wakjak Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) The console needs to be more powerful than PS4 and the controller needs to be another dual screed portable system with similar battery life to the 3DS. And the price also needs to be $399-$449 USD at launch. And it needs all the online features you would expect from the competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceelf Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I have no doubt the NX will still be crushed by the "PC Master Race" though but that's not really their competition. I'm sure you know how little I care about the "PC Idiot Race." If not, well, it's kind of obvious. DX12 should make PC gaming amazing in a way it hasn't been in a very long time, but we're still seeing devs using DX9 (even if not many) so we'll see how things go. Ian W 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veiva Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm sure you know how little I care about the "PC Idiot Race." If not, well, it's kind of obvious. DX12 should make PC gaming amazing in a way it hasn't been in a very long time, but we're still seeing devs using DX9 (even if not many) so we'll see how things go. Problem with PC (as a platform) has generally been inability to make full use of hardware due to platform agnostic APIs. Consoles, prior to last generation, essentially had no operating systems and fully documented hardware (for developers, that is). As a result, a skilled team could push the absolute most out of the hardware, which simply wasn't possible on any PC platform. Non-Nintendo consoles in the prior generation abstracted more away. In the current generation, developers don't quite have full access to hardware (it seems the Xbox One required devs to use DirectX 11, which is why DirectX 12 is such a big thing for One devs?). DirectX 12 and Vulkan provide that low-level access to the GPU, kind of like what was on console hardware. The Xbox 360 and PS3, on release, were superior, in various respects, to even high-end PC hardware, without considering the low-level access developers had. This generation, the consoles had subpar hardware on release... and subpar development platforms, seemingly. DirectX 12/Vulkan will be good for PC gamers... but developers will have to cater to console users, regardless. Money speaks the most, and while even a $500 budget gaming PC build is years ahead of current generation consoles, developers don't care and will aim for PS4/One first, resulting in overall subpar potential gaming experiences on all fronts. It's not an issue of "PC is better" (it is, hardware and experience wise), it's an issue of where the money is, and console games are more ready to part with their money for worse experiences. Nintendo bypasses that, in a way, by delivering great games at reasonable prices without exploiting the consumer, and that's why I don't care so much about their hardware. Still sucks if they go with some "better-yet-still-netbook" hardware like Sony and Microsoft, though. President Devil 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceelf Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 It's not an issue of "PC is better" (it is, hardware and experience wise) If by experience you mean usually having to wait for patch #3 before the game can even be played well sure. I'm not sold on that theory. The Xbox 360 and PS3 had their superiority in amount of detail that could be shown onscene, but still had severe restrictions on all that since they had no RAM, so it was a tradeoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Devil Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Yeah I think the only way this can work is the Vita/PS setup. Basically a new 3DS/portable the doubled as a NX tv console controller/second screen if you have one but the NX console itself will work just fine without one using something like the Wii U Pro Controller. If this is what they do then it will be kind of strange for Microsoft to be the only console without such as setup. Guess they could do it with an Xbox phone or something? lol As if the PS4 and Vita combo is such a great investment. The Vita is dead, that's the real LOL that Sony shills try to spin around. If this console and handheld is based on the same architecture and all its games can be scaled to work on either, it could be great as it would increase the support for the handheld, which is in a dying market and is why MS has never fully ventured into it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veiva Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 If by experience you mean usually having to wait for patch #3 before the game can even be played well sure. I'm not sold on that theory. The Xbox 360 and PS3 had their superiority in amount of detail that could be shown onscene, but still had severe restrictions on all that since they had no RAM, so it was a tradeoff. Huh? That's not relevant nor the fault of PC as a platform. And since last generation, Sony and Microsoft consoles have day 1 patches as large as the games themselves. And Nintendo fell into that trap this generation, sadly. For the record, there hasn't been a PC game I've bought, indie or AAA, that had dramatic issues after I installed it. The games that have had these issues were console-first, PC... whenever we get to it. But yea, PC is a worse platform because console developers don't focus on it and their PC releases are simply hacked together console editions, okay. I shouldn't have replied at all, figured you would have some pretentious bottled argument judging by what I replied to. As if the PS4 and Vita combo is such a great investment. The Vita is dead, that's the real LOL that Sony shills try to spin around. If this console and handheld is based on the same architecture and all its games can be scaled to work on either, it could be great as it would increase the support for the handheld, which is in a dying market and is why MS has never fully ventured into it! 50 million 3DS consoles sold isn't a dying market. Nintendo has dominated the handheld gaming market and will continue to do so. Mobile games for phones and tablets are a completely different market than the kind Nintendo is dominating in, and the one Sony has attempted to since PSP. Vita is as much of a failure as the Wii U. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Asmodai MVC Posted October 20, 2015 Author MVC Share Posted October 20, 2015 Problem with PC (as a platform) has generally been inability to make full use of hardware due to platform agnostic APIs. Consoles, prior to last generation, essentially had no operating systems and fully documented hardware (for developers, that is). As a result, a skilled team could push the absolute most out of the hardware, which simply wasn't possible on any PC platform. Agreed, however DX12/Vulkan/Metal go a long way to resolving this on PC. (as you say at the end of the next paragraph) Non-Nintendo consoles in the prior generation abstracted more away. In the current generation, developers don't quite have full access to hardware (it seems the Xbox One required devs to use DirectX 11, which is why DirectX 12 is such a big thing for One devs?). DirectX 12 and Vulkan provide that low-level access to the GPU, kind of like what was on console hardware. The first part of this isn't true for PlayStation. Both the PS3 and PS4 allowed low level access to the hardware from day 1. You are correct however that Xbox One did not and used a flavor of DX11 at launch HOWEVER they've updated that through the XDK updates and that has long sense been resolved. This is one reason why the Xbox One isn't going to see nearly the benefit that people seem to think it is with DX12 because the XBox One already has pretty much everything DX12 brings to PCs via those XDK updates. There is a new API for the ESRAM but that's about it. The Xbox 360 and PS3, on release, were superior, in various respects, to even high-end PC hardware, without considering the low-level access developers had. This generation, the consoles had subpar hardware on release... and subpar development platforms, seemingly. This is true as well. The Xbox 360 and PS3 were both sold at a loss at launch. This was normal in the console industry where the base hardware was sold at a loss at launch to grow the install base and the profit was made via software licensing, peripherals, and with cost reductions of the hardware over the lifetime of the console. Nintendo changed that with the Wii though. Nintendo sold the Wii at a profit so it made money on crap hardware (spec wise) and people ate it up. Both Microsoft and Sony responded by selling the Xbox One and PS4 at near break even or even a slight profit. So as a console gamer you no longer get a deal when buying a console. Now MS had to cut the price of the Xbox One to try to compete with Sony so they may have taken a small loss but they're MS, they can afford to do that. Sony on the other hand is struggling financially and can't even afford to take a loss if they wanted to for any meaningful amount of time. The days where console buyers get more hardware than they paid for are over. I wish it wasn't the case but it is. Why would console developers ever go back to selling at a loss... heck the PS4 is setting sales records as did the Wii and they're both sold at a profit. DirectX 12/Vulkan will be good for PC gamers... but developers will have to cater to console users, regardless. Money speaks the most, and while even a $500 budget gaming PC build is years ahead of current generation consoles, developers don't care and will aim for PS4/One first, resulting in overall subpar potential gaming experiences on all fronts. As far as multi-platform games developers will cater to the weakest link. In this case it's the Xbox One so it will largely define the capabilities of games until next generation. The PS4 isn't THAT much more powerful than the Xbox One so games won't be too subpar for it, they'll just run a few fps faster. PC will be held back as always but there's still a huge leap coming. PCs were held back by the PS3/Xbox 360 and those are DX9 level, essentially 32bit, devices. PC is going to move to 64bit only (because consoles support > 4GB RAM now too) and you'll likely be able to play the same games designed for 1080p on the PS4 at 4k on your PC. There will be platform exclusives that push the limits of their respective hardware but that's the exception not the rule. President Devil 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Devil Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) 50 million 3DS consoles sold isn't a dying market. Nintendo has dominated the handheld gaming market and will continue to do so. Mobile games for phones and tablets are a completely different market than the kind Nintendo is dominating in, and the one Sony has attempted to since PSP. Vita is as much of a failure as the Wii U. Okay, massively shrinking market...compared to the DS, it's not fine and dandy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veiva Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) The first part of this isn't true for PlayStation. Both the PS3 and PS4 allowed low level access to the hardware from day 1. You are correct however that Xbox One did not and used a flavor of DX11 at launch HOWEVER they've updated that through the XDK updates and that has long sense been resolved. This is one reason why the Xbox One isn't going to see nearly the benefit that people seem to think it is with DX12 because the XBox One already has pretty much everything DX12 brings to PCs via those XDK updates. There is a new API for the ESRAM but that's about it. PS3 (and seemingly the PS4) still had more limits on what a developer could do with the hardware than its predecessor (the PS2) because of the OS. I suppose, on reflection, it's more like the hardware has X capabilities, but a certain portion is reserved for the OS, so in the end it wouldn't be a spec a developer could rely on, anyway... All together, you're right :P. edit: Seems there's not a ":P" smiley? Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozukumi Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 As if the PS4 and Vita combo is such a great investment. The Vita is dead, that's the real LOL that Sony shills try to spin around. If this console and handheld is based on the same architecture and all its games can be scaled to work on either, it could be great as it would increase the support for the handheld, which is in a dying market and is why MS has never fully ventured into it! Ha true. The Vita is crap. Sony never really put much effort into it though. It was very expensive thanks to the horrible memory cards used. Also pointless things like the touchpad on the back put the price up for no real reason. Mobile is dying though yeah. It is a shame because I love good portable games and smart phones are not that good for anything other than casual things like Candy Crush. President Devil 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Asmodai MVC Posted October 20, 2015 Author MVC Share Posted October 20, 2015 If this console and handheld is based on the same architecture and all its games can be scaled to work on either, it could be great as it would increase the support for the handheld, which is in a dying market and is why MS has never fully ventured into it! I'm of the belief that MS didn't make an Xbox portable device because they hoped that Windows CE/PocketPC/Windows Mobile/Windows Phone would evolve into their portable gaming device. I still think that's the hope over at MS that at some point people will be playing Xbox Mobile games on Win10+ smartphone devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceelf Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I shouldn't have replied at all, figured you would have some pretentious bottled argument judging by what I replied to. Considering I've been basically saying the same things for five or more years? Sure. Things should be finally improving, so I'm happy. We'll see how long it takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Devil Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm of the belief that MS didn't make an Xbox portable device because they hoped that Windows CE/PocketPC/Windows Mobile/Windows Phone would evolve into their portable gaming device. I still think that's the hope over at MS that at some point people will be playing Xbox Mobile games on Win10+ smartphone devices. That's what is happening with Windows 10 and its Xbox integration. It's only now truly being sought after by MS, unification of all gamers on all its Windows devices through Xbox Live. They need to come with controller support for their mobile devices though, otherwise it will ever remain crappy touch control mobile gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Asmodai MVC Posted October 20, 2015 Author MVC Share Posted October 20, 2015 That's what is happening with Windows 10 and its Xbox integration. It's only now truly being sought after by MS, unification of all gamers on all its Windows devices through Xbox Live. They need to come with controller support for their mobile devices though, otherwise it will ever remain crappy touch control mobile gaming. Right, FINALLY. I'm saying they've been hoping to do that since the original Xbox. Back then they wanted Windows CE to turn into their portable platform but it never did. During Xbox 360 it was Windows Mobile or whatever, etc. etc. Finally, after three generations they look like they may have actually found a way to make it work. Really though it depends on if they can even sell Windows Phone devices in any meaningful numbers. If they still end up under 10% of the mobile market it's still probably not going to take off. I think Nintendo sells far more 3DSs then MS sells Windows Phones... maybe Windows 10 will turn that around... maybe it won't. It should be interesting to see. President Devil 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceelf Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Consider MSes extremely spotty history with small devices up to this point. Before Phone 8 they've had a very long string of disappointments. kozukumi 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunknMunky Veteran Posted October 20, 2015 Veteran Share Posted October 20, 2015 Title changed, topics merged & cleaned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceelf Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I'm sure you know how little I care about the "PC Idiot Race." If not, well, it's kind of obvious. DX12 should make PC gaming amazing in a way it hasn't been in a very long time, but we're still seeing devs using DX9 (even if not many) so we'll see how things go. Didn't occur to me people who don't know me very well might be offended by this, so to wit: I wasn't referring to all PC gamers. I am one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Asmodai MVC Posted October 21, 2015 Author MVC Share Posted October 21, 2015 Here's an image from a Nintendo patent filing showing what I believe is the "dumb" controller for the NX console. That's not the exact hardware, just a patent on the concepts but it shows the controller still has a touch screen (10) like the Wii U (only much smaller), it has dual analog "sticks" (23R and L) and the shoulder buttons have been replaced by clickable wheels? (24R and L). I suspect the button arrangement (27) is a place holder and that the final version will have 4 buttons and not 2. Source (includes other images) So you'd be able to swap this "dumb" controller out and use a NX portable if you had one but I don't see a full feature NX portable being the default controller for the base console as it would just be too expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Eternal Tempest MVC Posted October 21, 2015 MVC Share Posted October 21, 2015 As if the PS4 and Vita combo is such a great investment. The Vita is dead, that's the real LOL that Sony shills try to spin around. If this console and handheld is based on the same architecture and all its games can be scaled to work on either, it could be great as it would increase the support for the handheld, which is in a dying market and is why MS has never fully ventured into it! Sony has classified the vita outside of japan as "Legacy" officially. President Devil 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunknMunky Veteran Posted October 21, 2015 Veteran Share Posted October 21, 2015 Sony has classified the vita outside of japan as "Legacy" officially. What Andy mentioned as ‘legacy platform’ was part of the write-off for PS Vita components for the first generation of the PS Vita, which is no longer available in the market. And he did not directly mean the current PS Vita and PS TV models, which are available in the market. Our portable business will be continued, and many users are now enjoying PlayStation 4 remote play features as well as original PS Vita game titles on PS Vita and PS TV. http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/05/28/sony-clears-ps-vita-legacy-platform-comment-assures-portable-business-will-continue/#/slide/1 +Asmodai 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Eternal Tempest MVC Posted October 21, 2015 MVC Share Posted October 21, 2015 http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/05/28/sony-clears-ps-vita-legacy-platform-comment-assures-portable-business-will-continue/#/slide/1 Didn't realize they reversed the stance. Good information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Devil Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Didn't realize they reversed the stance. Good information. It won't change anything for the Vita though. Support and thus adoption will remain low, which is why NX could be great if it's essentially scaled software on 2 devices. MS should do the same with Windows 10 and its shared API sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Eternal Tempest MVC Posted October 21, 2015 MVC Share Posted October 21, 2015 It won't change anything for the Vita though. Support and thus adoption will remain low, which is why NX could be great if it's essentially scaled software on 2 devices. MS should do the same with Windows 10 and its shared API sets. But at least it's an active supported device, and PlayStation TV compatibility with physical games is still being worked on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Devil Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 But at least it's an active supported device, and PlayStation TV compatibility with physical games is still being worked on. Waste of resources TBH. PSTV sells even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Eternal Tempest MVC Posted October 23, 2015 MVC Share Posted October 23, 2015 Waste of resources TBH. PSTV sells even worse. This just came out, there not spending much resources on it now.Currently no first party atm for vita games by sony. http://kotaku.com/sony-says-it-s-not-currently-developing-any-first-party-1738233609 President Devil 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts