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web designer vs. web developer

Asked by Lomex,

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John Doe

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Originally posted by pinhead

As a web developer, I can honestly say that designing databases that work effectively is as hard as designing something that looks good. What matters is the team - the sum of developers and designers. With out the interaction of the two, you have nothing.

What really matters is your clients - they should get what they want - check out some of our clients - Weetabix (www.weetabix.co.uk) or London Luton Airport (www.london-luton.co.uk) - they got EXACTLY what they want and get 160,000+ visitors a month. This was a team effort and as the database developer, it wouldn't have happened without the designers or the bog-standard ASP developers. What matters most is doing what you are most competent at. The only thing separting designer from developer is the area of competance.

So you are saying you wouldn't mind being paid the same as a web designer?

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+Fahim S. MVC

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WEB DESIGNER

Photoshop

Flash

HTML

i.e. Usability Expert

WEB DEVELOPER

HTTP

ASP/PHP/Java/Perl

XML

SQL

HTML/WAP

i.e. Engine Expert

Sorted :cheeky: !

BTW

JSP is Java Server Pages. JSP is not a language but a method of embedding Java code within web pages... it is definitely more powerful than ASP being compiled into bytecodes (rather than interpreted VBScript), with a much better support for an object model. C++ was a great langauge in it's day but it required too much of an attention to detail (i.e. in memory management) that it led to many programmers producing erroneous or unsafe code. Hence Java was born as a safe environment... and yes you can program entire applications and games in Java.... it isn't as fast but then C++ has had a 15 year (?) headstart in the compiler race..... Get me?

PEEEZ

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Proficient

Oogle

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C++ was a great langauge in it's day...
Wow, that's a bold statement. C++ was a great language? Considering that all my favorite apps (NAV, Winamp, Photoshop, LAME, OGG, Winzip, IE, Nero, PowerDVD, etc.) are all written in C++, I would think C++ is still a great language.
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CitruS

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Originally posted by Oogle

Wow, that's a bold statement. C++ was a great language? Considering that all my favorite apps (NAV, Winamp, Photoshop, LAME, OGG, Winzip, IE, Nero, PowerDVD, etc.) are all written in C++, I would think C++ is still a great language.

I agree.... Its the best for programming (for the computer, not for the web)

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Neowinian

mille

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Originally posted by pinhead

As a web developer, I can honestly say that designing databases that work effectively is as hard as designing something that looks good. What matters is the team - the sum of developers and designers. With out the interaction of the two, you have nothing.

What really matters is your clients - they should get what they want - check out some of our clients - Weetabix (www.weetabix.co.uk) or London Luton Airport (www.london-luton.co.uk) - they got EXACTLY what they want and get 160,000+ visitors a month. This was a team effort and as the database developer, it wouldn't have happened without the designers or the bog-standard ASP developers. What matters most is doing what you are most competent at. The only thing separting designer from developer is the area of competance.

Totally agree...:)

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RevNX

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I'm both... I love doing both, it ussualy depends on my mood. But I love programming better...

Originally posted by John Doe

Web Designer - A job that anyone can pick up fairly quicky and easily.

Web Developer - A job that requires aptitude in math/logic and years of training.

That is TOTALLY WRONG.

For one, lets start with a Designer. You need inspiration, creativity, yes practice, but you can't just "pick it up." It's a skill that needs to be achieved and not everyone can achieve it, well not everyone can at the same time at least. Every web designer also has their own style. In no way can you "pick up" web designing unless you are refering to the languages that drive it such as HTML, or the programs that bring it to life, such as photoshop.

Second, a web developer does require a lot of math and logic but no it doesn't take "years of training." Most of the time it's better to learn on your own, not go to colleges for years and years and get "training." You become more experienced after the years, but it's not like you get trained for a few years and POOF you're a web developer. Not at all. Like web designing, it requires skill and you're own unique style.

ALSO!!!! A lot of you say and think of Perl as a "web language" Perl CAN BE that with the use of CGI but was not developed in the beginning for that. Perl was a small Unix language for driving systems and such because of it's easy IO to files and string manipulation. Most of the Perl programmers today still use it as a programming language and not just on the web with CGI. I just thought I'd say that because Perl is my favorite programming languages and it bugs me when people think it's just a web language..heh

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John Doe

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I seem to have a much different view of what a Web Developer is than other people on this board. If you consider Perl/HTML/etc. the languages that a Web Developer uses than I agree with you, both Web Designers and Web Developers jobs are about the same. Most of what I hear people on this board saying that a Web Developer does I consider to also be the job of a Web Designer.

I am not knocking the job of Web Designer/Developer. I just think being a programmer (C++/COM/SQL) is obviously mentally harder.

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+Fahim S. MVC

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Originally posted by John Doe

I seem to have a much different view of what a Web Developer is than other people on this board. If you consider Perl/HTML/etc. the languages that a Web Developer uses than I agree with you, both Web Designers and Web Developers jobs are about the same. Most of what I hear people on this board saying that a Web Developer does I consider to also be the job of a Web Designer.

I am not knocking the job of Web Designer/Developer. I just think being a programmer (C++/COM/SQL) is obviously mentally harder.

Firstly lets get one thing straight.... I am a developer of IP solutions (not the same as a web developer), my skillset includes everything from developing simple web pages to designing enterprise systems for the telco I work for.

My team is predominately a web team.... but because IP is now taking over all forms of development we now do development in a number of other areas, however I have always been a developer first, a web developer second -- the same path my career has followed.

In the development of a typical web site in our team a designer will provide the graphics, flash, css, layouts and a prototype, the web developer will code the html, javascript, and the back end.

Let me ask you a question....

Do these sound easy to you?

[small application - e.g. commercial promotion]

Write Pages (HTML)

Write database model definition (SQL)

Write database select, insert, update (SQL)

Write Back-End Code (ASP, HTML, SQL)

Add interaction (JavaScript, ASP)

Test

Deploy

[large application - e.g. web based mail]

Write Pages (HTML)

Write Back-End code (ASP, HTML)

Write Scripts to connect with middleware components (ASP, XML)

Write middleware components (Java, XML)

Write data components (Java, PL/SQL)

Write database (PL/SQL)

Write interaction (JavaScript, ASP)

Test

Deploy

Now compare this to a typical C++ programmer.

[some application - e.g. anything]

Write application (C++)

Write database (PL/SQL)

Spot the difference?

Well this is what most script kiddies do.... at least the first and when they are ready the second too......

By back-end code...I mean code that generate HTML..... these scenarios don't even consider dynamically generated JavaScript or XSLT as solutions. It is difficult to keep up with all technologies you need to know. This only shows one solution... other solutions can be the Web-service architecture, DNA (COM+), PHP, PERL, CGI, JSP (including servlets) and now .NET.

And you may laugh and think ASP is not a language... and you'd be right.... that's why every ASP programmer moans about it... we all want real program language features.....strong typing, object abstraction would have been nice (compilation too.... we got ASP.NET.... and I stop complaining). We don't know the errors until we run an application.... yes, no compile time debugging to make your life easier!

JSP is much better cos it gives you the real language features and it can use your real compiled objects and it has the same syntax.......know why? COS IT'S JAVA! yes, and that is a real language.

It can be seen that C++ is not a modern language.....but still the most powerfull... no doubt about that. It's productivity, however, is questionable.

I have also found that some developers used to the traditional model of application development find the shift to web development very difficult (because of the nuances of the HTTP protocol and dealing with 5 languages that have to work together to produce a coherent result)... Developers that move the other way don't seem to find it difficult at all.... probably because the web development model is far more complex.

I think I can essentially sum up what I've written in this essay....

I don't think that you quite understand quite how much skill is required to produce a good web application.... be it a site or something far more complex.

Anyway.... you got my 10cents worth that time.

ONE!

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