Mollie Tibbetts's disappearance has small Iowa town on edge

[FloatingFatMan]

2 minutes ago, DConnell said:

And what we're just saying, because of their illegal status, because they skipped the line and the evaluation, we have no way of knowing that! (I freely admit the process will not guarantee an immigrant is "safe" but it's better than just letting everyone in unchecked.)

This guy apparently has no prior record, so no evaluation short of long term psyche eval (which no one does) would have found a problem anyway, so once again, his being an illegal immigrant is irrelevant.

 

[DConnell Member]

2 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Again, all your argument does is trying to equate his status as a murderer and probably rapist, to his being illegal. One has nothing to do with the other and doesn't even need to be said.

 

It's just the same as the mainstream media saying a gay man robbed a store, or a black man robbed a store. The only relevant part of the information is that a man robbed a store, the rest is just trying to connect the two in some way as if one causes the other.

No, actually it doesn't.

 

I am saying that they've already broken the law, and we have no way of knowing how extreme a lawbreaker they are. They might never go any further than what is necessary to stay here (and in most cases likely won't). They might become the next serial killer. Who knows? Not the authorities, certainly, because they never got the chance to evaluate this person.

 

You're expecting us to treat them as honest when they've already proven otherwise. Yeah, the vast majority aren't like this guy.  But that doesn't negate the fact that they're still criminals.

[DConnell Member]

10 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

This guy apparently has no prior record, so no evaluation short of long term psyche eval (which no one does) would have found a problem anyway, so once again, his being an illegal immigrant is irrelevant.

 

Once again, you're ignoring the fact that if he hadn't been here, he couldn't have killed Mollie. So while his being a murderer has nothing to do with being an illegal, his having the opportunity to commit this particular murder is entirely due to that status.

 

Again, why should the US be expected to take on other countries' garbage? And, no, I'm not saying that all immigrants or even all illegal immigrants are garbage. But you can't deny that this guy is!

 

And while he might have passed the evaluation and gotten in, that's not guaranteed. Are you honestly saying that because the system isn't foolproof it shouldn't be used?

[FloatingFatMan]

1 minute ago, DConnell said:

Once again, you're ignoring the fact that if he hadn't been here, he couldn't have killed Mollie. So while his being a murderer has nothing to do with being an illegal, his having the opportunity to commit this particular murder is entirely due to that status.

 

Again, why should the US be expected to take on other countries' garbage? And, no, I'm not saying that all immigrants or even all illegal immigrants are garbage. But you can't deny that this guy is!

I'm not denying what he is at all, I'm just saying that him being illegally in the US doesn't have a damned thing to him being a murderer.  It's just as likely a natural born citizen of the US could have done it, and indeed, many of them do.

 

Again. His status as a murderer doesn't have a thing to do with his status as an illegal immigrant.  One does not equal the other. A does not equal B.

 

 

[+primortal Subscriber²]

13 minutes ago, DConnell said:

So while his being a murderer has nothing to do with being an illegal, his having the opportunity to commit this particular murder is entirely due to that status.

 

Wait, what? So you're saying that all illegals come into this country knowing that they can murder people? That makes no sense whatsoever.  So what's your rationale for citizens murdering people?

 

On a hypothetical, what if this person was in this country on a work visa and committed the same crime.  Would this be still a discussion?

[DConnell Member]

16 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

I'm not denying what he is at all, I'm just saying that him being illegally in the US doesn't have a damned thing to him being a murderer.  It's just as likely a natural born citizen of the US could have done it, and indeed, many of them do.

 

Again. His status as a murderer doesn't have a thing to do with his status as an illegal immigrant.  One does not equal the other. A does not equal B.

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, DConnell said:

  his being a murderer has nothing to do with being an illegal,

Did you miss this? I'm not arguing that being a murderer is linked to being an illegal immigrant, and never have. I'm arguing that his having the opportunity to commit this particular murder is directly a result of being an illegal immigrant.

 

Not the same thing.

[FloatingFatMan]

Just now, DConnell said:

 

Did you miss this? I'm not arguing that being a murderer is linked to being an illegal immigrant, and never have. I'm arguing that his having the opportunity to commit this particular murder is directly a result of being an illegal immigrant.

 

Not the same thing.

Literally anyone in the same area had exactly the same opportunity.  Sure if he hadn't entered the US then he wouldn't have had the opportunity to kill this woman, but so what? He might then have just murdered someone else instead.

[DConnell Member]

5 minutes ago, primortal said:

Wait, what? So you're saying that all illegals come into this country knowing that they can murder people? That makes no sense whatsoever.  So what's your rationale for citizens murdering people?

 

On a hypothetical, what if this person was in this country on a work visa and committed the same crime.  Would this be still a discussion?

Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying he was able to commit this murder because he was here, and here illegally. No more. No less. Your extrapolation of what I said, I agree, makes no sense whatsoever.

 

There's always going to be some (potential) bad eggs that get through any screening process. Does that mean there shouldn't be one? If he'd been here on a work visa, the discussion would be the need for a better vetting process.

[DConnell Member]

6 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Literally anyone in the same area had exactly the same opportunity.  Sure if he hadn't entered the US then he wouldn't have had the opportunity to kill this woman, but so what? He might then have just murdered someone else instead.

And yet only he chose to do so ... How is that relevant?

 

And yes, he might have killed someone back in Mexico. But is that really a reason to not stop risky people from entering the US? Once again, is the US supposed to take on other nations' problems? Put our citizens at risk by allowing unvetted immigrants access? It's somehow better that Mollie died rather than this hypothetical Mexican victim? Why are we supposed to make our own people less safe by allowing unevaluated illegals to come in? Yeah, only a small percentage will be like this guy, but why should we be expected to take the risk at all?

 

Why do you act like we're supposed to care more about illegal immigrants than our own people?

[+primortal Subscriber²]

12 minutes ago, DConnell said:

I'm saying he was able to commit this murder because he was here, and here illegally.

That's the wrong assumption, "was able to commit murder".  You're still saying that a person being here illegally gives one the ability to do things one wouldn't do if here legally.  Him being here illegally didn't able him whatsoever to commit murder.  He as a human being chose to murder another human being, citizenship status aside.

 

Yes, if look at the causality of this your correct.  But I'm in agreement with the family that using this situation to further this government's agenda is wrong.

[FloatingFatMan]

13 minutes ago, DConnell said:

And yet only he chose to do so ... How is that relevant?

 

And yes, he might have killed someone back in Mexico. But is that really a reason to not stop risky people from entering the US? Once again, is the US supposed to take on other nations' problems? Put our citizens at risk by allowing unvetted immigrants access? It's somehow better that Mollie died rather than this hypothetical Mexican victim? Why are we supposed to make our own people less safe by allowing unevaluated illegals to come in? Yeah, only a small percentage will be like this guy, but why should we be expected to take the risk at all?

 

Why do you act like we're supposed to care more about illegal immigrants than our own people?

And as has been said, this guy has ZERO prior record. He would have been let into the US anyway had he gone though channels, and then still murdered this woman or someone else. How would you explain it THEN? 

 

[strotee]

What a waste of a life.

 

One could make the argument that if immigration was enforced as strongly as other crimes in this country, then this would not likely have happened. Go after the employer of this person and make them accountable.

[DConnell Member]

48 minutes ago, primortal said:

That's the wrong assumption, "was able to commit murder".  You're still saying that a person being here illegally gives one the ability to do things one wouldn't do if here legally.  Him being here illegally didn't able him whatsoever to commit murder.  He as a human being chose to murder another human being, citizenship status aside.

 

Yes, if look at the causality of this your correct.  But I'm in agreement with the family that using this situation to further this government's agenda is wrong.

You're still reading incorrect things into what I'm saying. Yes, it wasn't his status as an illegal that enabled him to commit murder. But his presence in this country gave him proximity to Mollie, allowing him to murder her. And that presence was obtained illegally. Perhaps if he'd attempted legal entry and been denied, Mollie might still be alive. Or if he'd not come here illegally, she might still be alive. And yes, if he'd gained entry legally, he still might have murdered her - the vetting process is not foolproof, and (addressing @FloatingFatMan's argument) if there was no evidence that he had the potential for this he might still have gotten in and the result might have been the same. But the fact that the system is not infallible does not mean that the US should not do what it can to regulate immigration.

 

If he hadn't been in this country, he would not have been able to kill Mollie. And had he attempted legal entry, he might (not definitely would have but MIGHT) have been rejected and Mollie would not have been murdered. And then I'd be arguing, not that all Mexicans should be barred but that the vetting process needs improvement. Actually, I say that now ...

 

At this point, I'm not even sure what you guys are arguing here. Your arguments don't really seem to be relevant to what I say, but rather some extrapolation of what I say that is quite different from my actual statement.

 

At no point have I said that all Mexicans are murderous rapists, nor have I said that all illegal immigrants are. I do think that the US needs to have better control over who comes in, and should be allowed to allow/deny entry on whatever criteria is considered fair. And I do say that had this guy not been in the US (and he WAS here illegally) he would not have had the opportunity to kill Mollie. True, had he been granted legal entry he still could have killed her, but that's just speculation. Had he attempted legal entry, he might have been denied and this murder prevented. (And I freely admit that this is speculation.)

 

Sorry, "not all illegal immigrants are like that" is completely true, but is not a valid argument against the US having a strong system for regulating immigration.

[DocM]

1 hour ago, DConnell said:

And what we're just saying, because of their illegal status, because they skipped the line and the evaluation, we have no way of knowing that! (I freely admit the process will not guarantee an immigrant is "safe" but it's better than just letting everyone in unchecked.)

 

And there are ~4,000,000 people in the line waiting to get in the right way.  Line jumping, and accepting it, is a slap in their faces.

[+primortal Subscriber²]

2 minutes ago, DConnell said:

At this point, I'm not even sure what you guys are arguing here. Your arguments don't really seem to be relevant to what I say, but rather some extrapolation of what I say that is quite different from my actual statement.

If you read the last sentence of my last post I did agree on the causality of this

[DConnell Member]

7 minutes ago, primortal said:

If you read the last sentence of my last post I did agree on the causality of this

Well, you disagreed and then agreed, so I wasn't sure.

[+primortal Subscriber²]

18 minutes ago, ozzy76 said:

Go after the employer of this person and make them accountable.

It would be more of going after the government at this point.  As per, https://www.today.com/news/mollie-tibbetts-family-our-hearts-are-broken-t136203

Quote

The father and son who run the family-owned dairy farm where Rivera worked said they used E-Verify, a government verification system, to assess Rivera's immigration status and that everything had checked out.

 

 

[DConnell Member]

16 minutes ago, primortal said:

It would be more of going after the government at this point.  As per, https://www.today.com/news/mollie-tibbetts-family-our-hearts-are-broken-t136203

 

In that case it looks like the vetting process needs looking at, to hopefully decrease the chances of another failure of the system. (Doesn't really change my stance that the US needs to improve its systems for regulating immigration, though. Just means a different area of it failed.)

 

Hopefully his actions won't have a negative impact on legal immigrants.

[+primortal Subscriber²]

Just now, DConnell said:

Well, you disagreed and then agreed, so I wasn't sure.

I only disagreed with the rationale that him being an illegal gave him the ability to commit murder.

 

I agree with the fact of him being in this county caused Mollie's murder.

 

We're basically arguing semantics.

[DocM]

18 minutes ago, primortal said:

It would be more of going after the government at this point.  As per, https://www.today.com/news/mollie-tibbetts-family-our-hearts-are-broken-t136203

 

 

Nope. Not E-Verify, and he used a fradulent ID. 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/farm-worker-charged-in-mollie-tibbetts-death-didnt-go-through-e-verify/

Quote

>

However, the farm's owners said in a press conference later on Wednesday that the company had determined their ex-employee had used a false name to pass verification. They also explained that while they thought they were using E-Verify, they were actually using a different older system through the Social Security Administration.

 

"Just within the last four hours we have come to learn that the Social Security Administration employment verification service is not the same as E-Verify," said Dane Lang, co-owner and manager of the farm. "We're signing up for e-verification, and we intend to fully vet everyone through the E-Verify system."

>

Rivera didn't request or receive any DACA status, which could have permitted him to legally work in the U.S., Citizenship and Immigration Services said in a statement. "We have found no record in our systems indicating he has any lawful immigration status," CIS said.

>

 

[+primortal Subscriber²]

8 minutes ago, DocM said:

 

Nope, not E-Verify. And, he like many other illegals, committed fraud by using someone else's ID

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/farm-worker-charged-in-mollie-tibbetts-death-didnt-go-through-e-verify/

 

Ever evolving story.

 

Unfortunately, nothing currently is ever going to prevent anyone legal or illegal from committing fraud by using someone else's ID.

[domboy]

1 hour ago, DocM said:

 

And there are ~4,000,000 people in the line waiting to get in the right way.  Line jumping, and accepting it, is a slap in their faces.

Indeed. Most people get ticked off when someone jumps line at theme parks, ticket lines, grocery stores etc, but I find it odd how many people seem to be ok with line jumping when it comes to immigration. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by domboy

[techbeck]

Need better ways to determine that the people are who they say to be.  This is an issue since lots use stolen IDs or fake names.  And every immigrant needs to be documented as well.  Then you need to have those in this country stop protecting them at every turn and giving them more rights and considerations than US citizens.  I have no problem with immigrants, it is the illegal once that are an issue for me.   To many issues with the current system regardless of those who think there are not.

 

If you are hard working and a good person who contributes to this country, then more the merrier.    I lived in AZ for 15 years and know many people who came here the right way and got their citizenship.  Yea, it can be a pain but was more than worth it to them.  I also know some illegals who are good people but have not taken the time to become legal.  While I like these people, they are really screwing themselves if they do not take steps to become legal.

 

And I think that is were most people have a problem.  It is not immigrants, it is ILLEGAL immigrants.   But media and certain others like to go crazy and assume people are against all immigration illegal or not.

[wakjak]

2 hours ago, DocM said:

 

Nope. Not E-Verify, and he used a fradulent ID. 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/farm-worker-charged-in-mollie-tibbetts-death-didnt-go-through-e-verify/

 

So then what you're saying is that they need to fix how social security works, and make it so that this can't happen. 

 

 

[DConnell Member]

3 hours ago, primortal said:

I only disagreed with the rationale that him being an illegal gave him the ability to commit murder.

 

I agree with the fact of him being in this county caused Mollie's murder.

 

We're basically arguing semantics.

I'm still not sure where you're getting the notion that I think his being an illegal gave him the ability to commit murder ... All it did was grant him access to this victim - he could have killed back home as well.