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A man who traveled from Norway to Florida to surprise his father-in-law was accidentally shot dead

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adrynalyne    12,641
21 minutes ago, DramaInc said:

In civilized countries you dont expect to be shot for trying to do something nice for people.  

Not exactly a nice thing to do...regardless of outcome. 

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adrynalyne    12,641
1 hour ago, warwagon said:

We really don't know how far away the guy was from him. If he was just a few feet, and if this personal actual meant him harm with a knife or a gun, by the time I determined if he knew the guy or not he would have probably been dead. 

 

Moral of the story, don't ump out of the dark and scare someone who has never met you in the back yard of their house.  You'll live longer.

So if I come around the corner, and yell boo! and startle you, you are within your rights to shoot and kill me based on how close I am?

 

What kind of  logic is that? Or does the logic only apply to bushes?

Edited by adrynalyne
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DocM    16,656
3 hours ago, Buttus said:

so do you wait until they attack you before you shoot?

 

the big question to me is, how far away was he when he jumped out of the bushes?  2 or 3 feet or 15 feet?   if it was 2 or 3 feet, i'm not giving them the chance to attack first.

 

The question comes down to how close is too close?

 

In pistol training there's an exercise called the Tueller Drill. Developed by a tactical officer it's been tested on Mythbusters and found valid.

 

The drill measures at what distance a given trainee can make a shoot/no-shoot decision and fire at a knife or melee (physical) attacker approaching from the front and mostly evade injury. 

 

The rule of thumb is 21 feet/6.4 meters. In testing the Tueller Drill Mythbusters came up with 20 feet/6.1 meters. Pick one.

 

The average closing time from 21 feet/6.4 meters is only 1.5 seconds. 

 

And this is in daylight.

 

In the dark it's double-tough. If the approach comes from the sides or behind, it's even worse.

 

The bottom line is this homeowner  had almost zero time to determine this out of the blue charging persons intent and played it safe. 

 

The fool who stormed someone at night, in the US - where in some places 10% of adults carry a firearm, made a huge mistake. Worthy of a Darwin Award.

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adrynalyne    12,641
6 minutes ago, DocM said:

 

The question comes down to how close is too close?

 

In pistol training there's an exercise called the Tueller Drill. Developed by a tactical officer it's been tested on Mythbusters and found valid.

 

The drill measures at what distance a given trainee can make a shoot/no-shoot decision and fire at a knife or melee (physical) attacker approaching from the front and mostly evade injury. 

 

The rule of thumb is 21 feet/6.4 meters. In testing the Tueller Drill Mythbusters came up with 20 feet/6.1 meters. Pick one.

 

The average closing time from 21 feet/6.4 meters is only 1.5 seconds. 

 

And this is in daylight.

 

In the dark it's double-tough. If the approach comes from the sides or behind, it's even worse.

 

The bottom line is this homeowner  had almost zero time to determine this out of the blue charging persons intent and played it safe. 

 

The fool who stormed someone at night, in the US - where in some places 10% of adults carry a firearm, made a huge mistake. Worthy of a Darwin Award.

The fool is the person who put themself in the position of not being situationally aware and killed a family member because of it. 

Edited by adrynalyne
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DocM    16,656
Just now, adrynalyne said:

The fool is the person who put themself in the position of not being situationally aware and killed a family member because of it. 

 

You exit your back door and are immediately set upon by someone charging in from the darkness, weapons status unknown. What do you do?

 

The family status is socially relevant, but not legally so. Unless, of course, the deceased had the homeowner in his will. 

 

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adrynalyne    12,641
7 minutes ago, DocM said:

 

You exit your back door and are immediately set upon by someone charging in from the darkness, weapons status unknown. What do you do?

 

The family status is socially relevant, but not legally so. Unless, of course, the deceased had the homeowner in his will. 

 

Well for starters, I’m not a damn idiot who is going to step out into the darkness without a powerful flashlight on me. Guess what a powerful flashlight does? Blind and dazzle your proposed attacker and I can see while they cannot. Not everything has to be solved with a gun. 
 

Situational.awareness. Was it so dark he couldn’t see a form? I was just told earlier in this thread that height and build make a difference vs it being a four year old. 
 


 

Be qualified with a firearm or keep your (not you specifically) hands off em. Qualified doesn’t just mean you can hit your target or pull the trigger. 

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+Human.Online    8,692

OK so...

 

Pounding on the door, running away, coming back later and doing the same, then jumping out of a bush at someone.

 

Is that not meant to act as if to startle, scare and/or surprise someone?  Is it not emulating something more sinister and potentially harmful?

 

That's the situation put in front of the homeowner.

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techbeck    6,968
5 minutes ago, DocM said:

 

You exit your back door and are immediately set upon by someone charging in from the darkness, weapons status unknown. What do you do?

 

The family status is socially relevant, but not legally so. Unless, of course, the deceased had the homeowner in his will. 

 

Pretty much. FIL did not know who he was. People here are giving the impression he knew who he was in that split second.   To the fil, it was an intruder and he scared someone of his property a few hours earlier.  So essentially, he gave the guy a chance a few hours earlier to id himself. 

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adrynalyne    12,641
1 minute ago, Human.Online said:

OK so...

 

Pounding on the door, running away, coming back later and doing the same, then jumping out of a bush at someone.

 

Is that not meant to act as if to startle, scare and/or surprise someone?  Is it not emulating something more sinister and potentially harmful?

 

That's the situation put in front of the homeowner.

Sure. It’s not nice. It startled him. Does someone deserve to die for it?

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+Human.Online    8,692
3 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Sure. It’s not nice. It startled him. Does someone deserve to die for it?

I don't care whether it's nice or not.  I'm arguing that the guy presented a situation where it came acress as there was a sustained threat.  They created that entire situation and the way it looked and felt.

 

Does someone carrying a replica firearm deserve to be dealt with the same way as someone carrying a real one?

Same argument - the situation is presented and dealt with as real.

 

If I wake up in the night and find someone trying to break into my house, I take my baseball bat to them.  They aren't given a chance to turn around and shout "Ha just kidding".

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adrynalyne    12,641
6 minutes ago, Human.Online said:

I don't care whether it's nice or not.  I'm arguing that the guy presented a situation where it came acress as there was a sustained threat.  They created that entire situation and the way it looked and felt.

 

Does someone carrying a replica firearm deserve to be dealt with the same way as someone carrying a real one?

Same argument - the situation is presented and dealt with as real.

That’s a little different. Unless someone can spot a replica firearm, there is no way to know if it’s real or not. That’s really not the same. One situation looks like a deadly weapon. One situation is being startled. 
 

Let me pose the question I did earlier. Would you see it justified if the person behind the bush was a four year old? Or should situational awareness been a thing? It could have just as easily been a child. 

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techbeck    6,968
15 minutes ago, Human.Online said:

OK so...

 

Pounding on the door, running away, coming back later and doing the same, then jumping out of a bush at someone.

 

Is that not meant to act as if to startle, scare and/or surprise someone?  Is it not emulating something more sinister and potentially harmful?

 

That's the situation put in front of the homeowner.

Must be common to go around and pound on people's doors at night in Norway.

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+Human.Online    8,692
6 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

One situation looks like a deadly weapon. One situation is being startled. 

One situation looks like a deadly weapon.  One situation looks like an assault.  If you're gonna deny that this could have come across as such, then you're kidding yourself.

 

6 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Let me pose the question I did earlier. Would you see it justified if the person behind the bush was a four year old? Or should situational awareness been a thing? It could have just as easily been a child. 

What an odd question.  It wasn't a 4 year old kid.  a 4 year old kid would present a wholly different situation.

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techbeck    6,968
Just now, Human.Online said:

What an odd question.  It wasn't a 4 year old kid.  a 4 year old kid would present a wholly different situation.

Pretty much what I hinted at earlier when it was asked.  You can put what ifs in to this situation to try and make a point.  But that is not the facts of this case. 

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adrynalyne    12,641
3 minutes ago, Human.Online said:

One situation looks like a deadly weapon.  One situation looks like an assault.  If you're gonna deny that this could have come across as such, then you're kidding yourself.

 

What an odd question.  It wasn't a 4 year old kid.  a 4 year old kid would present a wholly different situation.

Simple assault is not grounds for firing a gun. 


How does it present a different situation? Take all elements of this story and replace it with a child. How is it no longer justified in your eyes? The situation hasn’t changed. He couldn’t id the person or intent so he killed them. How does age play into it those two factors?

4 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Must be common to go around and pound on people's doors at night in Norway.

People play ding dong ditch all the time where I live. They are still breathing too. 😉

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techbeck    6,968
1 minute ago, adrynalyne said:

People play ding dong ditch all the time where I live. They are still breathing too. 😉

Must be a lot of 4yr olds playing ding dong ditch at 1130pm at night then

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adrynalyne    12,641
Just now, techbeck said:

Must be a lot of 4yr olds playing ding dong ditch at 1130pm at night then

Man did you miss the point. 

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DocM    16,656
18 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Sure. It’s not nice. It startled him. Does someone deserve to die for it?

 

In too many locales such an attack is a prelude to a dirt nap for the victim. It certainly is around Detroit and most other big cities, and Florida isn't any different.

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+Human.Online    8,692
21 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Simple assault is not grounds for firing a gun. 

Ah but it wasn't simple assault in the way the situation was presented.  It was the second part of an ongoing issue.  Start of a home invasion?  That's how it would have felt to me.

 

21 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

How does it present a different situation? Take all elements of this story and replace it with a child.

That is a ridiculous thing to say.  Replace an adult with a child and it's NOT a different situation to you?  Physically different, visually different, absolutely a different threat level.  Come on, don't make up bizarre situations and try to present them as an argument.

 

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techbeck    6,968
Just now, adrynalyne said:

Man did you miss the point. 

You are putting hypotheticals into a factual situation to prove/make a point.    IF you cannot make a point with the facts of the case, then really not much of a point and the point means little to the case at hand.   It was not a 4yr old.  It was a grown man who was scared off a few hours earlier thus giving him a chance to come back properly and state who he was.  Instead, he pounded on the back door in the middle of the night and tried to scare the guy again.   I do not know one person who would not be on edge when a stranger pounds on their door at 1130pm at night.

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DocM    16,656
2 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Man did you miss the point. 

 

No, you're missing the point - that being that people jumping other people in the dark is usually a prelude to very bad things. The very reason we have self-defense laws.

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techbeck    6,968
14 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Man did you miss the point. 

Also, to entertain your hypothetical, if a 4yr old is out at 1130pm knocking on doors of strangers for the fun of it and gets killed, then their parents should be shot for not properly taking care of their kid.  Also, if the 4yr old is playing ding dong dash, they would not be around to get shot.  Unless they forget the dash part.

Edited by techbeck
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adrynalyne    12,641
27 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Also, to entertain your hypothetical, if a 4yr old is out at 1130pm knocking on doors of strangers for the fun of it and gets killed, then their parents should be shot for not properly taking care of their kid.  Also, if the 4yr old is playing ding dong dash, they would not be around to get shot.  Unless they forget the dash part.

The point I am making is you don’t know your target is legit, you shouldn’t be pulling the trigger. Funny how age changes how people react to a situation where apparently the shooter didn’t have time to assess the situation yet was justified. Why would age matter if that is actually the case?

31 minutes ago, DocM said:

 

No, you're missing the point - that being that people jumping other people in the dark is usually a prelude to very bad things. The very reason we have self-defense laws.

He didn’t get jumped buddy. He was startled. We are screwed as a human race if we think it’s ok to kill each other when startled. 

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techbeck    6,968

Because the average height of a 4 year old is under 4 feet tall.   Easy to tell between adult and a kid at that height. Even in a Split Second. And no four-year-old will be running around 11:30 p.m. at night banging on people's doors. It is a silly hypothetical.

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techbeck    6,968

What if this happened in the ghetto normally associated with high crime?  Would it be different if it happened in a rich neighborhood?  What if it happened in the country vs in the city? 

 

What ifs mean nothing to the facts here and have no weight on what actually happened.  As soon as you put in what ifs, it changes the narratives and goes the way of fiction.

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