Happy Indivisble Day Everybody

By Borg77
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lucidrain

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Keldyn

Well yes. After you went back and edited your post.:rolleyes:

That comment was there from the very START. I made it 100% clear when I first posted it. I am sure someone saw it if you do not believe me. I did NOT "put" that in.

Only things I have been editing are my typos and "wordings".

I am done editing, ok?

Farewell.

Mentor

IgwanaRob

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by intensityx

Uhh...do you know which side you are on??? You just expressed a quite liberal slant in your opinion, but in it you attacked liberals at the same time???....You are also defending Jesse Ventura, and you guessed it... he is a liberal. Maybe you should take a political quiz so you better understand which side you are on.

Political Quiz

No thanks, I hate politics as much as organized religion, and don't like being told I am anything but an individual. I am not defending Ventura - just saying he ain't a politician, so people should stop calling him one when they decide to bash him. The PC crowd (mostly liberals) is what's killing this country, and making it look bad just because they are afraid of offending this group, or that group - all in the name of hypocrisy (IOW, only if it suits their personal goals). At least Ventura speaks without fear of offending someone (never said I agreed with him) - that's one step above what most liberals do.

Grand Master

+BudMan MVC

Posted
  • MVC
Posted
Originally posted by Borg77

This athiest guy out in California that is representing her daughter is an example. His daughter is actually a Christian because her mother is Christian

What? So because the Mother is a xian - that makes the daughter one 2? Why is that? Does this girl not have freedom of choice? Why do you assume that she would choose the Mothers belief vs the Fathers views - or something else for that matter.

I do not know every detail of this case, but the point of the matter is - no matter what his agenda was that got it to court. Be it the father was using his daughter as a way to get the case heard. Be it even he wanted his 15 minutes of fame, it does not take away from the fact - it should not be there. It was not in the original version. And even if it was - it should be removed, since it does not reflect what this country is about.

There is a growing number of Americans that do not adhere to mainstream religons, and or even one at all. And a large amount of them do not believe in the xian god. So how does the "one nation under god" make sense??

How does the lack of words offend people?? If you want to make some promise to your god when you say the pledge, then that should be up to you. Not to anyone else. Your more than welcome to throw in a amen, god bless america at the end, pbuh, whatever. But why should I be expected to say it, or even hear it for that matter?

I do not have your beliefs, and IMHO the words make the pledge sound childish, ie to the effect one nation under the "Easter Bunny" - how would you feel if the majority of people in this country worshiped the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and you were expected to say "One Nation under the IPU" when you tried to express your support for this country.

-BudMan

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Borg77

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Originally posted by BudMan

Does this girl not have freedom of choice?

She did have freedom of choice and she volunteered to say it along with her classmates.

But as Fox News reported, Newdow admitted that his 8-year-old daughter voluntarily says the pledge along with her classmates.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=28160

So you see she chose to say it and wasn't forced. Even her Father admitted that.

How does the lack of words offend people?? If you want to make some promise to your god when you say the pledge, then that should be up to you. Not to anyone else. Your more than welcome to throw in a amen, god bless america at the end, pbuh, whatever. But why should I be expected to say it, or even hear it for that matter?

If you don't want to say it; you don't have to say it. The door is always open for you to go to the hallway so you don't have to listen to it. You have the freedom to go about your business doing your Athiest activities anytime anywhere without the state forcing religion down your throat.

You have a choice not to swear an oath to any god when you testify in court. You have a choice to say another oath instead. So don't give me this bull**** that your forced to do anything because you have the right to choose.

Community Regular

Celsyus

Posted
Posted

first of all, I agree with aem4162 about what he said, but I just wanted to comment about this:

Originally posted by BananaMan

I'm going to respectfully disagree here, hehe. I'm don't subscribe to any religion myself (not anymore, for some of the very reasons you've stated), but I'd like to think myself as a spiritual person.

Why you are very right about how bloody annoying it is when people try to cram religion down your throat, not all people are like that. I have a fair few christian friends, and why some are pretty nutty, a few others are really really cool. They believe in christianty but without the fundamentalism involved (such as the "It's god's will!" BS), they happily discuss with people about their religion but don't treat the rest of the non-christian world as flaming heretics. I'd like to say that most people who belong to a religion and nice and reasonable, but I really have nothing to back that up, all I know is not ALL of them are close-minded crackpots. And when I was chrisitan, I definately wasn't like that, I detested that behaviour.

Also, with your reference to the middle ages, I don't really think that's fair. The christians of today aren't responsible for what the other middle ages nutters did. It's sort of like blaming all the germans for the behaviour of the Nazi party, y'know?

Anyway, that's just my two cents!

I just wanted to say that this was a bold, yet well thought-out post in my opinion, to disagree about the matter where all others have agreed. gj :)

Grand Master

Spyder Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
Originally posted by Borg77

Originally posted by BudMan

Does this girl not have freedom of choice?

How does the lack of words offend people?? If you want to make some promise to your god when you say the pledge, then that should be up to you. Not to anyone else. Your more than welcome to throw in a amen, god bless america at the end, pbuh, whatever. But why should I be expected to say it, or even hear it for that matter?

If you don't want to say it; you don't have to say it. The door is always open for you to go to the hallway so you don't have to listen to it. You have the freedom to go about your business doing your Athiest activities anytime anywhere without the state forcing religion down your throat.

You have a choice not to swear an oath to any god when you testify in court. You have a choice to say another oath instead. So don't give me this bull**** that your forced to do anything because you have the right to choose.

you just said the opposite to what he said. you just told him that he doesn't have to say it and can leave if he doesn't like it. He said that if its not there, you can add it on at the end for yourself if you want it there.

Theres no argument here. Just a "i had it first" mentality. Things change.

For example, here where I live in Southern Ontario, the "Lord's Prayer" was recited every morning when children went to school. A good 12 years ago, that was abolished from the schools. I think the reasoning was that because the religious beliefs were so diverse, if you wanted to pray, do it on your own time, and to whatever god (or whatever) that you believe in.

I think that this instance is the same. Take out the reference to God because too many people believe in different things, and add it on to the end if you want to.

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Fedr0

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Borg77

She did have freedom of choice and she volunteered to say it along with her classmates.

So you see she chose to say it and wasn't forced. Even her Father admitted that.

And do you really think that an eight years old kid has the mental faculty to understand that?

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Borg77

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Originally posted by Spyder

you just said the opposite to what he said. you just told him that he doesn't have to say it and can leave if he doesn't like it. He said that if its not there, you can add it on at the end for yourself if you want it there.

Theres no argument here. Just a "i had it first" mentality. Things change.

For example, here where I live in Southern Ontario, the "Lord's Prayer" was recited every morning when children went to school. A good 12 years ago, that was abolished from the schools. I think the reasoning was that because the religious beliefs were so diverse, if you wanted to pray, do it on your own time, and to whatever god (or whatever) that you believe in.

I think that this instance is the same. Take out the reference to God because too many people believe in different things, and add it on to the end if you want to.

Then take it out out of the Pledge but the point remains its everywhere. If you take it out of one thing; then you have to take it out of everything that has that reference.

Things do change in time like the slavery issue but most likely the pledge will still be the way it is and be reinstituted into the 9 western states within the next forty days.

But until that change occurs and more than half of the Congress and the Senate are Athiests then nothing will happen. JMHO.

Grand Master

BananaMan

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Celsyus

first of all, I agree with aem4162 about what he said, but I just wanted to comment about this:

I just wanted to say that this was a bold, yet well thought-out post in my opinion, to disagree about the matter where all others have agreed. gj :)

Hey, thank you :) I really appreciate that. By the way, I think aem4162 is a girl ;)

Grand Master

Spyder Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
Originally posted by Borg77

Then take it out out of the Pledge but the point remains its everywhere. If you take it out of one thing; then you have to take it out of everything that has that reference.

Things do change in time like the slavery issue but most likely the pledge will still be the way it is and be reinstituted into the 9 western states within the next forty days.

But until that change occurs and more than half of the Congress and the Senate are Athiests then nothing will happen. JMHO.

Well said, and I do think it should be taken out of everything that has reference to God.

I don't think this should be done for Athiests..or the decision made because athiests have the majority of the vote.. I think it should be done because many people believe in things other than a God. I definately don't think that makes them athiests.

Its too bad the Senate doesn't see the diversity and change things just for that simple fact.

Veteran

Borg77

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Originally posted by Spyder

Well said, and I do think it should be taken out of everything that has reference to God.

I don't think this should be done for Athiests..or the decision made because athiests have the majority of the vote.. I think it should be done because many people believe in things other than a God. I definately don't think that makes them athiests.

Its too bad the Senate doesn't see the diversity and change things just for that simple fact.

You have to remember also that it should not be politically motivated but it has to be the will of the people to change it. Separation of church and state was a good thing since most of Europe at that time was State/Church combined which caused lots of problems.

The only misconception today is that we grew this country to what it is today. It is different than 1776 was because nearly all Americans believed in some form of Creator, hence the Declaration of Independence.

One individual's political views shouldn't be thwarted on the whole country but all the people have to speak on the issue. Why not have an open forum where citizens and politicians alike can discuss the situation? And not just the politicians themselves who are basically told what to do by their advisors and or campaign backers.

The indivisble day was a political move by an Athiest group to impose their will on the whole state where nobody even voted on it. The same goes for the pledge. Why not put the pledge on the midterm election ballots in November where people can vote to have the pledge removed or not removed from schools? Then the voices of America will be heard.

In conclusion, its not right to make decisions that are politically motivated but it should be voices of the people of that country.

Grand Master

+BudMan MVC

Posted
  • MVC
Posted
Originally posted by Borg77

You have a choice not to swear an oath to any god when you testify in court. You have a choice to say another oath instead. So don't give me this bull**** that your forced to do anything because you have the right to choose. [/b]

Where did I say anything about forced?? I said expected to, if the class is saying the pledge - and they are "taught" to say "ONUG", and the majority of people are saying it. It would seem to me, this child would expect she/he should be saying it too. You are correct there is Nothing forcing her/him to say it - but I find it highly unlikely the child will walk out of the classroom, while the rest of the class recites the pledge.

And what - the child does not get to say the pledge with rest of her/his class - due to the fact she/he does not agree with 2 words of it??

How about leave them out - who loses in this?? If anyone is forcing anything on anyone - it is the xians. Why should someone that does not agree with your beliefs have to go into the hall??

I still do not understand why people get so offended on the possibility of leaving words out of the pledge, that have nothing to do with what it is saying. You are pledging your support to our nation. Why people insist on putting something in there that is not true, and nowhere close to the make up of this country. This is not ONUG, and never will be, no matter what the xian's want to believe. This country was founded on just that.

"one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" is statement of what this country is and stands for - what does anyones god have to do with this??

-BudMan

Grand Master

Spyder Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
Originally posted by Borg77

Why not put the pledge on the midterm election ballots in November where people can vote to have the pledge removed or not removed from schools? Then the voices of America will be heard.

In conclusion, its not right to make decisions that are politically motivated but it should be voices of the people of that country.

agreed completely

Collaborator

grimlock

Posted
Posted
"one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" is statement of what this country is and stands for - what does anyones god have to do with this??

On this point I agree. It is a pledge to the country, not to a religious entiity (God or otherwise). It's not like taking it out makes me forget my beliefs, or lack therof. The Under God was only added in an attempt to rebuff communism, which was seen as a "Godless State" several decades ago.

Not detailed, but my 2cents.

Mentor

IgwanaRob

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Borg77

Ok Mr. IgwanaRob. I don't think its a slap at religion and I am not a liberal either. But the fact remains is that I could have easily sent in a proclamation wanting my agenda to be fowarded. However, I have neither an agenda or a goal at destroying this wonderful country I live in like this athiest group wanted to do.

How are they trying to destroy this country?

Originally posted by Borg77

Its people like you sir that want to destroy our country and tear down any decency it STILL has. This athiest guy out in California that is representing her daughter is an example. His daughter is actually a Christian because her mother is Christian and the Father even admits that she said the Pledge voluntarily. Therefore, he has an agenda driven ideology just like you who want to tear down our country so you liberal freaks can take it over. But I can tell you this you won't succeed.

People like me? Excuse me jackass? Apparently, and obviously, you ARE the one with an agenda. You seem to think anyone who is an Atheist is inherently wrong. Aside from your obvious belief that you are better than Atheists (an obvious trait of the hypocritically based Christian religion), you are trying to accuse me of being a liberal and trying to tear down the country. Bite me. Seriously, take your hypocritical BS and bite me.

Originally posted by Borg77

Here is the article on the Athiest Father controversy.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=28160

This guy is one gigantic moron. Granted, the Under God phrase should never have been injected into the pledge, he's also trying to get In God We Trust removed from out money, and wants to change our language to a more PC, non gender specific nature. (http://www.arizonarepublic.com/news/articl...ledgedad01.html). Instead of removing the phrase, it's now illegal to even say the Pledge in a public school - removing the choice that is guaranteed by the Bill of Rights/Constitution.

First off, this country was founded because the people wanted the freedom to practice religion, any religion, without persecution. God, the Christian God, was what happened to be their choice. It's is part of the history of this country. It is not an endorsement by the government, nor is it claiming that it is the official religion/belief of the government. It is simply part of out history. Nobody says citizens should believe in God, or which God (or Gods) to believe in - but how dare anyone try to remove it from out history. That is disgraceful and disrespectful to everything this country is based on. It is part of out history, and should not be tampered with. Disagree with it, fine - but do not try to change it.

Originally posted by Borg77

So you see that this guy, unlike yourself IgwanaRob, want to impose your beliefs on us. This guy is on a rampage just like what Jesse Ventura has done with our Independence Day (a.k.a Indivisble Day now) because they have nothing to loose. This country wouldn't exist and you wouldn't of existed either if it weren't for our Declaration of Independence, Constitution, etc.

Wow, are you confused. Am I forcing my beliefs on anyone or not - you seem to jump back and forth on this. Let's get this straight - Ventura did nothing with the Federal Holiday of Independence Day. He simply declared that in his state, it is officially 'Indivisible Day'. Only in Minnesota, not the entire country. He has every right to do that, and it's done in every state all the time, as well as in individual towns in individual counties in states. Are you offended when a town declares a day as Official Pig Race day? What if it fell on another national holiday - say Thanksgiving. Would you think that they are trying to ruin the country by renaming Thanksgiving Pig Race Day? Truly mind-boggling.

Just because you cannot comprehend the difference between a National, Federal holiday and a day of recognition in a state, doesn't mean you should attack and accuse. You name 2 very important documents, yet obviously have no clue what they say or mean.

Originally posted by Borg77

Now you say that Jesse Ventura is a True American. You sir are wrong. Independence day should remain Independence Day but this bad ass wrestling type can do anything he wants because he has the power to do so.

Again, he did NOT change the national holiday - get that through your head.

Originally posted by Borg77

Also, I do freely admit that people that represent the Christian Faith at the top like Pat Robertson should be exiled. The reason being he is doing the same thing that Michael Newdow and Jesse Ventura are trying to do which is imposing beliefs on others. I don't condone Pat Robertson's ideology at all and he doesn't represent me when he speaks against non-believers. You have the CHOICE to believe what you want to believe. Thats up to you and only you.

Ahh, the hypocrisy continues. You freely admit, how nice. Here again, you show your contempt for "non-believers", in the same breathe that you say people have the right to a "CHOICE". (apparently as long as that choice is belief in some religion) Funny, you seem to be pushing religion quite a bit, while putting down people who you falsely accuse of imposing their views on people.

Lets get one thing straight - the entire Politically Correct movement, largely made up of Liberals, is what is destroying this country. They claim to be trying to remove racial boundaries, and make it a nicer place to live - when in reality they are segregating this country by separating people into religious, political, and racial groups and pitting them against each other in a race to see which group can accuse the most people of offending them.

Mentor

IgwanaRob

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by lucidrain

I can not believe what some people are saying. I never post topics on Neowin, but I am now. First of all, I would NEVER FORCE my "religion" on ANYONE. But you all are honestly trying to sit there and say that there is NO god?! So basically you are saying that you were put here on this earth just to live and die and that is it? That your life has absolutely no meaning whatsoever? We just live to die, and... The End. That's it, and there is no more anything?

Just something to think about.

Goodbye.

So you think people who believe that there is nothing else, nor a god, should think about what - changing that belief? Why must you have a problem accepting that someone else may have a belief structure different than your own, and may in fact believe in nothing at all?

Mentor

IgwanaRob

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by BudMan

What? So because the Mother is a xian - that makes the daughter one 2?

xian?

You meant Christian.

As much as I don't like the religion (or at least some of it's denominations), I dispise the use of, and people who use that disgusting abbreviation. It Christian, and Christmas - NOT xian, and xmas. The religion and the holiday are named after a person - not a letter of the alphabet. Just because you do not like or believe in the reigion, doesn't mean you should insult it, the person it was named after, and it's followers with an insulting abbreviation. Calling Christians xians like calling Jewish people << racial epithet >>'s, because you don't believe in their religion and it's easier to type.

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