Lomex Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 My question is, what is the difference between the two? Or what you think the difference is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 sp00nman Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 I'm both a web designer (interface/visual) and web developer (backend). I think both are equally hard to do... being a web developer takes a lot of time, patience, and effort. When things go wrong you can easily get frusterated because writing/editing code is something that is not easy at all to do. It requires a ton of patience and calmness. Being a web designer is also hard because you still work with html, another code language. Although html isnt the hardest language to understand, it can become difficult when dealing with complex elements and placing in tables. Flash is also difficult to do sometimes. A web designer needs a lot of creativity, and also must put a lot of time into constructing a balanced, readable, yet eye-appealing design. Both sides are equally hard in my opinion, but it takes longer to become a web developer because learning all these scripts and codes are time consuming. However you cant just pickup Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro and learn it in a day and become fantastic with it. Both sides take awhile to get comfortable with and deserve a lot of credit. Just my opinions. :) Edit: just a shameless plug for my up and coming sites: http://www.gamedaytalk.com and http://www.findyoursong.com. Look for something to pop up real soon on GDT in the next week or so. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 John Doe Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 "...because learning all these scripts and codes are time consuming." When did learning scripts and codes become thought of as programing? I consider scripts and codes to be part of the Web Designer's job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 sp00nman Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by John Doe "...because learning all these scripts and codes are time consuming." When did learning scripts and codes become thought of as programing? I consider scripts and codes to be part of the Web Designer's job. So what you're saying is that writing all scripts and codes are part of the web designer's job... that includes php, too? And cgi? And database coding? Please, dont insult my experience. The web designer's job is to take care of graphics, flash, appearance, html, javascript, and anything that you actually see. The web developer's job is to program the backend, taking care of the scripting for the database, and putting together all the goodies that you dont see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 John Doe Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 I consider Web Development entailing anything that a Web Designer can't do. I imagine most Web Developers can handle script code, as long as its not at the level of writing stored procedures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 sp00nman Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by John Doe I consider Web Development entailing anything that a Web Designer can't do. I imagine most Web Developers can handle script code, as long as its not at the level of writing stored procedures. Well that's actually pretty close to my opinion, it just seemed like you were implying that a web developer doesnt even touch a single script (in your previous post). Sorry for the temper I may have let out. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 John Doe Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by sp00nman Well that's actually pretty close to my opinion, it just seemed like you were implying that a web developer doesnt even touch a single script (in your previous post). Sorry for the temper I may have let out. :D Don't take anything I say too personally. Its all good. :-) I really not that big a fan of Web Development. I got burnt out on it after a couple years. Once I did 5 or 6 large web sites the thrill was gone for me. Personally I wish I didn't ever have to touch a piece of script. I got into programming because I enjoy the creative aspects of it. I feel that script is more about coding mundane task than actually anything complex or rewarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 CitruS Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by John Doe I don't know if you should put both down. If you put "Web Developer" people won't take you seriously. And don't put ASP, JSP, PHP, etc. either. Those are scripting languages and not real programming languages. I don't know. Maybe those languages are what people mean by Web Developer. I personally take the title to mean fluency in C++, Java, COM+, and SQL. John Doe, no offense at all but I suggest you learn more about what you're talking about. You are out of your league. ASP, JSP and PHP and exactly what companies are looking for in Web Developers. The demand of PHP is less because many companies are uneducated about the advantages PHP has over ASP and sometimes JSP. Remember we're talking about Web Developing and Designing. People don't use C++, Java, COM+ for webprogramming. Well, people do, but they're not popular on the web. They are not as powerful as ASP, PHP and JSP because they have to run through interfaces such as CGI. I am a Web Developer and I have Adobe Photoshop. I code PHP, Perl and im learn JSP. I absolutely suck with Adobe Photoshop. When I create scripts for people, I feel like I'm doing the easier job. This is all opinion actually. I view Web Designing as the harder job. The design is what catches the users attention. Whether its professionalism or a personal website. Although Programming is backend, that doesn't mean the users cannot see it. No software is free of bugs. It would be foolish for anyone to say their script or software is bug free. It all comes down to personal opinion. I'm still young and have no come to the part to look for a career etc. I would suggest putting, I dunno, Webmaster because you are good in both. If you have a stronger side, such as Programming, I would go with Web Developing and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 John Doe Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 I couldn't disagree more. "ASP, JSP and PHP and exactly what companies are looking for in Web Developers" I don't really consider scripting as programming. Maybe that is where our disagreement is occurring. Programmers usually hate to do scripting. They would rather find a entry-level programmer to do it. "People don't use C++, Java, COM+ for web programming. Well, people do, but they're not popular on the web. " I guess you haven't programmed any high volume sites like online banking. "I view Web Designing as the harder job." I guess that is why so many more people have a harder time with art in school than math. And all those art anxiety books. "The design is what catches the users attention" What in the world does that have to do with how hard something is? No explaination necessary. "When I create scripts for people, I feel like I'm doing the easier job." You are compared to programming. "I dunno, Webmaster because you are good in both. If you have a stronger side, such as Programming, I would go with Web Developing and vice versa" That is ridiculous. Why would you put down the less prestigious title? Real Web Developers make a lot more money than designers. [update] I just noticed that the name of this forum was "Web Programming (HTML, JAVA, PHP, XML etc...) " so I guess people do consider HTML/PHP, etc. programming. I guess I consider that Web Programming for Web Developers or entry-level programmers. I am taking about something different (i.e. Stored Procedures, Middle-tier MTS/COM objects, etc.) Ok, I'm big enough too admit I was wrong. Between script programming and web designing I agree they are pretty much at the same level. Although I still think script program may be a little harder than design just for the fact there is some logic involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Tribal Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Wow, I cant believe what im reading. John Doe obviously you are one of those Math/Science vs. Art/Music people. you believe that its harder and requires more effort. And you are stubborn for that. I'd love for you to take a step in a web designer's shoes. Ok your working for a brand new company... and guess what they have no idea what they want. but they do give you two colors. ohhhh gues what. the color's clash. Now open up your Photoshop, open up your Flash and comepletely design them a professional site using what little information they gave you. Not to mention, corperate identitiy *logo's and such*, this company is relying on you to shove they're image into a bloated media and come out on top. And what if this company wanted it all done on a deadline.... no pressure there eh. Good luck, All im saying is I respect web designers and programmers I really do, but i really cant stand it when they're stubborn and dont seem to understand how much effort it requires to think of innovative ideas, to attract customers and to keep them there. everyone is different and you have to account for each and everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 onyxcorp Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 John Doe, I do graphics and coding, as most web designers do. I also make more money than you'll ever make, you panzy ass wipe. Oh, and you seem like the kind of guy that would know, so I'll ask: Can you recommend me any good exercises to tighten the rectum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Abyzmic Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 I'm a web developer and I certainly enjoy it more than the design because I get more out of it. The only problem is that the average user doesn't even understand how much effort I may put into a web application so I only get the short end of the stick when it comes to the web designers. The only people that really understand how hard it can be are the designers and of course my boss. The users see all the flash, graphics, and feel of the website and never get to see the compiled code... and if so, most wouldn't understand it anyway. Oh well... that's my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 condorstats Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Well im an art failure, so i find the development side easier, and well im gald that John Doe is here to say all the dumb stuff i usually would :p j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 CitruS Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 "People don't use C++, Java, COM+ for web programming. Well, people do, but they're not popular on the web. " When you say Java, do you mean applets or web programs. Java is the compiled version of JSP. That means, the first person to run JSP will compile it and it will be as fast as Java. You cannot run script through C++ unless your use a CGI interface. CGI has proven itself to be slow and cost the server alot of resources. The large sites are coded in Java/JSP Servlets and Coldfusion. The big boys use The Microsoft SQL as an backend, well, usually... Designing is harder than Coding because you have to please the eye, meet the needs and keep the loading times fast. Programming, all you have to do is some (not alot) math and again, keep the queries low and keep the script running quick. Before I start a complex script I layout a plan. Like which parts of the scripts will be getting what information, etc. John, think before you post. And as for you onyxcorp, don't call anyone asswipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 condorstats Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by John Doe [update] I just noticed that the name of this forum was "Web Programming (HTML, JAVA, PHP, XML etc...) " so I guess people do consider HTML/PHP, etc. programming. I guess I consider that Web Programming for Web Developers or entry-level programmers. I am taking about something different (i.e. Stored Procedures, Middle-tier MTS/COM objects, etc.) dude, dont insult the people who know Java PHP XML etc... by saying "entry level programmers" thats such bs. I learnt C and C++ before i even look at a web site, and i think making my site good is at least 10 times more challenging. For programming, you do what you know, and it works. For a site, you do what you think will be right, it may or may not be liked, and so you start again. lol, this gets funnier the more i read you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 CitruS Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by condorstats dude, dont insult the people who know Java PHP XML etc... by saying "entry level programmers" thats such bs. I learnt C and C++ before i even look at a web site, and i think making my site good is at least 10 times more challenging. For programming, you do what you know, and it works. For a site, you do what you think will be right, it may or may not be liked, and so you start again. lol, this gets funnier the more i read you. IMO, JSP is harder than C++. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 John Doe Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 "Oh, and you seem like the kind of guy that would know, so I'll ask: Can you recommend me any good exercises to tighten the rectum?" I have to admit ... that was funny. :p "IMO, JSP is harder than C++." That was pretty funny too. "I do graphics and coding, as most web designers do" I rarely see a person doing graphics and coding in my experience. Mostly I see Web Designers only doing graphics and client side coding (script). Usually people concentrate on one job or the other. I admit, if you can write highly scaleable middle-tier objects and still have the time to understand the nuances of style-sheets you are pretty talented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 iUk Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by John Doe I admit, if you can write highly scaleable middle-tier objects and still have the time to understand the nuances of style-sheets you are pretty talented. Well, thank you, I do think of myself as fairly talented. You need to get beyond your own personal predjudices and recognize that there are people out there who are creative and want to be designers and graphic artists, and there are those who enjoy working with databases and programming languages (and yes, ASP, JSP, PHP, HTML, XML, etc. are all languages, no matter how relatively complex they are compared to the C languages, Java, or even Visual Basic.Net which has recently come into it's own as a language). Either choice that a person makes is their own and they are equally talented in their own ways. Just because you don't seem to understand the complexity of graphic and interface design, doesn't mean they aren't complex or require any level of skill. Please make sure that you respect everyone's abilities and their right to have pride in the skills that they have before you make comments that they are junior-level or not as smart as you apparently think you are. iUk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 CitruS Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 "IMO, JSP is harder than C++."That was pretty funny too. With the limited amount of knowledge your head is capable of holding, I know why you find that funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 mdsalih Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 /me likes to call him self a Web Architect :D MdSalih Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 John Doe Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by CitruS With the limited amount of knowledge your head is capable of holding, I know why you find that funny. Are you serious? No programmer in the world would think JSP is harder than C++. JSP is a scripting language where the objects you call have already been written (by a programmer lol). I do believe that Web Designers have a lot of talent. I guess I just differ in that I don't think it is as hard as non script-based programming. Everybody that I know that does web design has come from an entirely different line of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Lomex Posted August 3, 2002 Author Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by CitruS With the limited amount of knowledge your head is capable of holding, I know why you find that funny. Dude, you telling me that JSP is harder than C++??? Do you know what JSP is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 CitruS Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by Lomex Dude, you telling me that JSP is harder than C++??? Do you know what JSP is? Yet I know the difference and I've tried both. I'm talking about C++ vs. JSP where C++ doesn't go farther than the ms dos window. and again its my opinion. I have only done a little of both and I find C++ easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Lomex Posted August 3, 2002 Author Share Posted August 3, 2002 Well if you just did a little bit of each, don't be sure of your conclusions.. I see you don't know the full potential of C++... JSP (Java Server Pages) is like ASP (Active Server Pages), but not a microsoft language. I don't think you can develop any games in JSP can you? Or actual applications? If you can, than hats off to you dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 pinhead Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 As a web developer, I can honestly say that designing databases that work effectively is as hard as designing something that looks good. What matters is the team - the sum of developers and designers. With out the interaction of the two, you have nothing. What really matters is your clients - they should get what they want - check out some of our clients - Weetabix (www.weetabix.co.uk) or London Luton Airport (www.london-luton.co.uk) - they got EXACTLY what they want and get 160,000+ visitors a month. This was a team effort and as the database developer, it wouldn't have happened without the designers or the bog-standard ASP developers. What matters most is doing what you are most competent at. The only thing separting designer from developer is the area of competance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 CitruS Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Originally posted by Lomex Well if you just did a little bit of each, don't be sure of your conclusions.. I see you don't know the full potential of C++... JSP (Java Server Pages) is like ASP (Active Server Pages), but not a microsoft language. I don't think you can develop any games in JSP can you? Or actual applications? If you can, than hats off to you dude. No, no, I know JSP is for the web and C++ is for the computer and the web (cgi)... I'm not making conclusions, its my opinion and I think C++ is easier. jsp makes my head hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Lomex
My question is, what is the difference between the two? Or what you think the difference is...
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