Styles XP in serious trouble already

[Mr White]

WindowBlind = Crapware:D

[Mr White]

>>P.S. Brad Wardell is such an idiot : Never tell him WB sucks or >>your making a death wish

I agree whenever you tell him there is a problem he always blames it on your system or something other then WindowBlinds! He'd have a great career in politics. I was looking

for his post in the Stardock newsgroup, but cannot find it now,

where he now is making claims that WindowBlinds is three times faster then the native XP themes. LOL.......... In all fairness the

new WB 3 Beta 8 is faster then the old WB 2 but its still slow

any just as buggy. :ermm:

[Binary]

I was a little harsh in saying that your making a death wish, he has never threatened me, but other WB users have! lol :D

[baphomet_irl Veteran]

Originally posted by kosmo

(writing this, assuming all of us have paid for our copy of windows)

now then.

when you buy a car, are you supposed to contact your manufacturer if you want to buy new wheels? how about a stereo? leapord seat covers? maybe hang a scented leaf off our mirror to make it smell better? do they really expect us to wait for them to let us know that its OK to make our car smell better?

NO

so, when we PAY for windows, we OWN the software. we can do whatever we feel like doing, as long as we dont hurt anyone and stay legal. theres nothing illegal about modifying YOUR PAID FOR COPY of windows. just dont expect to get tech support from it.

as always, just my $.02

Exactly what i wanted to say, i was gonna use a house and paint analogy, but then i didn't bother....

Nice one kosmo!

:D

[Mr White]

:D

[Binary]

Also in the newsgroups I have seen, he blames the XP skinning engine saying that all WB does is work through that, so I find it funny that hes now saying WB is 3x faster :ermm: Does this make sense to you?

[Mr White]

I've had him pegged a while back when I was asking him some serious questions about the performance probs in WB. He just

started a smoke and mirrors routine . Blaming other programs

computers fault , Microsofts fault and on and on. His followers

are just as bad they act is if WB is the second coming, kinda of like

members of a cult. Heres one they use, its faster because benchmarks prove it your eyes cannot percieve . Man, I'd like

to sell these folks a bridge :}

[betax]

Well what I hear is people are worried aout buggy themes that people would make.. The only thing a person making a theme could get wrong is the bitmaps. If someone did make a mistake in this file it would not cause windows itself to act buggy.. XP's skin engine is very stable. Granted, that if they moved the close buttons and such we may have problems.

For those of you who have removed toothpaste I suggest putting it back in. Why not make your own theme? The only reason I installed Toothpaste is to be able to modify the windows .msstyles files.

Regardless, if TGT soft gets in trouble... we allready have the file we need and "we" do not doing anything againsed the law if we modifiy our own windows for our own use. yet we may violate the EULA or perhaps end are service/support.

What I plan to do is put this modified uxtheme.dll into my CD "ie removing the uxtheme.dl_ and putting the uxtheme.dll in it" as well as change the default themes on the CD.

[ikyouCrow]

this is kinda like burning cds.

i think as long as TGT doesn't sell StylesXP, they may be safe.

nothing the courts hate more than someone hacking someone else to make money.

and they didn't hack the UXTHEME.DLL, they replaced it.

so technically, they really are not doing anything wrong, yet.

it's like u and me replacing our My Computer icons. is that illegal? as long as we don't gain from it financially.

[ikyouCrow]

Originally posted by betax

What I plan to do is put this modified uxtheme.dll into my CD "ie removing the uxtheme.dl_ and putting the uxtheme.dll in it" as well as change the default themes on the CD.

spoken like a true cracker.

[betax]

Heh I allways personalize my OS/CD I cant wait to intergrate SP1 (when it is released) onto a CD with XP so I can streemline the install. I also am figuring a way to intergrate the XP Powertoys into the ADD/REMOVE programs menu as well as on the CD (w/o using the unattended install). Boy do I love the NT5+ OSes ... there is soo much you can do

[Frogboy Administrators]

Well, I would take what "Binary" says with a grain of salt. He made the same baseless accusations on Usenet until people got sick of it.

I wrote an article that talks about skinning on Windows XP:

Windows XP Skinning explained

The good news for users is that because uxtheme.dll exists, there will probably be a LOT of companies or individuals who make things that will skin Windows XP. WindowBlinds isn't going to be the only choice in other words.

The reason why I or other people familiar with WindowBlinds will tend to not blame WindowBlinds is because it's not doing that much. Technical people know this - there isn't a heck of a lot of crazy coding involved to take a bitmap and blit it to the screen. WindowBlinds's job on Windows 98/ME/2000 is to take bitmaps and other resources and blit them to the screen.

The problem usually shows up on Windows 98/ME which only have a limited amount of GDI resources. Many people are already very low on resources and adding additional graphics to the GUI simply pushes it over the edge. That's why WindowBlinds works great for some people and terrible for others.

The only magic wand for users who want to skin Windows is to move to Windows 2000 or XP.

On Windows XP, Microsoft provided uxtheme.dll. And Microsoft created a skin format to use - .msstyles (do a search and you'll find luna.msstyles in your winntresources directory). Since it's MICROSOFT'S FORMAT they get to make the rules on how it's used and they decided, for various reasons, to make it so that only Microsoft could use it.

What Style XP does is patch the Windows system file uxtheme.dll to take out that security. Now how people feel about programs patching their system DLLs is going to depend on person to person. I won't comment on that here.

It then allows people to make their own .MSSTYLE files that can then be used by uxtheme.dll. StyleXP isn't a skinning program, it's just a uxtheme.dll crack. That's why it doesn' t have to run in memory.

WindowBlinds has its own format - .UIS. And a small program (smaller than notepad.exe - pop up your task list if you don't believe this) called wbload.exe takes the .UIS file and sends it over to uxtheme.dll using its APIs. Since we're not a .msstyle file, it doesn't care if we're Microsoft digitally signed.

Now, because WindowBlinds has additional features beyond what is in .msstyles, it has its own DLL called wblind.dll which handles those parts such as the title bar drawing. And it is at title bar drawing that WindowBlinds tests at 3X speeds on similar skins.

How do I know that? There is an open source project called SkinBench made by a third party. What it does is move and resize windows and test the speed of GUI controls.

SkinBench Source Forge Link

Most WindowBlinds skins are slower than Luna. That's because they're usually more complicated. But many WindowBlinds skins are much much faster as well because they are simpler or better optimized.

When/if people being to make their own .msstyle files they will discover the same problems - some .msstyle skins will be really slow. Others will be much faster.

A year from now, I doubt we'll be having these debates and we'll look back how silly they were because it'll all be about what skins do people want to use. They all, in the end, on XP use uxtheme.dll.

Skins will simply become like different graphics formats. Where Windows XP comes with .BMP support, other programs are the equivalent of adding .JPG and .GIF support and what not.

I don't think we see too many debates any more arguing whether PNG is better than JPG or better than BMP. They used to argue that though. But now people just use the graphic format that works best.

Hope that helps.

Brad

--

Brad Wardell

(Frogboy)

http://www.stardock.com

[Binary]

How nice of you to try starting trouble here, Mr. Wardell.

You are an F'ing loser ok? And many people know it and agree with me so just get lost, and stop reading my posts if you don't like them you lamer. :D

[Darrian]

I spend a bit of time reading these posts, mostly because sometimes I can find a decent skin and maybe check it out, or maybe I can get some sense of what is going on in the "skinning" community. The last few days, mostly since StylesXP came out, I have to wonder if most of you aren't f*ing idiots. I've been using Windowblinds for quite a while now, nearly a year. Hell, I didn't just buy Windowblinds, I bought the whole package, 'cos it was much cheaper that way than getting Windowblinds and Desktop X and all the other goodies individually. At the time Windows XP wasn't available (well, I had a really really early beta of it and the only way it really differed from Win2k was the Watercolor theme, which I thought was cool). Now fast forward to today, I'm running XP Pro and the Watercolor theme is gone, has been for a while now, and we got Luna which is okay. And I'm more or less happy with it, but I still gotta load Windowblinds 3 and see if it works as good as it's supposed to, and in the end I was disappointed and I uninstalled it because it just didn't skin the way it was supposed to, mostly minor glitches. The biggest problem was in keeping the XP start menu and taskbar in the "Luna" design, there have only recently been WB skins that skin it well, and I mean "well" loosely, because I have yet to see a decent WB skin that both looks great and skins the taskbar and start menu without reverting to the "Classic" visual style. Then this Styles XP thing pops up and I try it and hey, it looks wonderful. Of course I'm not big on the toothpaste style, I'm actually currently using the AquaBlue style, which is looking pretty good right now (Beta5). I even made my own msstyles theme, the first theme I ever made, and I found it was much easier to do that with reshack than it was to use Stardock's Skin Studio, don't ask me why, maybe I just think differently than other people. My skin even looked decent, but I was just playing around and it's not something I want to look at everyday, so I won't actually use it myself. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here is that everybody seems to be slamming on WB because their skins suck. Well, their skins are made by you and me, not Stardock. The skins for StylesXP will probably mostly be made by us as well. Everybody's slamming on StylesXP because they "hack" a tiny bit of code on Windows. Now, I gotta wonder, how many of you are going to loose money as a result of this? None. How many of you people are going to loose system stability or functionality if you dare install this? None. I think Windows pretty much sucks, but it's the "standard" platform. Windows XP is the best Windows I've ever seen, I'm impressed, but it still sucks. But since I can't play most of my games on any other OS I'm pretty much stuck using Windows or dual booting with Linux. I loved BeOS, but it's gone now, and that's another tale. What's the big deal, here, folks? I see morons who are probably 50 years old or some crap saying how they won't use StylesXP and then go on to say they won't use Windowblinds either because they're f*ing morons and think that beta software will screw up their pc, like they even know what they're talking about, because they don't, they're just paranoid. All of you are so eager to get in on this pathetic bashing crusade, because this software modifies one f*ing file, and a lot of you probably don't even own XP, you've probably burned yourself a copy of the easily obtainable "Devilsown" ISO or one of the many other disc images readily available on the net today, and yet you're going to sit here and whine about **** like this? Why, because you're not smart enough to do it yourself, so when somebody else figures it out you have to bash them? It doesn't really matter what you use, or if you use anything. If you like Luna, stick with Luna. If you want a skin, get a skinning program of some sort. I've read a lot of posts from people like me who are open minded and not part of a mob, and the following is not intended for those people. For the rest of you, GROW UP, and find something more productive to do with your time than bitch. I for one am sick of your whining..

[baphomet_irl Veteran]

now hangon darrian,

u make some good points, but the main reason that some ppl are slamming WB is because atm at least, it's skins do not fully skin XP (for example the start menu goes classic), whereas stylesXP themes do.....

anyway tbh, ive kinda changed my opinion a bit atm and ill wait to see the final version of WindowsBlinds before i decide which is 'better' (matter of opinion of course), but atm im rockin styles XP!

(althou i do have both installed)

[DJP]

Beos isn't gone Darrian. It's still rocking. :)

Everyone should try Beos once. It's really a great os. And it's very very stable and very very fast.

But there isn't so much software for it so it's pretty useless. :(

But anyway try it!! It's free. Download it from www.be.com. Only 40 MB.

[baphomet_irl Veteran]

welcome to neowin DJP

:)

yeh BeOS is cool!!

i had it installed, but i couldnt get my soundblaster to work...

:/

[Defiant]

"so, when we PAY for windows, we OWN the software. we can do whatever we feel like doing, as long as we dont hurt anyone and stay legal. theres nothing illegal about modifying YOUR PAID FOR COPY of windows. just dont expect to get tech support from it. "

You never own the software you have a license to run a copy of that software on your machine.

And as for modification - does reverse engineering a DLL not break the Software Agreement? or the EULA?

If they hacked a copy of the DLL then they broke the EULA by modifing code that was not theres to modify - they have changed a DLL that belongs to Microsoft it *does* not belong to anyone else not matter how much you paid for your software or how you got it.

Therefore Microsoft can chase these people up as they have broken the law - Just like you said with the .. "stay legal" any code changes that involve patching/changing or otherwise modifing a shipping DLL or EXE etc breaks the copyright laws protecting that product.

[Darrian]

I'm not perfectly happy with Windowblinds right now, either, which is why I'm not using it at the moment (though when the next beta comes out I may try it again). I'm just sick of all the bashing. Personally, I like StylesXP better, and I have seen far more bashing of StylesXP than I have of Windowblinds. I wasn't trying to defend one or the other, I was trying to get people to wake up and use their minds and perhaps say something constructive and useful instead of jumping the bashing bandwagon.

Defiant pretty much proved my point--It's Microsoft's responsibility to bitch and complain about EULA violations and whatnot, not ours.

And when I said BeOS was gone I was referring to the fact that Be sold out to Palm, who will likely not release a BeOS update as they are more interested in BEIA. On the upside, there is now the FreeBeOS project, but that could take years before we see results. I still use BeOS from time to time, at least I can play Quake2 on it, but it still lacks in software support...

If you can't get hardware to work on BeOS you can find a ton of drivers and freeware on http://www.bebits.com

[baphomet_irl Veteran]

yeh i tried bebits..no joy! :(

i went to all the forums - nothing either -

it's really annoying cos Soundblasters r SO common....

[Darrian]

I'm sorry to hear that, 'cos I used to have a soundblaster and it worked fine... wierd... if it's any consolation they don't have drivers for the card I have now (some cheap card I picked up until I can afford the Hercules Game Theatre XP), so I don't have any sound either...

[Frogboy Administrators]

I haven't seen bashing of styles XP per se. What I see is people pointing out what it does.

On many sites people are calling .msstyle skins "style xp" skins. Or put another way, a lot of people think Style XP is a skinning program.

Microsoft is the one who invented .msstyles and the skinning engine in XP, the credit (or bashing) should be directed at them.

I wrote an article that talks about this:

http://www.wincustomize.com/news_comments_....asp?NewsID=465

BTW, is it just me or does anyone else find it ironic that Binary, who is affiliated with Style XP (made by for profit company just like Stardock) and hasn't devulged his affiliation and has posted repeatedly personal attacks on me before I was even involved on this thread, would accuse ME of "stirring up trouble"?

There are going to be a LOT of skin programs for Windows XP. WinXP comes with uxtheme.dll. It's a powerful skinning engine.

But to use it you have to either hack out its security protection (which is what style XP does) or create your own skin format (that's what WindowBlinds does). I suspect that in time, skin formats on XP will be like graphics formats - lots of them and people will just use the ones that work for them.

[Binary]

Oh Please,

I thought this silly battle was over. You dont drag things said in newgroups to other messageboards. Why do people care? And I am not affiliated with TGTSoft other then I have beta tested a few things. Now, I havent said anything "bad" about WB here, if you want me to start I could name alot. But I wont as most people dont want to see that crap here. And "I am" stirring trouble? excuse me, have I said anything out of line? I said that you attack people who say anything bad about WB and it is true, and we can all see that your company is extremely jealous that the XP Skinning engine has been "cracked". So please let this be the end of it, I dont care about your software, and after I have seen the kind of pranks you pull I would not buy it if someone gave me the money to do so.

[Wickedkitten Veteran]

DMCA law is just the opposite. It would be used to protect a copyrighted

visual style from being seen by someone who did not pay for it. As in the

case of ebook, where protection was broken allowing a non-paying user to

view copyrighted material. We want our visual style to be seen. It is

free! No one has to pay for it. Please read the actual law before you

comment erroneously about it.

Direct derivative is simply untrue. I regret that this is coming from

Stardock which allowed releases Luna, Pre-Luna, Aqua, and WaterColor.

Microsoft is fully aware of what we are doing. We met with the entire XP

Shell team yesterday. You will kindly note that our site and download are

still up.

Please stop these slanderous remarks.

-Thomas Dimitri

President TGT Soft LLC

[Wickedkitten Veteran]

Originally posted by chrisa107

I don't think its such a big deal to manually edit the file or download a free crack; however i do think it is a big deal for a product to be sold that hacks another.

styles xp is free