quickly. What makes my Thinkpad 8 awesome is the combination of its ability to run all that software, its extreme portability and Windows 8. Its portability means I take it with me all the time, whereas I used to only take my laptop if I knew I would need it. That it runs all my software usably means I don't need to take my laptop and Windows 8 means that it isn't just a one-trick pony.

This post makes it evident you're just trolling.

So your work flow is to close every app you're not directly using at that point? No wonder you can use a tablet, but for the rest of us, that's a stupid idea.

As a web dev I've got several things to concentrate on at one, four different browsers open, IDE, FTP client, Photoshop for sampling colours, gradients and fonts, Skype for client calls, Apache, a MySQL server, PHP module, not to mention piddly things like email client etc.

More to the point, you're actually contradicting yourself now.

[jakem1]

OK, then, name one improvement that makes up for W10 being unusable on tablets. To put it another way, complete this sentence - "Oh, well, the $800 worth of tablets I have are now useless but at least I can now ..."

 

I don't think W10 is unusable by any stretch of the imagination.  I think you need to get over yourself.