At least 17 dead in Florida school shooting, law enforcement says

[Andre S. Veteran]

40 minutes ago, DevTech said:

In every civilized country, except the U.S., children get treated. Hence NO crazy mass shootings.

 

That would be amazing if it was true. Unfortunately access to mental health care remains limited and stigmatized in most countries. The US is not doing that much worse than others in that regard I believe.

[DevTech]

7 minutes ago, sc302 said:

Not at all what I was getting at.  

 

Lack of imagination at its finest here 

I am interested to the extent that I can continue to focus on tragedy without mental overload in exploring ideas  or at least pondering ideas that could help reduce death and suffering.

 

It is perhaps unkind that I am not focusing on your personal journey, but instead zeroed in on the fact that the school environment itself is a contributing factor in these mass school shootings that nobody ever talks about, so you sparked what I perceived as a useful line of thought.

 

Sorry bout that.

 

[DevTech]

18 minutes ago, Andre S. said:

That would be amazing if it was true. Unfortunately access to mental health care remains limited and stigmatized in most countries. The US is not doing that much worse than others in that regard I believe.

I believe that what you believe in that regard is not correct, but the subject is complex and we unavoidably reduce it to over simplified comments in these forum discussions. 

 

Michael Moore has covered the health care systems of other countries in good detail in his "Where To Invade Next" documentary.

 

Edit: I mentioned the wrong documentary. The correct one is Sicko.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicko

 

[P.M.K]

20 hours ago, techbeck said:

Nope.  And as long as they are responsible, I do not see a problem.  Open carry is allowed and these shootings are done by cowards who hide their weapons until the time when they way to inflict damage.  Not the gun you see that you have to worry about.

OK, 'open carry' is allowed, but why do people do it?? Is it a status thing?? Look at me I have a gun on my back I'm cool??

[jnelsoninjax]

Everyone should sign this petition for one of the victims, Peter Wang, a member of the JROTC program, to be buried with full military honors. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-cadet-peter-wang-receive-full-honors-military-burial

[LOC Veteran]

Yeah I signed that as soon as I saw it yesterday. I very rarely sign petitions since they basically never work - but this one can and its totally worth it.

[DocM]

9 hours ago, P.M.K said:

OK, 'open carry' is allowed, but why do people do it?? Is it a status thing?? Look at me I have a gun on my back I'm cool??

 

We have apex predators in MI, some with 4 legs and many with 2 - and the latter travel. 

 

Open carry is allowed, even in the State Capitol - no permit required. Concealed carry allowed with a permit. Stand Your Ground laws, Castle Doctrine, the whole deal.

 

Guns aren't that unusual here. Many in the exurbs or rural areas walk to hunting sites with a rifle or shotgun over their shoulder and a pistol on their hip. Many fishermen carry a "kit gun." Doesn't even draw much attention.

 

When wearing light clothing carrying at all means the firearm is visible because most are "lumpy," especially revolvers and SIG Sauers. Kinda hard to cover a S&W or Ruger revolver, SIG P320, or P250 when you're wearing a t-shirt and lightweight pants, so cut the pretense. 

 

My wife & daughter have it easier; they wear garter holsters under their skirts, or carry compact firearms in bra or under-shirt holsters.

 

Farmers and other outside workers frequently carry a sidearm because of aggressive wildlife; packs of feral dogs  (dumped by careless humans), black bear, wild hogs, mountain lions, coyotes, coywolves, and in fall rutting buck deer  weighing up to to 400 lbs. Antlered deer have killed people here.

 

Just going outside here in the SW Detroit suburbs puts you within a few miles of filmed mountain lion sightings, and much of the other wildlife listed. Rabid critters too.

 

Then there are the 2 legged predators.

Edited February 20, 2018 by DocM

[Luc2k]

On 19/02/2018 at 10:39 PM, DocM said:

Nothing any kid with access to Google can't discover. The days of "double-secret info" died with the first internet site.

Sure, but what is the point of posting stuff like that in these threads. To me it just looks like wanting to show off you knowledge/experience, because it doesn't look like the detailed descriptions and examples serve any purpose most of the time. I think it's safe to say everyone who has been a member here for at least a few months already knows that you're able to turn someone into a better, more efficient shooter, however reading on how a mass murderer could have improved his kill count in a thread about a shooting is rather jarring.

[DocM]

11 minutes ago, Luc2k said:

Sure, but what is the point of posting stuff like that in these threads. 

For some I was countering incorrect data & assumptions, for others I was answering a question.

 

Be glad I didn't share the really tough stuff. What I did share has been in newspapers.

[Luc2k]

15 minutes ago, DocM said:

For some I was countering incorrect data & assumptions, for others I was answering a question.

 

Be glad I didn't share the really tough stuff. What I did share has been in newspapers.

I get that, but some of the posts do go beyond. I said my piece, do with it what you will.

 

Anyway, I doubt anything will change in the eternal struggle of gun control and mental health. On the plus side (/s), some politicians are blaming violent video games (and movies) again.

[wakjak]

Florida as a state is on its own level of stupid. 

 

 Florida House declares pornography as a health risk

 

 

Meanwhile.... 

 

 Days after high school shooting, Florida House votes against ban on assault rifles

 

Less than a week after 17 people were fatally shot at a Florida high school, the state House has voted down a motion to take up a bill that would ban assault rifles, effectively killing the measure for this session.

The motion failed by a 36-71 vote.

 

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/days-after-high-school-shooting-florida-house-votes-against-ban-on-assault-rifles

 

So it's "hands off your pecker, hands off my guns" 

 

Priorities. 

[DevTech]

22 hours ago, Luc2k said:

Sure, but what is the point of posting stuff like that in these threads. To me it just looks like wanting to show off you knowledge/experience, because it doesn't look like the detailed descriptions and examples serve any purpose most of the time. I think it's safe to say everyone who has been a member here for at least a few months already knows that you're able to turn someone into a better, more efficient shooter, however reading on how a mass murderer could have improved his kill count in a thread about a shooting is rather jarring.

 

22 hours ago, DocM said:

For some I was countering incorrect data & assumptions, for others I was answering a question.

 

Be glad I didn't share the really tough stuff. What I did share has been in newspapers.

It's the internet. If you don't want to read uncomfortable stuff, cancel your internet service.

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

I am quite capable of reading about how a mass killer could have done better since it is data to feed the thought process. For example, how badly do mass killers perform compared to a trained soldier and does that provide any insight into the forethought these sick people put into their crime.  The media has a huge focus on the number of guns they often own, but they can use only one at a time so what exactly decides the mass murderer's selection of weapon, magazines etc and do they use it poorly? Do they do more damage with handguns? etc etc.

 

Without in-depth analysis, every single discussion will degrade to finger pointing and name calling around enacting gun control laws.

 

I don't own a gun but that does not mean I shouldn't make an effort to be informed about them. 

 

I may not agree with some amount of what @DocM has to say in the opinion category but I appreciate his hard work tremendously to dig out information and provide it to us. I for one, would like him to not hold back on his information. It's the internet and we are all trained by now to skip past stuff we might find disturbing. 

 

@DocM is a huge asset to the forums and I am very thankful he helps out with his research and information. Keep up the good work please!

 

[Luc2k]

3 minutes ago, DevTech said:

 

snip

 

I think you lost the plot.

[DevTech]

9 minutes ago, Luc2k said:

I think you lost the plot.

You want @DocM to Self Censor himself more than he is currently doing.

 

I am saying go the other way to total Freedom Of Information.

 

Both viewpoints are widely held in our civilization and I respect your desire to be "respectful" of certain topics, and I appreciate the concern that you express and I don't agree with it, so I offerred up a contrary opinion for people to consider.

 

The children's book was just my often failing attempt at lightening the mood with a bit of humor.

 

[Mockingbird]

The right-wing apparently found a new conspiracy.

 

Supposedly, kids who appeared on TV are not really students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, but are actors!

 

 

[Nogib]

2 hours ago, wakjak said:

Florida as a state is on its own level of stupid. 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile.... 

 

 

 

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/days-after-high-school-shooting-florida-house-votes-against-ban-on-assault-rifles

 

So it's "hands off your pecker, hands off my guns" 

 

Priorities. 

Well, I'd have to see the exactly language in it but don't think trying to haphazardly ram something through as fast as possible that hadn't yet been fully developed was the best idea.  Smacks more of a posturing move by those dems trying to score brownie points than putting forth a well thought out and cohesive bill.  Legislating solely by emotion is grossly unwise.  As are knee-jerk attempts like this was.

[wakjak]

24 minutes ago, Nogib said:

knee-jerk attempts like this was

How many mass murders does it take to stop being "knee jerk"? 

 

The only reason it is happening this way is because the idiot Republicans who hold office can only say one thing after a mass shooting. 

 

"now is not the right time to talk about gun control... This ad has been bought and paid for by the NRA" 

 

That last sentence was my own addition just to clarify. 

[macrosslover]

44 minutes ago, wakjak said:

How many mass murders does it take to stop being "knee jerk"? 

 

The only reason it is happening this way is because the idiot Republicans who hold office can only say one thing after a mass shooting. 

 

"now is not the right time to talk about gun control... This ad has been bought and paid for by the NRA" 

 

That last sentence was my own addition just to clarify. 

Even if someone agrees with you that there should be "more" gun control, there is really no concept of a law that would have stopped him from being able to legally purchase a gun.  Even if you banned all rifles, he would have used a shotgun or a handgun, then what?  If you said it in an earlier post, I didn't see, but what is your idea for a plan to stop something like this from happening again?

[techbeck]

I think it is funny that more laws are being discussed when the laws in place today are not followed or enforced.   Or the officials that are supposed to protect the public, ignore obvious warning signs.

[wakjak]

13 minutes ago, macrosslover said:

Even if someone agrees with you that there should be "more" gun control, there is really no concept of a law that would have stopped him from being able to legally purchase a gun.  Even if you banned all rifles, he would have used a shotgun or a handgun, then what?  If you said it in an earlier post, I didn't see, but what is your idea for a plan to stop something like this from happening again?

I aware that nothing could have been done at the time... I've actually posted that exact thing. They couldn't take his guns from him. They were legally bought. 

 

They can however bring legislation that makes it more difficult for someone like him to purchase firearms in the first place. 

8 minutes ago, techbeck said:

I think it is funny that more laws are being discussed when the laws in place today are not followed or enforced.   Or the officials that are supposed to protect the public, ignore obvious warning signs.

So what you're both suggesting is... Now isn't the time to think about gun control laws? 

 

Gotcha. 

[techbeck]

1 minute ago, wakjak said:

 

So what you're both suggesting is... Now isn't the time to think about gun control laws? 

 

Gotcha. 

Putting words in my mouth and assuming?....gotcha

 

[macrosslover]

1 minute ago, wakjak said:

 

So what you're both suggesting is... Now isn't the time to think about gun control laws? 

 

Gotcha. 

Where did you read that?  I simply asked what could be done, what's your idea to stop this?

[wakjak]

1 minute ago, macrosslover said:

Where did you read that?  I simply asked what could be done, what's your idea to stop this?

Who said anything about stopping it? They need to talk about it to change it. Instead they just parrot the same lines of "now is not the time to talk about gun control." 

 

2 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Putting words in my mouth and assuming?....gotcha

 

Not at all. 

 

11 minutes ago, techbeck said:

I think it is funny that more laws are being discussed when the laws in place today are not followed or enforced. 

 So what's your suggestion? Never talk about new laws for guns? That would seem like a do nothing action to me. So no, I did not put words into your mouth. 

 

 

[techbeck]

4 minutes ago, wakjak said:

Who said anything about stopping it? 

 

Not at all. 

 

 So what's your suggestion? Never talk about new laws for guns? That would seem like a do nothing action to me. So no, I did not put words into your mouth. 

Considering that I have said many times on this site that laws need to change but I just dont know exactly what....yea, you are putting words in my mouth.  You can institute all the laws in the world, but little follows or enforced them, you have accomplished nothing.  New laws....better make sure people follow them and the old.  FBI ######ed up royally here but little want to discuss that .

[macrosslover]

2 minutes ago, wakjak said:

Who said anything about stopping it? They need to talk about it to change it. Instead they just parrot the same lines of "now is not the time to talk about gun control." 

 

Not at all. 

 

 So what's your suggestion? Never talk about new laws for guns? That would seem like a do nothing action to me. So no, I did not put words into your mouth. 

 

 

I'm asking something simple, change what from what or to what?  What do you think is wrong with the current laws that could/should be changed to hopefully prevent something like this from happening again?  Rather than attacking Republicans because you say they are always saying "it's too soon to talk about gun control", I'm asking what your idea or do you know of a plan to control guns.  Ideally one that would have stopped this massacre.