Doctor Dragged From United Plane After Computer "Solves" Overbooking Problem

[Emn1ty]

9 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

OR the staff that were supposed to replace the paying customers could have gone on a different flight, even another airline.

 

Stop trying to justify what UA did.  They had NO legal recourse for removing that passenger by force.  He'd paid for his seat, they'd accepted that by allowing him to TAKE the seat. Later choosing to remove him is THEM breaking the contract, not the passenger.

They had a lot of recourse as they followed thier policy. The only difference was people were already on the plane. They can argue that given the situation they still followed protocol outlined in their contract of carriage.

 

I'm not on thier side, but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge they aren't entirely in the wrong either. They offered substantial compensation, no one volunteered. They clearly stated seats would be selected at random and this guy decided he didn't like that. United Airlines then removed him. I agree that he shouldn't have been beaten over it but United did need to resolve the issue else the rest of the passengers who are also paying customers would have been delayed.

 

And keep in mind that even if the employees got in another flight, they'd also be delaying other paying customers. The idea that his money is somehow more important than others is kind of ridiculous. This wasn't about kicking out a paying customer for flight crew, but maintain schedule for their service.

 

Still, UA screwed this up big time. I'm not arguing against that. Just that people seem to want to put the blame for this confrontation entirely on thier shoulders when it's actually this guy's fault for being unreasonable and the security's fault for being far too violent with him.

[SoCalRox]

On 4/10/2017 at 8:19 PM, Joe User said:

 

LOL, no.

 

Read your contract. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/04/11/united-ceo-employees-followed-procedures-flier-belligerent/100317166/

 

http://thefederalist.com/2017/04/11/did-united-airlines-violate-its-own-contract-by-forcing-that-passenger-off-the-plane/

[patseguin Global Moderator]

Have there been any interviews/accounts from the other passengers? I still find it hard to believe that this guy wasn't being combative. You don't just walk up and knock out someone who is just sitting there doing absolutely nothing. What I mean, is did something happen like a security guard grabbed his arm to help him out of the seat and he started swinging? Had they not gotten him off the plane, it would still be sitting there as I type this right?

[ATLien_0]

3 minutes ago, patseguin said:

Have there been any interviews/accounts from the other passengers? I still find it hard to believe that this guy wasn't being combative. You don't just walk up and knock out someone who is just sitting there doing absolutely nothing. What I mean, is did something happen like a security guard grabbed his arm to help him out of the seat and he started swinging? Had they not gotten him off the plane, it would still be sitting there as I type this right?

Others have said he wasn't cooperating with them and I agree with him for making a fuss. As soon as he started resisting to get up after being asked multiple times, thats when it appears they got forceful . But really If I were in his shoes I would have made a fuss also, its not like there was a security reason for him to be forced off. 

[The Evil Overlord]

4 minutes ago, patseguin said:

Have there been any interviews/accounts from the other passengers? I still find it hard to believe that this guy wasn't being combative. You don't just walk up and knock out someone who is just sitting there doing absolutely nothing. What I mean, is did something happen like a security guard grabbed his arm to help him out of the seat and he started swinging? Had they not gotten him off the plane, it would still be sitting there as I type this right?

Unless the plane has CCTV, and recorded the whole incident, we'll never know. (And those rarely get released to the public anyway)

 

I don't want to presume, but recently, after seeing needless shootings (again, I wasn't there so cannot say with any degree of certainty) it seems like too many 'bully' types have been given power, and appear to be abusing it.

(Trying to stay somewhat vague)

[+Fulcrum Subscriber¹]

9 hours ago, Brys said:

Hahaha, took us 6 pages to finally apply Godwin's law...

Which is fine, if it helps you remember there was a time when people were nicely asked to leave their domicile with the nice Aryan member, and soon found themselves in concentration camps.

 

The actual point you may have missed, is that this man violated no laws, and asking him to automatically defer to authority is actually not the train of thought that benefits a free and open society.

 

Corporations are a public trust, this airline policy is more of a tyranny than for public good.

 

Just think how hard it is for someone to start a competing airline business, the regulations, licenses (limited), there is a huge public trust that these businesses will serve the interests of the public. Lot of tax dollars to keep it running.

 

If they can treat people like this without impunity, overbook flights, replace sitting passengers for their own employee benefits... They are not living up to their charter.

 

Do we wait for the government who is lobbied to the teeth to make things right?

 

I have lost my confidence in this system. But you may feel free to trust the first guy with any kind of badge.

 

[Joe User]

1 hour ago, SoCalRox said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/04/11/united-ceo-employees-followed-procedures-flier-belligerent/100317166/

 

http://thefederalist.com/2017/04/11/did-united-airlines-violate-its-own-contract-by-forcing-that-passenger-off-the-plane/

Failed to comply with a directive from the flight crew, which is so generic it means, 'because we said so'.  I don't agree with it, I'm just saying that's what it is.  

 

To say this could have been handled better is the understatement of the year.

[Emn1ty]

3 hours ago, wv@gt said:

Others have said he wasn't cooperating with them and I agree with him for making a fuss. As soon as he started resisting to get up after being asked multiple times, thats when it appears they got forceful . But really If I were in his shoes I would have made a fuss also, its not like there was a security reason for him to be forced off. 

Interestingly enough none of the other passengers volunteered to give up their seat in his place. Instead they just got their phones out and recorded it or sat silently. All this outrage, but no action.

 

2 hours ago, Joe User said:

Failed to comply with a directive from the flight crew, which is so generic it means, 'because we said so'.  I don't agree with it, I'm just saying that's what it is.  

 

To say this could have been handled better is the understatement of the year.

Also, as it was airport security that removed him from the plane any resistance on his part (which means not going peacefully) could be argued as a Federal offense as they are Federal law enforcement officers. So this guy did break the law by not cooperating with the security officer.

 

3 hours ago, The Evil Overlord said:

I don't want to presume, but recently, after seeing needless shootings (again, I wasn't there so cannot say with any degree of certainty) it seems like too many 'bully' types have been given power, and appear to be abusing it.

Or everyone has a phone or someway to record things these days so we're just seeing more of it become state/national news. I doubt this is happening anymore now that it was 20 years ago (relative to the number of encounters). We just happen to have the ability to capture them all now with smart phones.

[patseguin Global Moderator]

6 hours ago, The Evil Overlord said:

Unless the plane has CCTV, and recorded the whole incident, we'll never know. (And those rarely get released to the public anyway)

 

I don't want to presume, but recently, after seeing needless shootings (again, I wasn't there so cannot say with any degree of certainty) it seems like too many 'bully' types have been given power, and appear to be abusing it.

(Trying to stay somewhat vague)

I read somewhere that we are not getting the full story. Apparently, he initially deplaned as instructed. At the last minute, he changed his mind and ran past all the agents and crew back onto the plane and into the seat. At that point, he violated federal law and had to be forcibly removed when he refused to get out. I also saw a new video where he is arguing with the officials and saying he would have to be dragged out. It seems like he violated a federal law by coming back on the plane and then had to be dragged out, as he requested, otherwise the pane and all its passengers would just sit there till the end of time. The only part I am unclear on is how he got bloodied in the process.

 

This whole thing reminds me of those cop block videos you see on YouTube where people refuse lawful orders and expect to be catered to. Could you imagine the uproar if they gave in to him and picked someone else to get off the plane?

[Jim K Global Moderator]

12 minutes ago, patseguin said:

I read somewhere that we are not getting the full story. Apparently, he initially deplaned as instructed. At the last minute, he changed his mind and ran past all the agents and crew back onto the plane and into the seat. At that point, he violated federal law and had to be forcibly removed when he refused to get out. I also saw a new video where he is arguing with the officials and saying he would have to be dragged out. It seems like he violated a federal law by coming back on the plane and then had to be dragged out, as he requested, otherwise the pane and all its passengers would just sit there till the end of time. The only part I am unclear on is how he got bloodied in the process.

 

This whole thing reminds me of those cop block videos you see on YouTube where people refuse lawful orders and expect to be catered to. Could you imagine the uproar if they gave in to him and picked someone else to get off the plane?

No...he initially volunteered ... until he found out the next flight wouldn't be until the next day.  Later he was voluntold and subsequently beat up.

[Emn1ty]

1 hour ago, Jim K said:

No...he initially volunteered ... until he found out the next flight wouldn't be until the next day.  Later he was voluntold and subsequently beat up.

That's still not the same as what this story broke as. He accepted without knowing when the next flight would be; that's his own problem.

The more research done into this guy, the more and more he looks less like a victim and more like a brat throwing a tantrum.

[Joe User]

4 hours ago, Emn1ty said:

Also, as it was airport security that removed him from the plane any resistance on his part (which means not going peacefully) could be argued as a Federal offense as they are Federal law enforcement officers. So this guy did break the law by not cooperating with the security officer.

 

Depends. I'm going to say 'violently escalate the situation' is not proper procedure for airport security when dealing with a non-violent individual.  Security is only supposed to use necessary force, so they're really close to an assault charge, and I'm going to say they're most likely going to get sued.

[Joe User]

2 hours ago, patseguin said:

I read somewhere that we are not getting the full story. Apparently, he initially deplaned as instructed. At the last minute, he changed his mind and ran past all the agents and crew back onto the plane and into the seat. At that point, he violated federal law and had to be forcibly removed when he refused to get out. I also saw a new video where he is arguing with the officials and saying he would have to be dragged out. It seems like he violated a federal law by coming back on the plane and then had to be dragged out, as he requested, otherwise the pane and all its passengers would just sit there till the end of time. The only part I am unclear on is how he got bloodied in the process.

Strange, I heard the opposite, they told him that he's in an economy seat and they go first. That's why I would like to see official testimony before making judgement.

 

I'm guessing he got bloodied when the guards hit his face against the seat rest.

 

[Jim K Global Moderator]

24 minutes ago, Emn1ty said:

That's still not the same as what this story broke as. He accepted without knowing when the next flight would be; that's his own problem.

The more research done into this guy, the more and more he looks less like a victim and more like a brat throwing a tantrum.

It is the same as the story broke.  The only thing different is that he initially volunteered ... probably thinking there would be a later flight (they were scheduled for departure at 1740)... not a later flight as in almost 24 hours later.  He was later selected for involuntary removal ... for which he was obviously upset about (apparently he had patients the next day).

 

More "research" ???  Did that "research" help you justify violent means to a non-violent passenger ... thus "less like a victim." 

[Circaflex]

1 minute ago, Jim K said:

It is the same as the story broke.  The only thing different is that he initially volunteered ... probably thinking there would be a later flight (they were scheduled for departure at 1740)... not a later flight as in almost 24 hours later.

 

More "research" ???  Did that "research" help you justify violent means to a non-violent passenger ... thus "less like a victim." 

That is exactly how I understood the situation. Him and his wife originally volunteered, however, once he was told the next flight was not until the next day he realized this was not an option due to his previous commitments with the patients back home.

[Gone]

On 4/10/2017 at 6:26 PM, Jim K said:

There is absolutely no reason for this gentleman to have been forcibly dragged out, bloodied up and ultimately taken to the hospital...all because (really) United overbooked their flight.  They could have handled this so much better ... I do not blame the victim at all in this.

 

Major PR hit for United and hopefully they will change their practice ... though I doubt it as in a few days this will be "yesterday's" news and be forgotten.  

 

This should never happen to a passenger ... simply because the plane is overbooked.

 

 

Saw this on Twitter ...

 

 

Fitting.

Lol, okay you just made my day.

[Gone]

Apparently they were only a 4 hour car drive from the destination air port. I guess it would kill United to drive the employees in a private van, which would be way cheaper than paying a customer 400% for a ticket. 

 

I worked at an airport, they should have been able to plan this out way in advance.

[Circaflex]

1 minute ago, SpeedyTheSnail said:

Apparently they were only a 4 hour car drive from the destination air port. I guess it would kill United to drive the employees in a private van, which would be way cheaper than paying a customer 400% for a ticket. 

 

I worked at an airport, they should have been able to plan this out way in advance.

I also read that small tidbit and thought it was strange that the United employees were not put on a charter bus or even another airline. I would assume, airlines would occasionally help others out as a friends type of deal.

[The Evil Overlord]

1 hour ago, Circaflex said:

I also read that small tidbit and thought it was strange that the United employees were not put on a charter bus or even another airline. I would assume, airlines would occasionally help others out as a friends type of deal.

I was thinking roughly along those lines, I find it strange that the staff wouldn't have been allowed to fly an empty seat out of courtesy on a different aircraft, or even drive (get driven to) wherever it was they were going if it indeed was only a 4 hour drive....

Argument sake, 4 hours, 55 mph, approx. 200 miles, = a tank of fuel vs the cost of a rental car, unless one was already available and needed to be transported to another destination anyway (happens sometimes in the UK so the rental place will consider paying the employee to take the car as they were headed that way anyway) still would have worked out cheaper than the comp for the paying passenger....

[Emn1ty]

1 hour ago, Jim K said:

It is the same as the story broke.  The only thing different is that he initially volunteered ... probably thinking there would be a later flight (they were scheduled for departure at 1740)... not a later flight as in almost 24 hours later.  He was later selected for involuntary removal ... for which he was obviously upset about (apparently he had patients the next day).

 

More "research" ???  Did that "research" help you justify violent means to a non-violent passenger ... thus "less like a victim." 

• He's had his doctor's license suspended and later surrendered after trading drugs for sex.
• He's only authorized to work as a doctor for one day a week with another doctor supervising.
• He wasn't just removed from the flight, he initially volunteered.
• He then reboarded, was given every chance to leave peacefully and chose not to. He was even told that security would be federally obligated to remove him from the plane by force and he said "drag me out, I'll sue" (paraphrasing).
• He then resisted a federal security officer, which is illegal and constitutes grounds for arrest (which the officer also made known to the man before he was forcibly removed).

Everyone is very willing to be on his side, but the more information we get on the circumstances of this encounter the more it appears to be the passenger's own fault than anything to do with United Airlines. This guy was asking for it, baiting it even. Reminds me of the "sovereign citizen" morons who don't comply with cops because they think they don't have the authority to make them comply.

[The Evil Overlord]

20 hours ago, Emn1ty said:

Interestingly enough none of the other passengers volunteered to give up their seat in his place. Instead they just got their phones out and recorded it or sat silently. All this outrage, but no action.

On this instance, they probably did what was best, as if more passengers decided to take their outrage and use it to be 'disruptive' and escalate beyond any reasonable 'protest' level (even if non violent) the pilot would have simply called off flying quoting some sort of safety regulation, and no one would be going anywhere on that flight. But again, not trained in avionics in any way, I'm a truck driver by profession, and if I'm not comfortable with my load, (passengers or goods) I can refuse responsibility for it.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

4 minutes ago, Emn1ty said:

• He's had his doctor's license suspended and later surrendered after trading drugs for sex.
• He's only authorized to work as a doctor for one day a week with another doctor supervising.
• He wasn't just removed from the flight, he initially volunteered.
• He then reboarded, was given every chance to leave peacefully and chose not to. He was even told that security would be federally obligated to remove him from the plane by force and he said "drag me out, I'll sue" (paraphrasing).
• He then resisted a federal security officer, which is illegal and constitutes grounds for arrest (which the officer also made known to the man before he was forcibly removed).

Everyone is very willing to be on his side, but the more information we get on the circumstances of this encounter the more it appears to be the passenger's own fault than anything to do with United Airlines. This guy was asking for it, baiting it even. Reminds me of the "sovereign citizen" morons who don't comply with cops because they think they don't have the authority to make them comply.

• He's had his doctor's license suspended and later surrendered after trading drugs for sex.

I had a longer response ... but it isn't worth it.  Though I lol'd at this ... as if it has some relevance to what happened.

[Emn1ty]

2 minutes ago, Jim K said:

• He's had his doctor's license suspended and later surrendered after trading drugs for sex.

I had a longer response ... but it isn't worth it.  Though I lol'd at this ... as if it has some relevance to what happened.

Except that people here have made the point that preventing him from taking his flight could endanger lives (as he is a doctor)... which is just not the case given the situation he's currently in.

[The Evil Overlord]

16 hours ago, Emn1ty said:

He's had his doctor's license suspended and later surrendered after trading drugs for sex.

I was going to not post, but so what? I could be a mass murderer, which I am not, that doesn't have any bearing on the situation, that's only there to change public opinion and be less sympathetic towards him, lets face it, no one's an angel, we've all done something wrong in our lifetime, Ok not as BAD as what he did, his history, to me, that's for another discussion. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tear anyone down, I just don't see what his history had to do with him getting beaten and removed off of a flight at this moment in time. (as I said to Pat) now, had he been an absolute dick, and deliberately interfered with other passengers, and staff were forced to Taser him out of the plane, I'd stand with you.

 

15 hours ago, Emn1ty said:

Except that people here have made the point that preventing him from taking his flight could endanger lives (as he is a doctor)... which is just not the case given the situation he's currently in.

I understand what you're saying, he was using an unjustifiable excuse to stay on the plane.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

8 minutes ago, Emn1ty said:

Except that people here have made the point that preventing him from taking his flight could endanger lives... which is just not the case given the situation he's currently in.

He still had patients scheduled...digging up his past, and irrelevant dirt, is a bit low.  But I get it ... you feel the actions of United and security was warranted.  I disagree however ... as no passenger should be sent to the hospital for, what is ultimately, the airlines MISTAKE.