Official WWDC 2004 discussion

[Cambria]

Might I kindly remind you that Apple recently had a series of banners implying that Microsoft will be ripping off Tiger when Longhorn comes out.  That's the whole point that is ****ing people off.  So, by your logic, Apple is sounding stupid, yes?

And I would like to remind you in case you didn't watch the keynote, that Steve said himself that they were just poking fun. (he even said that he had dinner with Bill Gates and that their companies had a very good relationship. So yes, Apple is sounding stupid, but that is the point because it's a joke.

Tell that to the Konfabulator developers.  DesktopX is for Windows.  Konfabulator is for OS X.  What Apple did is make Konfabulator for OS X, again.  Ever heard of M. Yamaguchi, the person who recieved a cease and desist order from Apple for making a Dock for *Windows*?  Where is that "imitation is the highest form of flattery" crap then?  Oh, wait, that's someone stealing an idea from Apple.  Burn them alive!

It's not the first time that things have been "ripped". Did you know that Apple copied the whole idea of having windows on the desktop from Xerox? Microsoft copied it off of Apple, and KDE, GNOME, and all the other linux window managers copied it from Apple and Windows. I say all that to say that true innovation is almost nonexistant nowdays. As far as the dock goes, Mr. Yamaguchi made Y'z Dock with the direct intention of copying Apple. He didn't say that it was "just an app for launching programs." It was intended to directly imitate Mac OS X's dock as closely as possible. Apple is not directly copying Konfabulator. Yes, Dashboard is amazingly similar, but I don't see Apple advertising a new feature called "Apple Konfabulator" Is Apple supposed to quit making improvements to their OS just so there isn't the slightest chance of "stealing an idea"?

Spin it however you want, Apples attitude in these areas is juvenile and cheap at best.  OS X is a nice OS, yes.  Apple hardware is pretty good as well.  But if Microsoft was doing half the crap Apple is pulling right now, there would be a riot over it.

I'm not trying to "spin" anything. I'm just saying that Apple can't be blamed for taking good ideas and running with them. It's called competition, and without it, we would all be using Mac OS 1.0, and DOS. Also, are you trying to say that Microsoft has never copied anything? That is bull*** and you know it. The computer industry thrives on compitition, which relies on imitation. Sure, innovation is nice, but if you can't offer what your competitors can, you're going out of business.

[gawdflesh]

I give up. I just don't understand why you find this behavior acceptable. How is this competition? By taking a really nice concept that was nearly exclusive to their platform and crushing it out of existence by their own "amazingly similar" version? Who cares how closely Y'z Dock imitates the OS X Dock? It's IN WINDOWS. It was a little program written by one guy...it wasn't like Microsoft came out with a Windows Dock. And Apple threatened to sue him! People aren't going to be buying a Mac because they think that Dock is really super-neato, and if they are, they are retarded.

So, just so I'm clear, it's ok for Apple to "innovate" as long as they are adding features, even if those exact same features are provided by third party applications, but then it's also ok for Apple to threaten lawsuits against small time individuals for making Aqua-looking programs and themes *for a completely different platform and architecture*? I know Microsoft does similar things, and that's NOT OK either. But what I'm getting here is years of flaming and lawsuits for behavior such as this from Microsoft, but its all peachy keen when Apple does it, and it's *applauded* by its followers! If Microsoft did this and it was in the news such as this, I'd be as quick to say the same thing. But this is WRONG, even if it is cute little Apple. I just don't get how people are defending this. You can like your Mac and OS X and still say that Apple does some messed up stuff sometimes, it's ok. They won't kick you out of the club. :rolleyes:

[Dashel]

Holy flaming christ in a a chicken basket. That new 30" display is gorgeous.

[Cambria]

I give up. I just don't understand why you find this behavior acceptable. How is this competition? By taking a really nice concept that was nearly exclusive to their platform and crushing it out of existence by their own "amazingly similar" version? Who cares how closely Y'z Dock imitates the OS X Dock? It's IN WINDOWS. It was a little program written by one guy...it wasn't like Microsoft came out with a Windows Dock. And Apple threatened to sue him! People aren't going to be buying a Mac because they think that Dock is really super-neato, and if they are, they are retarded.

So, just so I'm clear, it's ok for Apple to "innovate" as long as they are adding features, even if those exact same features are provided by third party applications, but then it's also ok for Apple to threaten lawsuits against small time individuals for making Aqua-looking programs and themes *for a completely different platform and architecture*? I know Microsoft does similar things, and that's NOT OK either. But what I'm getting here is years of flaming and lawsuits for behavior such as this from Microsoft, but its all peachy keen when Apple does it, and it's *applauded* by its followers! If Microsoft did this and it was in the news such as this, I'd be as quick to say the same thing. But this is WRONG, even if it is cute little Apple. I just don't get how people are defending this. You can like your Mac and OS X and still say that Apple does some messed up stuff sometimes, it's ok. They won't kick you out of the club. :rolleyes:

I don't think you are understanding exactly what i'm saying. First of all, I am definately not a "mac fanboy". I have actually been using a PC exclusively for the past six months. Yes I like Apple, but you've got me all wrong if you think I am just blindly defending my "cute little Apple"

The point is, it is impossible to make something original. Like I've already said, everything has been done before. I suppose Safari was "ripping" off of Camino and OmniWeb. I guess Apple's CoreImage is just "ripping" off of Photoshop's filters. iPhoto is just a "rip-off" of all other photo management applications.

Like I said, I guess Apple should just stop development of OS X so that they don't rip anyone else off.

[gawdflesh]

I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying is, that if everyone is copying everyone else, then accept that, and don't threaten to sue or toss around cease and desist orders like Apple is so damn quick to do. It's hypocritical.

[hoyablue]

I give up.  I just don't understand why you find this behavior acceptable.  How is this competition?  By taking a really nice concept that was nearly exclusive to their platform and crushing it out of existence by their own "amazingly similar" version?  Who cares how closely Y'z Dock imitates the OS X Dock?  It's IN WINDOWS.  It was a little program written by one guy...it wasn't like Microsoft came out with a Windows Dock.  And Apple threatened to sue him!  People aren't going to be buying a Mac because they think that Dock is really super-neato, and if they are, they are retarded. 

So, just so I'm clear, it's ok for Apple to "innovate" as long as they are adding features, even if those exact same features are provided by third party applications, but then it's also ok for Apple to threaten lawsuits against small time individuals for making Aqua-looking programs and themes *for a completely different platform and architecture*?  I know Microsoft does similar things, and that's NOT OK either.  But what I'm getting here is years of flaming and lawsuits for behavior such as this from Microsoft, but its all peachy keen when Apple does it, and it's *applauded* by its followers!  If Microsoft did this and it was in the news such as this, I'd be as quick to say the same thing.  But this is WRONG, even if it is cute little Apple.  I just don't get how people are defending this.  You can like your Mac and OS X and still say that Apple does some messed up stuff sometimes, it's ok.  They won't kick you out of the club.  :rolleyes:

I find your reasoning to be ludicrous. By your logic, any third party developer that makes an improvement automatically bans the software developers themselves to integrate those improvement into their operating system? If I recall correctly, certain third party developers constructed unofficial patches for the vulnerablities discovered in OSX recently. Afterwards, Apple released their own patch to handle this error in the operating system. Through your reasoning: the action of Apple releasing a patch that emulated the same properties as those of the unofficial patch in an effort to improve their operating system would be wrong.

I don't think that previous ideas, unless patented, are not allowed to be integrated into the operating system itself, especially since the goal was for improvement in the user experience.

[Cambria]

I find your reasoning to be ludicrous. By your logic, any third party developer that makes an improvement automatically bans the software developers themselves to integrate those improvement into their operating system? If I recall correctly, certain third party developers constructed unofficial patches for the vulnerablities discovered in OSX recently. Afterwards, Apple released their own patch to handle this error in the operating system. Through your reasoning: the action of Apple releasing a patch that emulated the same properties as those of the unofficial patch in an effort to improve their operating system would be wrong.

I don't think that previous ideas, unless patented, are not allowed to be integrated into the operating system itself, especially since the goal was for improvement in the user experience.

Thank you. That is pretty much what I am trying to say. I'm just not quite sure how to say it :)

[gawdflesh]

You know, never mind. I said I gave up, and I will leave it at that. Apple did the right thing, the Konfabulator guys have nothing to complain about, and Y'z Dock deserved to be shut down along with all those websites.

And some call Wintel people sheep.

[malebolgia Veteran]

I wonder when the Apple Store (not really a true Apple Store) on campus will get one of the new displays.

[aaron901]

i hope Tiger and PowerBook G5 come out at the same time. :)

[Cambria]

I wonder when the Apple Store (not really a true Apple Store) on campus will get one of the new displays.

I think they are supposed to be shipping mid-july or mid-august. I cant wait to go to the computer store and use one. If only I had $3200.......

[misecia]

Loads of pretty good screenshots over at:

http://www.macshrine.com/

[radioboy]

am i the only one who doesnt see this as two things that are majorly similar?

i use konfabulator for two things: having the weather and an easily accessible calendar display on my desktop.

im used to windows where you just double click the time for a calendar, and opening date and time properties via a menu was too much of a pita, so i just put the calendar right on the desktop. the weather is an extra bonus.

dasboard, on the other hand, seems to be more suited for things you need to INTERACT with. things like calculators (i dont use calc enough to put it on my dock, but it's a pain to go through the apps menu to get to it when i do), sticky notes, package tracking, etc. things you want to be able to work with (albeit for a brief period) rather than just statically look at, like the weather.

theres easily room for both in the world. especially since konfabulator is always displayed, while dashboard requires a hotkey. i see myself when tiger comes out using stickies/calculator/etc in dashboard, but still keeping my little weather on my desktop

as for calling them widgets... just stfu. widgets is such a generic term (arent most sets of controls (buittons, scrollbars, etc) in KDE called widgets too?) that it's ridiculous to whine about. did you all complain about people ripping MS off by having "windows" in their OSes?

[session]

Apples attitude in these areas is juvenile and cheap at best. OS X is a nice OS, yes. Apple hardware is pretty good as well. But if Microsoft was doing half the crap Apple is pulling right now, there would be a riot over it.

Microsoft, "bring it!"

[malebolgia Veteran]

I think they are supposed to be shipping mid-july or mid-august. I cant wait to go to the computer store and use one. If only I had $3200.......

Educational discount baby! It's only a few hundred dollars, but it?s still a discount.

[session]

Educational discount baby! It's only a few hundred dollars, but it?s still a discount.

It's still a lot of money. For those who use ed disct, that is STILL a LOT of money!!!:/:/

[Spykes424]

I know this is off topic, but does anyone know where the default apple/aqua/panther icons are stored on the hd?

[session]

Mac HD::Lib::Desktop Pics

[Fusion]

Dashboard is a gui function that's been around for YEARS. Konfab AND Apple ripped off Stardock, and I'm sure Stardock got their idea from someone.

Okay, that is all well and fine. But you have to admit that Dashboard and Konfabulator look almost exactly alike, no? I am not suggesting that they sue Apple or anything, I just would have appreciated it if Apple maybe bought Konfabulator and made it better or hired Arlo.

cmd+tab?  Ok...Apple used what Proteron stole from Windows, which I'm sure stole it from someone else. 

Yes, they have. But the semi-transparent black box with the full size icons in the middle of the screen, all in one line with a 5px white border around them changing the transparency of the box within was something new. Lite switch were the original creators and Apple's implementation of this feature was 99 percent the exact same. The general rule when borrowing code or graphics is that for legality it has to be changed at least 30 percent right? cmd+tab was not even 2 percent changed. I am not suggesting Apple sat down and stole their code, but this is pretty clear where they got their idea, same with Konfabulator. I am not suggesting that it is a bad idea or that Apple's implementation is some how worse than the original, but it would have been nice if they would have at least given some credit where credit is due not even mentioning approaching the developers for a license agreement.

So let's follow your logic Superfula. "No, that graphic is not copyright because you just used pictures that someone else made and those pictures have colors in them that God made, so really, your work is just a rip of God. So there ya go, I can copy whatever I want and its fine."

Nice try.

Application switchers are nothing new

Yes, neither are text-editors. That doesn't mean that I can find a copy of MS Word's source, rename it to Josh's Word and then redistribute it and call it my own.

Watson ripped Sherlock.  Sherlock already had the tools that Watson stole.  Sherlock 2 was a logical progression in application upgrades.

Okay?

Well if you were a developer, you should feel proud that you ripped your idea off from someone else then.

So what does this conclude? No one can ever create anything original anymore because no matter what it has already been done in some shape or form?

[sebaz]

...im used to windows where you just double click the time for a calendar, and opening date and time properties via a menu was too much of a pita...

Just run ical, thats what i do then do Cmd+Tab to see a closer look at the date, if u cant make it out from the dock

[hoyablue]

Okay, that is all well and fine. But you have to admit that Dashboard and Konfabulator look almost exactly alike, no? I am not suggesting that they sue Apple or anything, I just would have appreciated it if Apple maybe bought Konfabulator and made it better or hired Arlo.

Yes, they have. But the semi-transparent black box with the full size icons in the middle of the screen, all in one line with a 5px white border around them changing the transparency of the box within was something new. Lite switch were the original creators and Apple's implementation of this feature was 99 percent the exact same. The general rule when borrowing code or graphics is that for legality it has to be changed at least 30 percent right? cmd+tab was not even 2 percent changed. I am not suggesting Apple sat down and stole their code, but this is pretty clear where they got their idea, same with Konfabulator. I am not suggesting that it is a bad idea or that Apple's implementation is some how worse than the original, but it would have been nice if they would have at least given some credit where credit is due not even mentioning approaching the developers for a license agreement.

So let's follow your logic Superfula. "No, that graphic is not copyright because you just used pictures that someone else made and those pictures have colors in them that God made, so really, your work is just a rip of God. So there ya go, I can copy whatever I want and its fine."

Nice try.

Yes, neither are text-editors. That doesn't mean that I can find a copy of MS Word's source, rename it to Josh's Word and then redistribute it and call it my own.

Okay?

So what does this conclude? No one can ever create anything original anymore because no matter what it has already been done in some shape or form?

Better be careful there, Superfula on his throne of "unbiasness" might declare you to be a "Mac Fanboy".

[KeR]

After watching the entire presentation I have concluded one thing; OSX is far more advanced then Longhorn, in fact it's years ahead of it. Microsoft has a long way before they can get anything close to Tiger's performance and features.

[Tim Dorr Veteran]

[malebolgia Veteran]

It's still a lot of money. For those who use ed disct, that is STILL a LOT of money!!!:/:/

Yeah, I was planning on spending a good $1,500 any ways on a certain CRT, but Sony decided to stop making it so I'm looking around:happy:y:

[Southern Patriot]

I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying is, that if everyone is copying everyone else, then accept that, and don't threaten to sue or toss around cease and desist orders like Apple is so damn quick to do. It's hypocritical.

As I said before, Apple only tends to go after those that use their copyrighted images in their software. I'm sure that if someone made an exact copy of the Start menu and taskbar that worked on OS X, Microsoft would be happy to sue the developer.