main page poll Have you upgraded to Windows 11 yet?

[nerim]

On 06/03/2023 at 15:25, PluralGrey said:

If others don't share these dislikes, that's fine. 

I share many of your dislikes, but I'm old (almost 70) and am tired of chasing operating systems and software in order to get things done. Therefore, because I know it pretty well, I settle for Windows 10/11. 

As recently as last weekend, just to see what it's like now, I installed Linux Mint on a spare PC, and was very impressed (compared to the last time I used Mint almost exclusively, which was version 8). I still try Mint every now and then, but most of my work is on Windows 10/11, so here I stay. But if "Windows 12" gets any weirder than 11 already is, I'll drop it.

[ad47uk]

On 26/01/2023 at 11:44, chaos mage said:

My point wasn't that those specific features would be useful to you or even that they are the only ones, but that they'll start to add up to why win10 is going to lose traction.  Especially among new machines of course, that was always a given, but anyone who prefers a better OS under the hood.

(Nearly everyone uses productivity software on that note.  I was just saying it likely wouldn't run notably faster.)

Makes little difference to me now, I now have a Mac mini m2 pro and while it is taking a little bit to get used to it, I am enjoying using it. If that will last is a different thing as I used to enjoy using Windows.

I still have the old PC beside the desk here and it will stay set up, may move it out of the way if I can get the cables to reach it, but it is certainly not going to be used as much, so it will stay on Windows 10

 

[ad47uk]

On 07/03/2023 at 00:30, nerim said:

I share many of your dislikes, but I'm old (almost 70) and am tired of chasing operating systems and software in order to get things done. Therefore, because I know it pretty well, I settle for Windows 10/11. 

As recently as last weekend, just to see what it's like now, I installed Linux Mint on a spare PC, and was very impressed (compared to the last time I used Mint almost exclusively, which was version 8). I still try Mint every now and then, but most of my work is on Windows 10/11, so here I stay. But if "Windows 12" gets any weirder than 11 already is, I'll drop it.

I am getting older, 58 this year and I feel the samer way as you, after 20 odd years of mucking around with Windows, I thought it was time for a change. I did look at Linux a few times and while I do like linux, it doesn't have the software I use. So I have gone for a Mac mini m2 pro instead. Really nice machine, expensive, but nice.

[Arceles]

On 07/03/2023 at 05:51, ad47uk said:

I am getting older, 58 this year and I feel the samer way as you, after 20 odd years of mucking around with Windows, I thought it was time for a change. I did look at Linux a few times and while I do like linux, it doesn't have the software I use. So I have gone for a Mac mini m2 pro instead. Really nice machine, expensive, but nice.

I think *ALL* of us are getting older. The problem in itself isnt't windows... is the disbelief caused by trying to be optimistic and thinking "Surely next version will be better" and after windows 7 this has failed so many times that is not funny. I actually enjoyed vista, it was refreshing (I had 4 gb of RAM back then) 7 was just the same, you had that newly installed OS emotion in which if something did not (rarely) worked then you thinkered a bit and that is that. Nowadaws? thinkering is related about how to disable stuff from windows, specially all the windows defender stuff (and for my home use TPM)

Enough is enough and so I moved to Debian and whereas I thinker it a bit, at least is in order to improve my experience and not to recover what I had from the past. That says a lot in itself.

[C:Amie]

On 07/03/2023 at 14:43, Arceles said:

I think *ALL* of us are getting older. The problem in itself isnt't windows... is the disbelief caused by trying to be optimistic and thinking "Surely next version will be better" and after windows 7 this has failed so many times that is not funny. I actually enjoyed vista, it was refreshing (I had 4 gb of RAM back then) 7 was just the same, you had that newly installed OS emotion in which if something did not (rarely) worked then you thinkered a bit and that is that. Nowadaws? thinkering is related about how to disable stuff from windows, specially all the windows defender stuff (and for my home use TPM)

Enough is enough and so I moved to Debian and whereas I thinker it a bit, at least is in order to improve my experience and not to recover what I had from the past. That says a lot in itself.

I broadly agree. I know that we are on a site called neo win(dows), and back in the day when this site started and I first joined, I felt excited about progress and changes for the future. These days I have completely lost interest and see "innovation" through an increasingly narrowing lens of corporate entrapment strategies.

Sure, I didn't like the Teletubbies look of XP, but do you know what, you could turn it off and I was happy as Larry. All of the extra clicks and long-windedness added to XP to make it easier for novice users I could bypass. That was a fair compromise. I had to turn off the dog avatar in search and the web side bars and the dumbed down control panel view. But I could!

Now Microsoft view the golden goose as being a mechanism to force you to use cloud services, have accounts, telemetry, telemetry, telemetry with the inevitable end-game here being subscriptions. Vendors trying to lock you into their ecosystem, their way of doing things and their increasingly Apple inspired over simplified way of doing things so that you can consume what the OS manufacturer wants, how they want you to and in a way that ensures that they are getting a cut. Microsoft has become so capricious in its UI design and in its lack of joined up thinking here that it is past being amusing to watch. We are here to be core bundled into an environment. The cloud and the half-measure limitations that it is imposing has zapped most of the challenge out of client side corporate IT. Most of the data centre side is moving to the cloud and everything is becoming cookie cutter 30 piece jigsaw puzzles, more telemetry and higher subscription fees for what used to be incredibly simple, bundled functionality. IT is becoming less and less flexible and innovation is gradually being shuttered behind IP barriers held across a few well known names.

We disagree clearly on TPM. Microsoft had to do it, the issue for me was the way that Microsoft did it. Microsoft has done this plenty of times before, pushing OEM's forward through changing their licensing requirements. Think Aero in Vista (WDDM) which caught so many off guard. Examples that people are less likely to be annoyed about: WDM audio drivers, PC97, the inclusion of USB ports, SVGA and more. All of these became mandatory for OEM's, they just didn't faux-cripple the next version of Windows if you upgraded and didn't have them - or at the very least (as in the case of WDM audio) you could spend £40 and solve the problem.

The W11 TPM fiasco is Aero all over again, except instead of undermining an entire generation of new IT equipment, creating masses of e-waste and giving Windows a bad name. This time, it has upset people with older equipment who are perhaps rightfully upset that their equipment is not actually all that old and that demonstrably Microsoft did this will little 'actual' reason. Yet Android has been getting more secure by default for years, I don't think that it is wrong that Windows should either. What I object to a) effectively forcing (home) users into Microsoft account to use it b) the way Microsoft did it.

9/12 months notice of the TPM requirement (and the 8th gen CPU req.) was not sufficient, especially when there was no comprehensive reason to have pretended that it was a mandatory requirement - we all know that it runs perfectly fine without it. If Microsoft had said when Windows 10 1803 came out that there would be a time in the Windows planning life cycle where TPM would be needed. People would have made different purchasing choices and by the time Windows 11 came along, they wouldn't have faced the noise from users. They could have easily launched W11 with a mandatory TPM requirement for OEM's when they did but a suggested system requirement for consumers with a red flag asterisk that a TPM would become mandatory for Windows 12. Instead we got something akin to another PR own-goal out of Redmond.

 

Like you, I have taken active steps to move to Linux, but it is not a pleasant experience. How you can install Debian, Mint or Ubuntu on a laptop and wind up with no viable power management - no S1 support, no S3 support, a swap file in the wrong mode to support suspend to disk and none of the extensions in Gnome necessary to show or operate said power management. Well, it's farcical frankly. And don't get me started on MS Exchange compatibility... Sure, I spent a few hours sorting it out - mostly (I have never managed to get Exchange online calendar's to sync properly). Most people would see that their battery is draining while they sleep, find their laptop comes out of their back pack red hot or that they have no viable calendar and give up right there.

Linux and its fragmented. disjointed mess of ecosystems doesn't have the app developers releasing for it that it needs to captivate the user community - yet. I hope that it will do. It is still missing so much quality and basic functionality that it is all but impossible to recommend to most users.

[Arceles]

On 07/03/2023 at 10:02, C:Amie said:

Like you, I have taken active steps to move to Linux, but it is not a pleasant experience. How you can install Debian, Mint or Ubuntu on a laptop and wind up with no viable power management - no S1 support, no S3 support, a swap file in the wrong mode to support suspend to disk and none of the extensions in Gnome necessary to show or operate said power management. Well, it's farcical frankly. And don't get me started on MS Exchange compatibility... Sure, I spent a few hours sorting it out - mostly (I have never managed to get Exchange online calendar's to sync properly). Most people would see that their battery is draining while they sleep, find their laptop comes out of their back pack red hot or that they have no viable calendar and give up right there.

Linux and its fragmented. disjointed mess of ecosystems doesn't have the app developers releasing for it that it needs to captivate the user community - yet. I hope that it will do. It is still missing so much quality and basic functionality that it is all but impossible to recommend to most users.

I do not know how your experience is so weird with sleeping but in both surface pro 2/thinkpad T480/Asus Advantage edition laptops everything works fine. Granted i have been using Debian 12 testing... but still. For extensions I only use the ones for monotiring temps/frequencies/networkactivity/icon notifications and that is it.

Where I found it needs more polishing is in GPUs of the Radeon RX7000 series, I can observe some crashes whereas this does not happen in Radeon RX6000 series. But I assume this will be eventually fixed.

[DramaInc]

I have and regret it.  Some weird instability issues since the upgrade.  

[Fraud OS 11]

No, we can skip it like Vista, 8/8.1 and wait for the actual fixed next-generation crap. But then what exactly was the compelling reason to downgrade to Windows 10 from Windows 8.1 with a Start menu or Windows 7? Not much to me, some trivial things.

Edited March 7, 2023 by MS Bob 11

[dead.cell]

I upgraded a few months after launch, and here's my thoughts from the time I've been on it:

Pros:

• Settings being reworked I find a lot better than in Windows 10
• Centered taskbar icons I'm good with
• File Explorer tabs are great, as is Notepad with tabs (even if it doesn't come close to Notepad++)
• Elegant UI, even if there's still a backlog of work that needs to be done to be consistent
• Windows remembering your window layout when you add/remove a screen is nice (when it works)

Cons: 

• We lost a number of good features just to get here, and some of those choices are highly questionable
• Locked taskbar is an absolutely idiotic decision that impacts my own work flow (I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but when your tabs, tools, menus, window controls are all at the top, having your taskbar/systray there too just makes sense for less vertical navigation)
• Some of the new menus like the Start Menu are comparatively trash... can't even resize the start menu, why??
• Windows updates come with ads to subscribe to 365 and other services, even if you already have them, along with resetting Edge to default settings so they can push Bing on you

Ugly:

• They've spent so much time just trying to reimplement features Windows 10 already had
• New features they try to come out with are often met with disdain as many still await to be able to operate the way they did previously
• They are pushing hard for people to have Microsoft accounts and collect telemetry data, but seemingly don't know how to use it...

 

When I sit and look back at the things I like about Windows 11 now... man, if you're on Windows 10, I don't think there's a GOOD reason to upgrade. It's more or less the same but less functionality. I can't speak on performance, given I haven't seen any notable differences, but then again, I'm sure my PC has more than your average user. I would likely listen to people who actually did those metrics or are using a more average PC for a reference point there.

That said, I highly support StartAllBack or Start11 for anyone making the plunge. If I didn't, I'd probably be quite unhappy with it...

[C:Amie]

On 07/03/2023 at 16:32, Arceles said:

I do not know how your experience is so weird with sleeping but in both surface pro 2/thinkpad T480/Asus Advantage edition laptops everything works fine. Granted i have been using Debian 12 testing... but still. For extensions I only use the ones for monotiring temps/frequencies/networkactivity/icon notifications and that is it.

Where I found it needs more polishing is in GPUs of the Radeon RX7000 series, I can observe some crashes whereas this does not happen in Radeon RX6000 series. But I assume this will be eventually fixed.

Dell XPS 15 here. Not exactly niche. It needed the Gnome shell extension hibernate status, the swap file need modifying and expanding from the default install config to even support S2D plus a load of power config scripts/rules and I had to setup lid close rules, enable hybrid sleep support etc by hand. I have gnome tweaks, gnome extensions and sensor monitor as you do.

[CloudEngineer]

I usually just roll with the latest insider developer (now Canary) builds at home, at least for my own PC. I do work and game on it but I have other machines laying around, regular backups etc, if something unexpectedly goes wrong. So I'd put myself down as using windows 11 the whole time and now ready for the transition to Windows 12 or whatever is next.

viva la beta

[Steven P. Administrators]

Still not seeing a compelling reason to upgrade from Windows 10, other than some cosmetic niceties. The thing that bugs me the most about Windows 11 is the Start menu, taskbar and File Explorer context menus which I use every day in my workflow. Having to swap for a 3rd party file explorer just to fix the context menus is just a duct-tape measure because I think updates would break it. I'm also not keen on the extent of Bing being integrated into Start and Windows search pushing Microsoft services (also in Windows Update and throughout the Settings app).

I wish Microsoft would just make a Pro SKU that we can buy so that we can properly opt out of all that crap. What good are all these privacy efforts by the EU and some US states if Microsoft is creepily looking over our shoulder all the time and recording what we do in Windows for their telemetry? Why can't we opt out of that fully?

Does Apple do this to their customers with iOS and MacOS?

[Fraud OS 11]

On 09/03/2023 at 18:04, Steven P. said:

Still not seeing a compelling reason to upgrade from Windows 10, other than some cosmetic niceties. The thing that bugs me the most about Windows 11 is the Start menu, taskbar and File Explorer context menus which I use every day in my workflow. Having to swap for a 3rd party file explorer just to fix the context menus is just a duct-tape measure because I think updates would break it. I'm also not keen on the extent of Bing being integrated into Start and Windows search pushing Microsoft services (also in Windows Update and throughout the Settings app).

I wish Microsoft would just make a Pro SKU that we can buy so that we can properly opt out of all that crap. What good are all these privacy efforts by the EU and some US states if Microsoft is creepily looking over our shoulder all the time and recording what we do in Windows for their telemetry? Why can't we opt out of that fully?

Does Apple do this to their customers with iOS and MacOS?

Well I am glad more people are noticing that it's time for a Pro SKU because of UI being dumbed down too much and all the options being thrown away. But it started long back with Windows Vista and even the "Pro" or "Ultimate" SKUs of Windows Vista, 7, 8.1, 10 discarded plenty of important and long-standing BASIC customization options, and every release since has done this. The problem is since people didn't object to it in Windows 7 or Windows 10.

[Arceles]

On 09/03/2023 at 08:22, MS Bob 11 said:

Well I am glad more people are noticing that it's time for a Pro SKU because of UI being dumbed down too much and all the options being thrown away. But it started long back with Windows Vista and even the "Pro" or "Ultimate" SKUs of Windows Vista, 7, 8.1, 10 discarded plenty of important and long-standing BASIC customization options, and every release since has done this. The problem is since people didn't object to it in Windows 7 or Windows 10.

A real PRO version should be stripped of anything that is not essential to the OS... but that would be as if windows became linux. Wishfull thinking for another CEO that actually realises this.

[C:Amie]

On 09/03/2023 at 14:54, Arceles said:

A real PRO version should be stripped of anything that is not essential to the OS... but that would be as if windows became linux. Wishfull thinking for another CEO that actually realises this.

Trouble is that they have been stripping functionality from Pro and making it exclusive to the consumer inaccessible Enterprise - no subscription, no functionality. It's the future, today!

[Max1955]

I upgraded one of my computers to 11 right away. After a few months, I upgraded the other. I very much prefer Windows 11. My computers run faster, especially booting, and the entire new look is great. I find everything is easier to access in 11.

There are a few changes I don't like, but just a few and they are definitely nothing that will keep me in Windows 10. The main thing that bothered me was not being able to move the taskbar to the top. I find it makes more sense to have it there. Maybe it's just because I was a long time Mac user, but I find it easier to have it at the top.

I have no regrets about switching to 11.

[dead.cell]

On 09/03/2023 at 06:34, Steven P. said:

Does Apple do this to their customers with iOS and MacOS?

Sorry, do what to their customers? Wrap them up in telemetry or present a completely inconsistent UI? Because the answer is neither imo.

Don't get me wrong, there's many things Apple could (and should) do better on, but something I do appreciate is having a design philosophy that they work towards. It's not always perfect, and sometimes Windows has the better approach, but at least it's mostly consistent. I wouldn't call myself a power user on this platform though, as I am with Windows. I think this is why I'm so much more critical of Microsoft because I know the ins and outs of it to a heavy degree, and when you know systems like that, it begs the question of why they make the changes that they do... especially for anything and everything as small and minuscule as Task Manager being in the context menu of a taskbar right-click or seconds on the damn clock.

If it were me, my approach for their team would be, "This is not Microsoft Windows, this is YOUR Windows..." and design around that, where customization is at the forefront. I know some people would point to Linux as being the real option for such high level of customization, but if Windows is going to be the 90%+ of devices, then yeah, let us have our cake dammit!

[MajorSham]

On 07/03/2023 at 15:10, C:Amie said:

Dell XPS 15 here. Not exactly niche. It needed the Gnome shell extension hibernate status, the swap file need modifying and expanding from the default install config to even support S2D plus a load of power config scripts/rules and I had to setup lid close rules, enable hybrid sleep support etc by hand. I have gnome tweaks, gnome extensions and sensor monitor as you do.

Dell G5 SE 5505 here. I bought it specifically as it had an AMD CPU and a discrete AMD GPU, with the goal being to use it as a Linux gaming laptop. I eventually fled back to Windows after trying Ubuntu, Mint, Manjaro, even Fedora and Debian. Problems I had with the experience:

• AMD SmartShift didn't work, and I had to use bleeding edge kernels just to launch programs with the discrete GPU, or disable the iGPU in the BIOS.
• More kernel issues.. some distributions wouldn't even boot after install due to kernel incompatibilities.
• Distributions that did work would intermittently freeze. Occasionally while I was using the laptop, sometimes during or after a suspend/resume event.
• Connecting anything to HDMI didn't work unless a TV was connected before the laptop was powered on.
• The keyboard LEDs couldn't be controlled. Not entirely a Linux problem, but it's annoying seeing Alienware or other Dell LED controllers supported  in some of the FOSS LED controller apps, with not a shred of compatibility for a more mid-range pedestrian gaming laptop from the same OEM. One no-###### solution to this was to virtualize Windows and passthrough the LED controller to the Dell LED software on a VM.

It's been more than a year since I last gave Linux a shot on my laptop. Of course, it's common advice to not buy a brand new laptop that doesn't explicitly support Linux and expect to have a good time, but I had hoped I would have better luck with an all-AMD laptop.

It's entirely possible that newer kernels and distros have better support for this laptop these days. Maybe I'll give it a shot again sometime, but in the meantime.. Centos/Rocky has been great for virtualization and file sharing on my home server. 

[Arceles]

On 09/03/2023 at 18:00, MajorSham said:

Dell G5 SE 5505 here. I bought it specifically as it had an AMD CPU and a discrete AMD GPU, with the goal being to use it as a Linux gaming laptop. I eventually fled back to Windows after trying Ubuntu, Mint, Manjaro, even Fedora and Debian. Problems I had with the experience:

• AMD SmartShift didn't work, and I had to use bleeding edge kernels just to launch programs with the discrete GPU, or disable the iGPU in the BIOS.
• More kernel issues.. some distributions wouldn't even boot after install due to kernel incompatibilities.
• Distributions that did work would intermittently freeze. Occasionally while I was using the laptop, sometimes during or after a suspend/resume event.
• Connecting anything to HDMI didn't work unless a TV was connected before the laptop was powered on.
• The keyboard LEDs couldn't be controlled. Not entirely a Linux problem, but it's annoying seeing Alienware or other Dell LED controllers supported  in some of the FOSS LED controller apps, with not a shred of compatibility for a more mid-range pedestrian gaming laptop from the same OEM. One no-###### solution to this was to virtualize Windows and passthrough the LED controller to the Dell LED software on a VM.

It's been more than a year since I last gave Linux a shot on my laptop. Of course, it's common advice to not buy a brand new laptop that doesn't explicitly support Linux and expect to have a good time, but I had hoped I would have better luck with an all-AMD laptop.

It's entirely possible that newer kernels and distros have better support for this laptop these days. Maybe I'll give it a shot again sometime, but in the meantime.. Centos/Rocky has been great for virtualization and file sharing on my home server. 

What the hell man, I have an all amd laptop and everything works in Debian 12 testing, with everything I mean everything, I even managed to control the RGB lights in the keyboard. Debian 12 testing.

[Jaybonaut]

On 09/03/2023 at 16:27, Max1955 said:

I upgraded one of my computers to 11 right away. After a few months, I upgraded the other. I very much prefer Windows 11. My computers run faster, especially booting, and the entire new look is great. I find everything is easier to access in 11.

There are a few changes I don't like, but just a few and they are definitely nothing that will keep me in Windows 10. The main thing that bothered me was not being able to move the taskbar to the top. I find it makes more sense to have it there. Maybe it's just because I was a long time Mac user, but I find it easier to have it at the top.

I have no regrets about switching to 11.

You might be onto something there, since so many of us are not Mac fans - maybe that explains why so many dislike Win 11.

[C:Amie]

On 10/03/2023 at 02:00, MajorSham said:

Dell G5 SE 5505 here. I bought it specifically as it had an AMD CPU and a discrete AMD GPU, with the goal being to use it as a Linux gaming laptop. I eventually fled back to Windows after trying Ubuntu, Mint, Manjaro, even Fedora and Debian. Problems I had with the experience:

• AMD SmartShift didn't work, and I had to use bleeding edge kernels just to launch programs with the discrete GPU, or disable the iGPU in the BIOS.
• More kernel issues.. some distributions wouldn't even boot after install due to kernel incompatibilities.
• Distributions that did work would intermittently freeze. Occasionally while I was using the laptop, sometimes during or after a suspend/resume event.
• Connecting anything to HDMI didn't work unless a TV was connected before the laptop was powered on.
• The keyboard LEDs couldn't be controlled. Not entirely a Linux problem, but it's annoying seeing Alienware or other Dell LED controllers supported  in some of the FOSS LED controller apps, with not a shred of compatibility for a more mid-range pedestrian gaming laptop from the same OEM. One no-###### solution to this was to virtualize Windows and passthrough the LED controller to the Dell LED software on a VM.

It's been more than a year since I last gave Linux a shot on my laptop. Of course, it's common advice to not buy a brand new laptop that doesn't explicitly support Linux and expect to have a good time, but I had hoped I would have better luck with an all-AMD laptop.

It's entirely possible that newer kernels and distros have better support for this laptop these days. Maybe I'll give it a shot again sometime, but in the meantime.. Centos/Rocky has been great for virtualization and file sharing on my home server. 

My XPS 13 is Ubuntu certified, but apparently Dell have had to do some major work to their shipping image - which is now positively pre-historic. I have tried Ubuntu, Mint and Debian in the last 12 months. Ubuntu was the best of the three experience wise, but it needed a lot of geeking in order to get it there. Not having a working calendar in Evolution and not having access to OneNote are currently my biggest hurdles. In practice, I find myself "consuming" in Ubuntu and "doing" in Windows still.

[Malisk]

Yes, been on Windows 11 from day one. That was an easy decision for me. I love the aesthetics and disliked the square, uninspiring Windows 10 interface that felt like an emergency "desktopification" fix for their Windows 8 & RT market failures. I was never hit by the new hardware requirements as my Intel NUC was already ready for that stuff, and it has never bothered me politically.

Other than Windows 11, I've had some detours to Fedora which is "compatible" with me personally both as for the developer focus and the rate of updates striking a good middle ground between bleeding edge and stability. Microsoft's strong position in AI pulled me back to Windows 11 though as I expect quite a few interesting developments here for 2023 and 2024. They have a lot of clout here and I fully expect further integrated Bing AI in Windows 11 which -- despite all the horrible baggage that brand carries -- is quite amazing. In general, I think Nadella has really re-energized this platform.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Malisk

[Jaybonaut]

These poll results just keep getting funnier.  Let's see what Windows 12 is like and then see what 11 is like at that point.  I might jump from 10 depending.

[McCordRm]

I upgraded to 11... then went back to 10.

[NinjaGinger]

As Ive said before, downgrading to Windows 11 from Windows 10 is not an option.