What's so great about Mozilla?

[VaxoP]

ok ive had enough.

its too bad there are so many microsoft haters out there that refuse to use a better product because it has a microsoft brand on it.

agentsmith, i dont kow what to tell you. of course im not going to load mozilla on startup, why would i? im not loading ie on startup. (and NO, explorer is not internet explorer. close down explorer.exe, open up internet explorer from the task manager - notice it still loads up in less than a second).

http://members.shaw.ca/d2store/moz1.JPG

http://members.shaw.ca/d2store/moz2.JPG

theres my proof. 3 windows, all maximized. first screen is when download.com has focus in mozilla, other is when ie has focus.

here are 2 other tests i did using visual basic 6:

Put both programs in visual basic to test (of course, gecko crashed the second i drew it on my form)

time to load download.com (deleted cache for both browsers for each trial)

Did 10 tests.

Mozilla: 4.206 seconds

IE: 3.671 seconds

once again this is without cache, so the lookup, download of images, and everything is started from scratch

Mozilla takes 11.2 seconds to start, internet explorer 0.6. Dont tell me explorer is linked to internet explorer cause thats BS. again, close explorer.exe, and launch ie - itll lload in the same amount of time.

Im done here i have to go to work. dont have time to argue with all the ignorant microsoft haters. proof is there, live with it

btw, agent, the screen you sent me shows explorer.exe using 29 mb of ram. explorer is not iexplore.exe. send me a screen of that please. your "proof" is not there. what i do see in that screen is mozilla using 28.980mb of ram, knidly scroll down and post how much iexplore is using.

[lazydesert]

the best thing about mozilla is that it renders that i have 2000 posts just IE would.

this is now the celebatory "lazydesert has 2000 posts" thread.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

You obviously have no idea on what your talking about. IE is loaded at startup. It leeches itself into all eliments of THE OS. Hence why MS in court has said that they cant take IE out because it IS THE OS. Which is bull but there claim.

Visual Basic is a bloated enviornment and your calling things that are ALL ready loaded into memory. I suggest that you read a book on how to benchmark because you have no idea how to do so and get acurate information. Your also dismissing the fact of IE and its runtime componenets. Get rid of them. There are components loaded into mem to load faster. IE uses heavy resorces and mem its a FACT. You would know this if you had any understanding, I think you do but dont want to admit this. I could be wrong.

I applaud you and what your trying to do. This is how we all learn. But I do strongly suggest you do some research on what your doing because you will find out its incorrect. Your benchmarks, your statements in regards to IE at start up, how integrated it is in the OS and how many eliments it has built around it. ITs much more then just IE

The explorer.exe is part of IE look it up and you will see its a fact. Dont dismiss what I say with a hatefull remark. Just research it and learn the facts. Thats all I can say.

[VaxoP]

im back ladies!!

so far , i got like 20 posts saying idiot crap like i work for microsoft, and only 2 were able to argue with my statement (above) and both are incorrect.

One guy says "its impossible to close explorer.exe and load internet explorer!!" For you: hit ctrl alt delete. follow me so far? locate the list for "explorer.exe" - this may take a while but youll find it. click end process and then - theres only 2 buttons - one of them is ok. click that. follow me? now, click File> Run, and run iexplore.exe. VOILA!

AgEnTsMiTh came up with some "proof" that mozilla used less ram then ie. he then sent me a screenshot. i wnot post it, because it will make him look like an idiot. he had selected EXPLORER.EXE on the screenshot thinking that was iexplore.exe. conveniently, iexplore.exe's mem usage was out of the screenshot. I however proved above with 2 screenshots that mozilla clearly uses more ram than ie, as well as more cpu. agentsmith also says "Visual Basic is a bloated enviornment and your calling things that are ALL ready loaded into memory". Ooh.. hes right there! But it proves NOTHING. I loaded ie in visual basic, and i loaded mozilla (gecko) in the app and tested. hands down, ie loaded the page faster. both programs were already loaded in memory agentsmith, if anything igave mozilla an advantage because of the HUGE amount of time it takes to load.

There is very simply, NO REASON to use mozilla except if youre a microsoft hater. here, carefully laid out are all the arguements people have.

1) IE loads faster because it is tied with explorer.exe, which is loaded at startup.

Wrong! close explorer.exe and you can still open iexplore.exe (in under a second). restart your computer if u like, close down explorer.exe before it even loads to "allow iexplorer to get launched in memory" and you can still oepn internet explorer in under a second. Even if it is (which it isnt) loaded at startup (again which it isnt) then why argue that ie loads faster because its tied with the os? who cares????? it still loads faster!! you cant run either program without the os, so since the os is already there, why even say something like "ie only loads faster cause its tied with explorer.exe" - its not like u can "stop the os" or something. it all matters on which loads faster - teh winnar is ie

2) Mozilla loads pages faster

Wrong! Look at the tests - did 10 of them for each browser. all 20 tsets were taken when cache was cleared, to prevent any headstarts, and only the pure capabilities of each browser could be seen. Time for Mozilla: 4.206 seconds avg. Time for IE: 3.671 seconds.

3) Mozilla uses less ram

Wrong! look at the 2 screenshots. proof is right there. 3 pages weer loaded, neowin, download.com and google. screenshots were taking when download.com was in focus in the browser. http://members.shaw.ca/d2store/moz1.JPG and http://members.shaw.ca/d2store/moz2.JPG

4) Mozilla uses less cpu

Wrong! No it doesnt, test yourself, i couldnt take the screenshots fast enough and im not going to be bothered to to prove this fact either. mozilla: 37% cpu when loading the 3 pages. ie: 17%.

5) Oh oh yea?? Mozilla loads faster!!!

Wrong! Mozilla took 11.6 seconds to load on my computer, ie 0.6

6) You have a slow a$$ computer

Wrong! I dont call amd 1.2ghz w/ 448mb ram slow

7) Ooh ooh!! I can SKIN MOZILLA!! BEAT THAT !!

IE was designed to be extremely extremely flexible for programming - there are dozens of plugins available. if you like, you can download programs that contain ie but are skinnable (like neoplanet) for free

8) Mozilla has tabbed browsing!! And it blocks popups! WEE I WIN!

Download crazy browser if u want tabbed browsing with all of ies feature + dozens mroe (still loads faster/less ram then mozilla btw). You want to stop popups? Download a free popup blocker. add antoehr 600k to memory, which is really nothing. (still total ram will be much lower then mozillas)

9) Mozilla is standards compliant. KEKEKEK I WIN!!!!111

honestly, who cares. if ie can render a page correctly and mozilla cant, its mozilla which needs to be changed, not ie

come now ladies, if you were at least argueing for a decent browser like opera id have much much less to say to you. opera kicks as$ - but ie still kicks operas as$. but opera is much muchbetter then mozilla. have you noticed something? The 2 best browsers are non open-source, while the worst is.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

I applaud you and what your trying to do. This is how we all learn. But I do strongly suggest you do some research on what your doing because you will find out its incorrect. Your benchmarks, your statements in regards to IE at start up, how integrated it is in the OS and how many eliments it has built around it. ITs much more then just IE

The explorer.exe is part of IE look it up and you will see its a fact. Dont dismiss what I say with a hatefull remark. Just research it and learn the facts. Thats all I can say.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

And by the way. I would listen to your posts but the fact that your benchmarks are as inacturate and invalidated as it gets, I cannot nor can anyone else. Learn the correct way to benchmark there are many great books that can teach you how to do so. And anyone who knows anything will tell you that you cannot and will not get acurate readings using the most bloated enviornment VB to get a benchmark like this LOL. And how can you do so when IE is loaded at boot and your not doing the same with Moz. Get real please. DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!!!!!!!

[lazydesert]

Originally posted by VaxoP

blah

blah

blah

9) Mozilla is standards compliant. KEKEKEK I WIN!!!!111

honestly, who cares. if ie can render a page correctly and mozilla cant, its mozilla which needs to be changed, not ie

i SUPPOSE your reasons are valid, i dont know.. i dont care. but this one (#9) is crazy-talk. how can you be against setting programming standards ? have you ever coded programs or html ? have you ever tried to read other people's work ? the whole point of standards is for it to work in all browsers.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

That comment alone shows how uninformed of the facts he is. and how much about this subject he needs to learn.

[VaxoP]

agentsmith, how can explorer.exe be part of ie? it would make much more sense if u said ie is a part of explorer.exe. if explorer.exe is a part of ie, ie would be loaded at startup, which it isnt. you manually open ie. i just checked the dependencies of explorer and iexplore. explorer references to ie, ie does not reference explorer. then, it would be quite fair dont u agree that if i close explorer.exe before it even loads, that ie doesnt get a head start. well i did that, and guess what, iexplore still loads in a second or so. (this is after restarting, closing explorer.exe before it starts). but even if it was part of the os (which it isnt) who cares? point is it loads faster.

hold on ill do the ultimate test for u.. ill remove shdocvw.dll (ie core) and iexplore.exe from my hd (well back it up actually :) ) and restart my computer. i guarantee xp will still load, proving ie is not the os.

[Vidar]

Just a note from a VB lover...

Let's see... You loaded Internet Explorer (also known as iexplorer.exe) from Visual Basic 6.. wait. The first lesson in VB I was taught was creating my own webbrowser because IE is part of the OS and thus can call functions and services from memory because of this.

Then you loaded Mozilla into VB 6 and it crashed. Guess what. I loaded a bunch of other non-visual basic/non-C compiled programs and tried to read them in the VB 6 enviroment and in the Interdev enviroment and guess what -- they crashed.

If you want more proof that IE is part of the OS, go check out the current drama of the DOJ trial. The whole point was people COULDN'T remove IE and outlook no matter how hard they tried, thus spawning the future release of Service Pack One for XP.

Back to the original topic: Why Mozilla is Great! Not "Why Microsoft should be given sexual favors cause we love it"..

Mozilla is great *because* of the W3C standards. Just as much as your printer/usb/firewire/etc port is great only because of the IEEE standards. Anyone remember Winchester harddrives? Buahahaha!

Standards = Guidelines for progress. Just because some 5yr old learned basic HTML doesn't mean he's a web designer/developer. It means he learned the basics and needs to polish his/her skills. OPaul's web page is a perfect example. He learned CSS but forgot how to implement them. You have to let the browser know what is to be changed. The browser, if it doesn't have this information supplied, actually reverts to your default settings -- which for IE is Times New Roman 10pt. Konquer and Netscape I believe in Linux are Helvetica 12pt... So yeah, if you are used to seeing the page in Times New Roman/Tahoma 10pt/9pt and change browsers, of course its not going to "display correctly". Cause its not "dislaying correctly" on any browser.

Sloppy code is like sloppy sex, it gets the job done but its hell of lot better when done correctly.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

Im done with this subject with you. You have NO IDEA with what your talking about. IE is one of the core eliments built into the OS. you would know this if you had any clue.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

Originally posted by Vidar

Just a note from a VB lover...

Let's see... You loaded Internet Explorer (also known as iexplorer.exe) from Visual Basic 6.. wait. The first lesson in VB I was taught was creating my own webbrowser because IE is part of the OS and thus can call functions and services from memory because of this.

Then you loaded Mozilla into VB 6 and it crashed. Guess what. I loaded a bunch of other non-visual basic/non-C compiled programs and tried to read them in the VB 6 enviroment and in the Interdev enviroment and guess what -- they crashed.

If you want more proof that IE is part of the OS, go check out the current drama of the DOJ trial. The whole point was people COULDN'T remove IE and outlook no matter how hard they tried, thus spawning the future release of Service Pack One for XP.

Back to the original topic: Why Mozilla is Great! Not "Why Microsoft should be given sexual favors cause we love it"..

Mozilla is great *because* of the W3C standards. Just as much as your printer/usb/firewire/etc port is great only because of the IEEE standards. Anyone remember Winchester harddrives? Buahahaha!

Standards = Guidelines for progress. Just because some 5yr old learned basic HTML doesn't mean he's a web designer/developer. It means he learned the basics and needs to polish his/her skills. OPaul's web page is a perfect example. He learned CSS but forgot how to implement them. You have to let the browser know what is to be changed. The browser, if it doesn't have this information supplied, actually reverts to your default settings -- which for IE is Times New Roman 10pt. Konquer and Netscape I believe in Linux are Helvetica 12pt... So yeah, if you are used to seeing the page in Times New Roman/Tahoma 10pt/9pt and change browsers, of course its not going to "display correctly". Cause its not "dislaying correctly" on any browser.

Sloppy code is like sloppy sex, it gets the job done but its hell of lot better when done correctly.

THANK YOU!!!

You are 100% correct and he choses to ignore all my statements on these facts trying to support his invalid and incorrect claims and proof. Like I said, I applaud what he is trying to do but to have credibility YOU MUST learn how to 1. do it correctly and 2. Learn the basic facts of IE.

All you have proven here today is how much info you need to learn about.

[BroChaos Veteran]

lol, it's sorta funny when someone doesn't even realize how wrong they are, and they keep going.

don't forget, he also had no clue about xhtml, and his websites don't validate, so his opinion pretty much carries no weight.

[Vidar]

Yeah, but I wanted to say the words "sloppy sex" in the forums and actually be making a point. :evil:

[AgEnTsMiTh]

Originally posted by Vidar

Yeah, but I wanted to say the words "sloppy sex" in the forums and actually be making a point. :evil:

LOL it was a great point and you stated what I was trying to inform him of much better then I did.:p

[Prasanth]

Originally posted by parrots

Yeah, they don't, and its a shame. And they don't care simply because they are too lazy to read the specs and code right, not because the specs aren't good. W3C has great specs and its a shame people don't follow them.

One day the Web will be like there is now...full of standards that people follow. Just like Samsung can't make RAM that breaks the standards that a motherboard is built around and still be bought, one day Web sites will comply to the same standards.

yep one day the web will be like that but now the web is not like that. An average internet user don't have to worry about these. IE renders them correctly, so he would use IE. Mozilla is a perfect browser and is standard compliant but IE is more than perfect.

Standards = Guidelines for progress. Just because some 5yr old learned basic HTML doesn't mean he's a web designer/developer. It means he learned the basics and needs to polish his/her skills. OPaul's web page is a perfect example. He learned CSS but forgot how to implement them. You have to let the browser know what is to be changed. The browser, if it doesn't have this information supplied, actually reverts to your default settings -- which for IE is Times New Roman 10pt. Konquer and Netscape I believe in Linux are Helvetica 12pt... So yeah, if you are used to seeing the page in Times New Roman/Tahoma 10pt/9pt and change browsers, of course its not going to "display correctly". Cause its not "dislaying correctly" on any browser.

If I code a non standard compliant webpage most of the poeple browsing the web can view them correctly because most of them are using IE. then who cares about standards.

[VaxoP]

Originally posted by Vidar

Just a note from a VB lover...

Let's see... You loaded Internet Explorer (also known as iexplorer.exe) from Visual Basic 6.. wait. The first lesson in VB I was taught was creating my own webbrowser because IE is part of the OS and thus can call functions and services from memory because of this.

Then you loaded Mozilla into VB 6 and it crashed. Guess what. I loaded a bunch of other non-visual basic/non-C compiled programs and tried to read them in the VB 6 enviroment and in the Interdev enviroment and guess what -- they crashed.

If you want more proof that IE is part of the OS, go check out the current drama of the DOJ trial. The whole point was people COULDN'T remove IE and outlook no matter how hard they tried, thus spawning the future release of Service Pack One for XP.

Back to the original topic: Why Mozilla is Great! Not "Why Microsoft should be given sexual favors cause we love it"..

Mozilla is great *because* of the W3C standards. Just as much as your printer/usb/firewire/etc port is great only because of the IEEE standards. Anyone remember Winchester harddrives? Buahahaha!

Standards = Guidelines for progress. Just because some 5yr old learned basic HTML doesn't mean he's a web designer/developer. It means he learned the basics and needs to polish his/her skills. OPaul's web page is a perfect example. He learned CSS but forgot how to implement them. You have to let the browser know what is to be changed. The browser, if it doesn't have this information supplied, actually reverts to your default settings -- which for IE is Times New Roman 10pt. Konquer and Netscape I believe in Linux are Helvetica 12pt... So yeah, if you are used to seeing the page in Times New Roman/Tahoma 10pt/9pt and change browsers, of course its not going to "display correctly". Cause its not "dislaying correctly" on any browser.

Sloppy code is like sloppy sex, it gets the job done but its hell of lot better when done correctly.

I will admit one thing now..

i guess yes iexplore is loaded with windows. tried removing it and restarting, but xp put it back. but.. the point still remains that ie loads faster. who cares if its with the os, the point is it starts faster (btw i loaded the ghey mozilla thing in the taskbar which is really no different from loading ie in the tray but ie still loaded faster).

Now Vidar, time to teach u some stuff about vb. first, go to mozilla.org. look through it and after a half hour of searching you should be able to find the instructions and the latest build of the embedding engine (which is based on the latest build of mozilla). now embed that. it crashed for me the first time, worked the second.

now, the benchmark was not to tset how long the apps took to load, it was to test how long it took for a page to be rendered.

here is the code for you:

<pre>[color="#0000A0"]Private[/color] x [color="#0000A0"]As[/color] [color="#0000A0"]Long[/color]

[color="#0000A0"]Private[/color] [color="#0000A0"]Sub[/color] cmdStart_Click()

x = 0

WB.Navigate "http://www.download.com"

Timer1.Enabled = [color="#0000A0"]True[/color]

[color="#0000A0"]Do[/color] : DoEvents : [color="#0000A0"]Loop[/color] [color="#0000A0"]Until[/color] WB.Busy = [color="#0000A0"]False[/color]

Timer1.Enabled = [color="#0000A0"]False[/color]

MsgBox x

[color="#0000A0"]End[/color] [color="#0000A0"]Sub[/color]

[color="#0000A0"]Private[/color] [color="#0000A0"]Sub[/color] Timer1_Timer()

x = x + 1

[color="#0000A0"]End[/color] [color="#0000A0"]Sub[/color]</pre>

WB is the webbrowser, either mozilla or ie.

that was the benchmark i used, its completely fair. both browsers were allowed to completely load before i clicked start.

[BroChaos Veteran]

IE is not more than perfect. it was their stupid deviations from the standards, in a dirty attempt to get more people to use their browser, that started this whole incompatibility thing in the first place.

[giantsnyy2002]

i dont get it though... IE for macintosh follows the standards, yet IE for windows does not. Is the IE MAC team smarter than the IE windows team?

Scratch that, im wrong, i had a fried compare the two (mozilla and ie for x) and mozilla displayed correctly. Next time i should read the facts

I appear to be wrong... He was using mozilla on X and IE for windows... what an idiot... 2>

[lazydesert]

Originally posted by prasanth

yep one day the web will be like that but now the web is not like that. An average internet user don't have to worry about these. IE renders them correctly, so he would use IE. Mozilla is a perfect browser and is standard compliant but IE is more than perfect.

If I code a non standard compliant webpage most of the poeple browsing the web can view them correctly because most of them are using IE. then who cares about standards.

the average internet user never sees the code, anyway. i fail to see your point.

[BroChaos Veteran]

Originally posted by VaxoP

I will admit one thing now..

i guess yes iexplore is loaded with windows. tried removing it and restarting, but xp put it back. but.. the point still remains that ie loads faster. who cares if its with the os, the point is it starts faster (btw i loaded the ghey mozilla thing in the taskbar which is really no different from loading ie in the tray but ie still loaded faster).

you know whats funny, is that for me, and for several other people, moz loads in 1-2 seconds, just like IE. that 11 seconds thing is a little ridiculous.

[BroChaos Veteran]

Originally posted by giantsnyy2002

i dont get it though... IE for macintosh follows the standards, yet IE for windows does not. Is the IE MAC team smarter than the IE windows team?

yeah, i would guess so. the office v.X team is a different team. and office for mac kicks office for xp's arse.

[VaxoP]

Originally posted by prasanth

yep one day the web will be like that but now the web is not like that. An average internet user don't have to worry about these. IE renders them correctly, so he would use IE. Mozilla is a perfect browser and is standard compliant but IE is more than perfect.

If I code a non standard compliant webpage most of the poeple browsing the web can view them correctly because most of them are using IE. then who cares about standards.

Oh thank god!! Someone with a working brain finally posted.

the fact is, almost ALL of the best webpage creators (including dreamweaver) will sometimes not create html that works in mozilla. but ie still loads it fine. what does that mean? ie is bad for loading it or mozilla is bad for not loading it? its not hard to realize that if mozilla cant load it, IT is the inferior program.

also guess what, some people dont have time to imagine how a webpage will look by codnig html in notepad. they are good designers and would rather design the webpage with dreamweaver. dont blame them for making awesome pages that work in ie and dont in mozilla.. blame mozilla.

and yes w3c invented the www. (i think??). so they get to decide standards? wutzhisname invented the telephone - was he making standards for it? IE has 98% of the market share. if it can display a page properly, so should its competitors if they want to become better than ie. IE decides these "standards" - though it isnt official, it sure is the case.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

Browser Load speeds.. as far as surfing the web is concerned, Mozilla loads pages faster then IE does for proof on this, simply do a google search on this. Microsoft themselves have done benchmarks and in leaked emails stated that they needed to improve there performance of web caching and loading. So, I guess by all your statements that you know more then MS?

I also do not appreciate your immature attitide and attacks twards the facts we know, and the facts you dismiss trying to support yourslef in order to refrain from looking like you know nothing, which is obviously too late.

Fact and point of this whole issue is that you have made many unvalitated comments and have shown how little you know about this discussion you have taken part in. I would hope above all that mabey you will later take the time out to research and learn the facts about this and walk away knowing more then you thought you did.

[Prasanth]

Originally posted by BroChaos

IE is not more than perfect. it was their stupid deviations from the standards, in a dirty attempt to get more people to use their browser, that started this whole incompatibility thing in the first place.

Who cares about microsoft's stupid deveations from standards.All i have to care about is does the page view correctly.the answer is no so i will use IE. I will use mozila when the internet is full of standard compliant webpages.