11-year-old charged with murdering 8-year-old after argument about puppies

[Noir Angel]

I can't stand the lack of common sense in my country anymore. So just for the folks with lack of common sense.

Strange, things like this don't happen here. Gun culture might not be solely at fault but it's a contributing factor.

[techbeck]

If Doc's tales are anything to go by, the kid would have already known how to load it and remove the safety. After all, guns are part of US life, right?

Some people train their kids to use weapons a younger ages than 11.  Especially in areas where hunting is a big deal.  And as long as a weapon is in a house, everyone in the house should be trained on the proper handling of the weapon.  Kids, adults...doesnt matter.

[Dick Montage]

The guy wasn't making any sense to me, and seemed insistent to turn this into a "let's ban the guns" soapbox moment (never let a good crisis go to waste etc.) So I tried to switch angles since he seems to think this kid incapable of understanding what he did (or was about to do when he got the gun). I figured if he put himself in place of the parents of the true victim maybe a change in perspective might come, or at least we could go back to discussing the actual issue, which isn't guns, it's that an 11 year old kid murdered an 8 year old. Murder weapon is just that, the murder weapon.

Assuming the details of the story as presented by The Washington Post are true, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the killer. He was described as mean and a bully. Yes his parents are probably to blame for a lot of things, but he made the choice to go get the gun and kill the girl. It wasn't too long ago that boys were considered almost men at his age. He had no respect for human life, and felt justified at killing her or something so menial. And there is nothing wrong with teaching older children how to handle weapons, but respect for the weapons and what they can do has to be taught as well. I was taught by my dad how to fire guns, but we sure got a drilling on how to handle them (never point at another person even unloaded), how to safely fire them, the whole nine yards. And they stayed locked away. But if you teach your kids well, they would know to not to even mess with the weapons, locked or not, without an adult. 

The Jefferson County Sheriff said he is being charged with murder. I agree. I also think the parents should be help accountable for their own negligence.

By the way, if you want to ban guns, first make the White House and Capitol Hill gun-free zones, then we can talk.

 

 

You don't really seem wholly sure what argument you are trying to make here.

[Ulyses]

The guy wasn't making any sense to me, and seemed insistent to turn this into a "let's ban the guns" soapbox moment (never let a good crisis go to waste etc.)

 

What is wrong with having a "ban the guns" side to the story?

 

So I tried to switch angles since he seems to think this kid incapable of understanding what he did (or was about to do when he got the gun).

 

It's not only I, it's an entire legal system and an entire medical system in many civilized countries that thinks so. He will be treated differently, in a civilized manner, according to its level of comprehension. We treat insanity different, and it's much easier to appear insane than to genuinely act like a child.

 

I figured if he put himself in place of the parents of the true victim maybe a change in perspective might come, or at least we could go back to discussing the actual issue, which isn't guns, it's that an 11 year old kid murdered an 8 year old. Murder weapon is just that, the murder weapon.

 

I could not possibly do that. And the police, the judge, the state are also not capable to do that, yet it's in their hands to possibly come up with a punishment which is not harsh enough, as far as the parents of the girl are concerned. I hope the days of lynching in the heat of the moment are rarer and rarer these days, because revenge and justice are not the same thing.

More importantly, it's about guns, full stop. Without the shotgun, it's more likely the boy would've abused the girl in a physical manner, but it's unlikely he would target her using some other weapon or made up weapon to actually kill her. He is not a trained special forces op, let's not pretend or picture a 11 years boy as being a specialized proficient killer. That's fiction.

 

 

 

Assuming the details of the story as presented by The Washington Post are true, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the killer. He was described as mean and a bully. Yes his parents are probably to blame for a lot of things, but he made the choice to go get the gun and kill the girl. It wasn't too long ago that boys were considered almost men at his age. He had no respect for human life, and felt justified at killing her or something so menial. And there is nothing wrong with teaching older children how to handle weapons, but respect for the weapons and what they can do has to be taught as well. I was taught by my dad how to fire guns, but we sure got a drilling on how to handle them (never point at another person even unloaded), how to safely fire them, the whole nine yards. And they stayed locked away. But if you teach your kids well, they would know to not to even mess with the weapons, locked or not, without an adult. 

 

You are continuously making the same wrong assumptions over and over. It's not sympathy I showed here, it's restrain. The boy needs to go through a fair process, regardless of what the article is trying to make you feel like, regardless of what type of person the boy is. Jumping around like savages with words and bellicose intents is not drawing a sane, civilized picture for the rest of us, not directly involved.

 

The Jefferson County Sheriff said he is being charged with murder. I agree. I also think the parents should be help accountable for their own negligence.

 

Everyone agrees with this. 

 

By the way, if you want to ban guns, first make the White House and Capitol Hill gun-free zones, then we can talk.

 

 

And why is that? Are these places enemy hideouts?

[DocM]

 

What is wrong with having a "ban the guns" side to the story?

 

 

Because it's a pointless argument. 

Gun rights are baked into our Constitution's Bill of Rights & culture and it would take either an amendment or Constitutional Convention to change it. Amendments and a CC product would have to be approved by 37 states, and they aren't for tearing into the Bill of Rights.  Neither is Congress. Even when Obama had a veto-proof supermajority in Congress he couldn't pass gun legislation because Democrats wouldn't vote for it either. 

Now look at the/Supreme Court where Justice Sotomayor, an Obama appointee and liberal, is hunting buddies with Justice Scalia, a very conservative Republican. Uh-huh. SCOTUS has repeatedly supported gun rights, even expanding them in the last 10 years. Look up the Heller and McDonald decisions.

Get over it - ain't gonna happen.

What would be more constructive is getting the patients & privacy rights people to move on walking back the 1970's laws and attitudes which prevent the NICS instant background check system from getting reports about troubled people, the subjects of local protective orders etc. Also helpful would be more resources for NICS. The vast majority of mass/spree killers would have been in such a system and prevented from purchasing a new firearm.

As to used firearms, once the above is fixed I'd support creating an NICS app and require its use for used long gun sales. We can run credit cards for private transactions via a mobile device so this shouldn't be too tough. For handguns I like Michigans system: a private pistol sale has to be completed at a gun dealer using a PD issued purchase permit, which goes through both NICS and the state court records.

 

 

[Ulyses]

On one hand, you tone seems tyranical in your determination to keep the guns widespread, despite a significantly large number of people against them. On the other hand, you seem desperate you may be subject to become a gun advocate minority in a foreseeable future. Neither work well if you still want to belong.

[DocM]

Neither. I'm just telling you the facts on the ground and you're ignoring them for a vision of butterflies and unicorns. 

[Ulyses]

The time when you, personally, will grow tiresome of this gun owning rights crap, may be sooner than you think. This story itself is witness and proof, the boy's father no doubt had a stance similar to yours. I very much doubt he is still in a mood to belittle it with "butterflies and unicorns" nonsense. The boy's father had children and guns before he had a chance to really grow up. The gun is one thing that could've been prevented in a positive manner.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Ulyses

[FloatingFatMan]

The time when you, personally, will grow tiresome of this gun owning rights crap, may be sooner than you think. This story itself is witness and proof, the boy's father no doubt had a stance similar to yours. I very much doubt he is still in a mood to belittle it with "butterflies and unicorns" nonsense. The boy's father had children and guns before he had a chance to really grow up. The gun is one thing that could've been prevented in a positive manner.

On this I agree with you.  I only hope the day when average Americans finally have enough of these senseless deaths to do something about it arrives soon.

[techbeck]

Boy who killed girl over puppy got gun from unlocked closet, sheriff says

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/08/us/girl-killed-puppy-in-tennessee/index.html

The boy used his father's 12-gauge shotgun, which he got from an unlocked closet, the sheriff told the paper.

He is being held on a first-degree murder charge in a juvenile detention center. The center's superintendent, Richard Bean, said the boy is the youngest held there on a murder charge in his 44-year career. Bean described him as "very tiny," weighing about 55 pounds.

He is in a regular "pod" that holds up to 16 other juveniles between ages 12 and 17.

[domboy]

What is wrong with having a "ban the guns" side to the story?

DocM already answer that well.

It's not only I, it's an entire legal system and an entire medical system in many civilized countries that thinks so. He will be treated differently, in a civilized manner, according to its level of comprehension.

.

You are continuously making the same wrong assumptions over and over. It's not sympathy I showed here, it's restrain. The boy needs to go through a fair process, regardless of what the article is trying to make you feel like, regardless of what type of person the boy is. Jumping around like savages with words and bellicose intents is not drawing a sane, civilized picture for the rest of us, not directly involved.

I didn't say he shouldn't be treated fairly, but you seemed to be implying he is incapable of understanding what he did was wrong, and should not be held responsible. There were several posters in this thread questioning whether an 11 year old is actually capable of understanding murder is wrong or if he understood what he was doing and so on, which I disagree with. Though later in your response to my last post you say you agree that he should be charged for murder, so apparently we had a case of miscommunication, and I apologize for not understanding your posts. I'm not trying to deny him due process at all. But I do want to see justice for the family of the dead girl.

And why is that? Are these places enemy hideouts?

The White House etc uses guns to protect the people there. From my perspective my family is just as valuable as the president (no offense to the president intended). If Mr. President and our government want to ban guns, let them be the first to lay them down, and show how well these "gun free zones" actually work. Problem is they don't. And gun bans will only remove weapons from honest people. Yes it may lessen situations like this from happening as often, but somebody that has murder in their heart will find a weapon. The problem is the crazies, not the guns, which was my point about teaching our children (and adults!) to respect weapons and people. This whole situation could have been avoided if the gun have been locked away (the parent's being responsible for the weapon), and the child also been taught not only respect that as well (not brandishing a weapon without his parent's permission), but value the life of the girl he killed. Otherwise we will have to start banning a lot more than guns.

Edited October 9, 2015 by domboy