Upgrade version: bad news

By Andy1369
in The Fast Ring (Insider Previews)

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Veteran

y_notm

Posted
Posted

This really is a non-issue. As has been said many times, all versions of Vista are included on the DVD, including Full Retail and Upgrade. So you'll be able to boot from the CD no matter what. If for some reason Microsoft doesn't allow you to use your upgrade key during a clean install (which doesn't make sense - they will, but if they didn't) just don't input a key, choose the correct version of Vista, and let it install.

After installation is complete, input you upgrade key and activate windows. Bam, no mess, little fuss.

Rising Star

Morpheus Phreak

Posted
Posted
This really is a non-issue. As has been said many times, all versions of Vista are included on the DVD, including Full Retail and Upgrade. So you'll be able to boot from the CD no matter what. If for some reason Microsoft doesn't allow you to use your upgrade key during a clean install (which doesn't make sense - they will, but if they didn't) just don't input a key, choose the correct version of Vista, and let it install.

After installation is complete, input you upgrade key and activate windows. Bam, no mess, little fuss.

Won't work.

When you install Vista it does a license verification to make sure that the key you are using is being used properly. So you can't just toss in the key during an install or after a clean install using the activation wizard.

The only way to get it to work is through XP. You have to have XP installed and then when setup runs enter the key as it's going to check the XP license to make sure it's valid. It's all controlled by product key based locks.

Veteran

y_notm

Posted
Posted

Won't work.

When you install Vista it does a license verification to make sure that the key you are using is being used properly. So you can't just toss in the key during an install or after a clean install using the activation wizard.

The only way to get it to work is through XP. You have to have XP installed and then when setup runs enter the key as it's going to check the XP license to make sure it's valid. It's all controlled by product key based locks.

Right. And if you don't enter a key during setup, there's no way this product key lock can kick in. Once Vista's installed, it doesn't care if your Key is OEM, upgrade, or whatever as long as its valid.

Apprentice

quantumboredom

Posted
Posted

Right. And if you don't enter a key during setup, there's no way this product key lock can kick in. Once Vista's installed, it doesn't care if your Key is OEM, upgrade, or whatever as long as its valid.

Are you absolutely sure? Is there some reason why the activation wizard in Vista can't exclude all upgrade keys? The email from MS certainly seems to indicate that this must be the case (either that, or the upgrade DVDs are not the same as the retail DVDs). If you could do as you suggest, then the information given by MS in that email is simply untrue.

Also, am I eligible for an upgrade from XP OEM, or XP x64 OEM? If so, then it would be kind of problematic if you have to activate the XP install before upgrading to Vista, since the OEM version of XP should not be activated on a new PC, while I am assuming that the upgrade version of Vista has just as liberal a license as the retail version? Hope someone can be bothered to clarify this for me :)

Rising Star

Morpheus Phreak

Posted
Posted
I'm still thinking that people is discussing this without a real confirmation. Something like this would mean changing the license terms of the upgrade versions of vista. When are those EULA's coming??

What do you mean when is the EULA coming? The EULA is already in Vista during setup :blink:

Also y_notm, you have no idea about what Product Keys are do you?

They are just that, KEYS

Each key can only perform a certain task.

Why do you think you can't install an unmodified retail XP CD with a Corporate Key and have it work?

Because in that case, the key doesn't fit the lock ;)

Why do you think you can't install an unmodified retail XP CD with an Upgrade Key and have it work?

Once again, the key doesn't fit the lock

Let me give you a good explanation here. That key when entered determines what type of product you are going to be installing/activating.

If you skip the key then the key that it chooses to use is a Retail Evaluation Key. That gives you 30 days of functionality to get a good valid key going.

Now what happens when you go to activate that copy and it detects that you're using an upgrade key (and yes the keys are specific) without having done an validated upgrade?

You've guessed it. It will then ask you to verify your license which will require you to validate your previous license in which case without one you will be stuck.

Veteran

y_notm

Posted
Posted (edited)

Replies inline

What do you mean when is the EULA coming? The EULA is already in Vista during setup :blink:

Also y_notm, you have no idea about what Product Keys are do you?

They are just that, KEYS

Each key can only perform a certain task.

Why do you think you can't install an unmodified retail XP CD with a Corporate Key and have it work?

Because in that case, the key doesn't fit the lock ;)

That was the case with XP, but Vista is different. All versions are on one CD, so you can use any legit key on any Vista CD and it will automatically install the version that matches that key.

If you skip the key then the key that it chooses to use is a Retail Evaluation Key. That gives you 30 days of functionality to get a good valid key going.

Now what happens when you go to activate that copy and it detects that you're using an upgrade key (and yes the keys are specific) without having done an validated upgrade?

You've guessed it. It will then ask you to verify your license which will require you to validate your previous license in which case without one you will be stuck.

First part, true. Second part, I'm not so sure of. From what I know of activation (and maybe this changed with Vista, but this was the case with XP) the activation servers just check that the key itself is a valid Vista key and that its not currently activated on another computer, then says "OK you're activated." There is no check to validate you've done an upgrade. In other words, activation doesn't care how you get there as long as you have a valid key.

In XP's set up (again, going by this because we don't have Vista upgrade keys yet) you pop in the 2000 or whatever CD during the clean install and it verifies you have the media, it doesn't connect to the internet to tell MS you indeed have a qualifying previous version and it doesn't flag your installation in any way, it just allows installation to continue. At the end of the install, your clean install with an upgrade disk looks exactly like a clean install with a full version disk. Therefore, whether you clean installed or upgraded has no impact on Activation.

Also, the privacy policy says nothing about sending upgrade version status to Microsoft during Activation, only the key, IP address, and hardware hash.

Edited by y_notm
Rising Star

Morpheus Phreak

Posted
Posted
Replies inline

That was the case with XP, but Vista is different. All versions are on one CD, so you can use any legit key on any Vista CD and it will automatically install the version that matches that key.

First part, true. Second part, I'm not so sure of. From what I know of activation (and maybe this changed with Vista, but this was the case with XP) the activation servers just check that the key itself is a valid Vista key and that its not currently activated on another computer, then says "OK you're activated." There is no check to validate you've done an upgrade. In other words, activation doesn't care how you get there as long as you have a valid key.

In XP's set up (again, going by this because we don't have Vista upgrade keys yet) you pop in the 2000 or whatever CD during the clean install and it verifies you have the media, it doesn't connect to the internet to tell MS you indeed have a qualifying previous version and it doesn't flag your installation in any way, it just allows installation to continue. At the end of the install, your clean install with an upgrade disk looks exactly like a clean install with a full version disk. Therefore, whether you clean installed or upgraded has no impact on Activation.

Also, the privacy policy says nothing about sending upgrade version status to Microsoft during Activation, only the key, IP address, and hardware hash.

Once again y_notm you're not listening.

When you try to install Vista it detects what key you are using and then determines what you can or cannot do.

If you boot the system and try a clean install using the upgrade key it will tell you that you cannot continue.

I've already said all I have to say on this subject and this is my last post on it as I will not waste my time further arguing a point on which I know I am correct.

Veteran

y_notm

Posted
Posted (edited)

But you're not correct because you never read my first post complete: You don't need to provide a key for Windows Vista to complete installation. It can be provided after installation. You simply choose which version you want to install in that case.

This isn't something new and mindblowing, and its still present in RTM. In fact, thats how MS advised testers to install RTM - they provided the CD image almost 2 full weeks before keys were sent out.

If for some reason you need more proof of this, here's a couple of screens.

post-821-1166303204_thumb.jpg

post-821-1166303302_thumb.jpg

Edited by y_notm
  • 3 weeks later...
Rising Star

Morpheus Phreak

Posted
Posted (edited)
But you're not correct because you never read my first post complete: You don't need to provide a key for Windows Vista to complete installation. It can be provided after installation. You simply choose which version you want to install in that case.

This isn't something new and mindblowing, and its still present in RTM. In fact, thats how MS advised testers to install RTM - they provided the CD image almost 2 full weeks before keys were sent out.

If for some reason you need more proof of this, here's a couple of screens.

Read my prior posts and you will see that I did actually read yours fully.

I understand what you are saying but you're still not getting it. YOU DO NEED TO PROVIDE A KEY. Even if you don't enter one there is a default key that Vista already has included in it's code that allows the installer to continue. If you don't believe me check with any software you want that can give you your product key and you will see that I am correct.

That default key allows for an install, but not for activation. When you then attempt to activate it will tell you that you need to enter a new key. Once you enter in that key the server will reject it because it is an upgrade key and is not being used in an upgrade scenario.

It can tell from the default install key that you did a clean install first and that the key that you are attempting to use is not valid for the purpose which you are attempting to use it for and will reject it.

You can argue with me all you want, but the fact of the matter is I'm right, you're not.

I mean come on the proof is right in your second screen shot.

"If you choose not to enter the product key now, you might need to reinstall Windows later and potentially lose data, information, and programs, or you might need to pu rchase another edition of Windows Vista."

Now let's read that logically.

If you do not enter the product key, you might have to reinstall and lose things if you run out of time before you enter the new key, OR if the keys is not for the version you are installing.

If you chose a full VERSION, note that, VERSION, install then the upgrade VERSION key WILL not activate it as it uses slightly different PID bits.

I mean come on what kind of morons do you take MS for?

  • 4 weeks later...
Grand Master

Julius Caro

Posted
Posted
Hello, Here is an update on your inquiry about Windows Vista Ultimate. Please accept our apologies for the delay in our response. WinSAT is available in all editions of Windows Vista. It is true that the upgrade to Windows Vista can only be run from inside Windows XP. The Windows Vista product group has also provided the following information about how this works. a. Recovery on a true bare metal system (formatted disk, no system installed) requires a PSS call, there is no way to use retail media on a boot from media install. PSS has the infrastructure to help customers in this case. b. If you want to install from retail media without a PSS call, yes you?ll have to reinstall Windows XP, then upgrade to Windows Vista. c. In the case where setup fails we have implemented rollback, something we didn?t have for Windows XP - a failed upgrade will simply return the machine back to Windows XP.If you choose to clean install from Windows XP, with a failure, the OS will also roll back. e. Windows Vista never really ?Erases? Windows XP until you have successfully reached the new desktop. f. If you need the ability to clean instbare metal systemstems, you must buy the full product package, not the upgrade edition. Should you have other quiestions, please feel free to write back. Did I completely answer your question? Please let us know by replying to this message. Thank you

1. Clean installs from XP... POSSIBLE!

2. Clean installs with an UPGRADE key by booting the disc. NOT POSSIBLE.

Mentor

mattrobs

Posted
Posted
Windows Vista never really ?Erases? Windows XP until you have successfully reached the new desktop

I'd like to know what "erases" actually means. If I clean install from XP on the same partition, will any part of XP still be on the disk? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a 'clean' install?

Grand Master

spenser.d

Posted
Posted
Seems like a bit of a chore, but if you want to save money on the upgrade version you'll have to make sacrifices.

Only if you're a builder. And then the only sacrifice is the extra half hour it takes to install XP first, and then move on to installing Vista.

For most of the mass market, they won't ever format their HDD after an initial clean install (if they even choose a clean install) - they'll be perfectly fine just purchasing an upgrade edition and putting the CD into their machine that already has XP installed on it, and they won't have any problems.

-Spenser

Grand Master

theyarecomingforyou

Posted
Posted
Only if you're a builder. And then the only sacrifice is the extra half hour it takes to install XP first, and then move on to installing Vista.

Half an hour? It takes longer than that, plus you have to be present several times during the install; then you need to activate it. That is a real inconvenience, particularly if doing it more than once.

Mentor

Vidar

Posted
Posted
Half an hour? It takes longer than that, plus you have to be present several times during the install; then you need to activate it. That is a real inconvenience, particularly if doing it more than once.

Eh, half hour tops. Most of the updates can be slipstreamed into XP prior to installation (Most system builders do this for normal XP installs, the now 6 .NET installs/upgrades are the only hassle), the only "hands on" moments are the CD key for XP, then the activation (which if you slipstreamed the drivers for the most popular NICs, no biggy) which is done directly after/during install.

Granted it slows down production time ALOT. But then, that's what you get for being cheap and only buying an upgrade *shrugs*

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