Confused about Israel

[whitebread]

So I have seen a lot of literature commenting on the rift between Israel and Palestine. Why is there such animosity? Why the hatred of the Jews by the Muslims? I'll admit I'm rather ignorant of the history of that part of the world, but I get the impression from what I have read the Palestinians feel they own the land on which Israel exists (and, as I gather, is primarily Jewish).

Please note that I am not trying to establish "who is right." I am merely looking to understand both sides of the situation.

[valhalla_rk]

you are running straight into a minefield... you will not have a peaceful debate.

But i must say one thing, this land had so many owners during the years, that no one can really tell you who is the "real" owner of this land is.

but, most of the land is now jewish, jews will never leave once again like they forced to do in the past. we are here, and we are here to stay forever, in freedom and with only Israelis controlling Israelis and nothing more.

[whitebread]

I realize Israel is mostly Jewish, but why the controversy? Did the Jews invade territory previously held by Muslims? Were they ceded the land under some sort of pact?

[El Bourricot]

I realize Israel is mostly Jewish, but why the controversy? Did the Jews invade territory previously held by Muslims? Were they ceded the land under some sort of pact?

The animosity (although not many people realize this nowadays) comes mainly from the Soviet Block stirring anti-Israeli feelings within Arab countries during the middle of last century to create an effective anti-US (as Israel was and still is a close US ally) block within the UN. This had the advantage of providing dictators with a scapegoat to blame ****ty living conditions on. Very popular it was, this tactic.

[valhalla_rk]

Israel is mostly jewish with a minority of palestinians citizens called here "israeli-arab".

why the controversy? the arab just don't want a jewish state in this "muslim" region.

the Jewish people started come back here buy buying lands from arabs, until the war of 48, after (and mostly before) that the books of history will tell you more things i wrote here before, and things that i'm too tired to write ATM... (tomorrow i have a test in Binary Communication systems, so i beg your pardon... :p)

[whitebread]

Wow. So the whole reason there is conflict is because the Muslims resent the Jews for "intruding" on "their" territory?

:laugh:

I really hope there is more to it than that. Unfortunately, I seem to have a special talent for ****ing off the religious folk (esecially tmahmood :shifty:), so I doubt any of them will even bother opening this thread when they see I started it..... A pity.

[Starcom826]

Wow. So the whole reason there is conflict is because the Muslims resent the Jews for "intruding" on "their" territory?

:laugh:

I really hope there is more to it than that. Unfortunately, I seem to have a special talent for ****ing off the religious folk (esecially tmahmood :shifty:), so I doubt any of them will even bother opening this thread when they see I started it..... A pity.

It's been like that for quite a while. There's a reason why it's Islam vs. the Israel (and consequently the U.S.). They band together and view everything as an attack on their religion down there.

[whitebread]

It's been like that for quite a while. There's a reason why it's Islam vs. the Israel (and consequently the U.S.). They band together and view everything as an attack on their religion down there.

Pathetic.... But it does raise an interesting question. If they have problems with another religion "disrupting" "their" lands, why do they think it is OK to force their way of life on everyone else?

:no:

[guru]

The animosity (although not many people realize this nowadays) comes mainly from the Soviet Block stirring anti-Israeli feelings within Arab countries during the middle of last century to create an effective anti-US (as Israel was and still is a close US ally) block within the UN. This had the advantage of providing dictators with a scapegoat to blame ****ty living conditions on. Very popular it was, this tactic.

nice theory.. why then were ALL ME nations [-Iran and Syria] were allies with US during cold war?

[Boffa Jones Veteran]

The Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel was publicly read in Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948, before the expiration of the British Mandate of Palestine at midnight. It was drafted during the preceding months, and the final version was a result of a compromise between the various parts of the Israeli public of that time. On May 14, 1948, the Vaad Leumi (Jewish National Council) gathered at the first site of the Tel Aviv Museum of Art - a site today called "Independence Hall", and approved the proclamation.

Iceland played an important role in the establishment of the State of Israel, as Ambassador Thor Thors tabled the historical resolution of the establishment of the State of Israel on November 29, 1947 at the United Nations General Assembly, and thereby paved the way for the proclamation of Israel?s independence on May 15, 1948. (Mr Peter Gad Naschitz, Honorary Consul General of Iceland 2006)

However, "On May 12, the Jewish national administration was convened in order to decide whether to accept the American proposal for a truce or to declare the new state. A vote was taken and the decision to declare independence forthwith was supported by six of the ten voting members." (pages 5 & 7 of "The Evolution of the Israeli-Egyptian Rivalry, 1948-1979" by Professor of Political Science Dr. Zeev Maoz of Tel-Aviv University [1]).

The new state and its government was recognized de facto minutes later by the United States and three days later de jure by the Soviet Union (Stalin thought a communist or communist-oriented Jewish state could be a useful "thorn in the back" of his capitalist rivals in the Middle East). It was however opposed by many others, particularly Arabs (both the surrounding Arab states and the Palestinian Arabs), who felt it was being established at their expense.

The declaration is written in a style reminiscent of UN resolutions, beginning with preambulatory sentences explaining the causes for the declaration and the right of Jews to an independent country, and then operative sentences detailing the attributes of the forthcoming State of Israel.

The Palestinians hate the Jews for the same reason that the French hated the Jews through the 19th century and before, most notably during the Dreyfus Affair. They hate them for the same reasons the russians hated them, the english hated them and the germans hated them. The Jews live on what they beleive is their land, due to their roots in the land and their families having lived their for thousands of years. Now the land is being lived on by the Jewish people. The Europeans used the Jews a scapegoat as the landless people who are taking their jobs and not assimilating etc.

The only difference, is that the Jews actually have some historical claim to the land as well. Unfortunately over the years many people not originally from palestine have moved there and agitate. Not only that, the war that closely followed the creation of Israel and the land gained by Israel over the years is a hot button issue.

The thing that is somewhat sad, is that I beleive there would still be a good amount of anti-semitism in the world if not for WW2 and britain and the UN giving the Jews land that they were about to lose.

Pathetic.... But it does raise an interesting question. If they have problems with another religion "disrupting" "their" lands, why do they think it is OK to force their way of life on everyone else?

It is not so much another religion but another Nation.

[guru]

Pathetic.... But it does raise an interesting question. If they have problems with another religion "disrupting" "their" lands, why do they think it is OK to force their way of life on everyone else?

:no:

The common subtext with most conflicts today is close minded bigots saying "This Land belongs to this religion and nobody else". why? Its no longer religion in politics but politicized religion. In the case of Israel its Muslim land in the control of Jews. (Never mind the fact that that AlAqsa was built on Jewish Temple mount). Pre Islamic Revolution Iran was Israel's friend in ME now its Iran is Israel's arch enemy. what changed? Islam was invoked in a political/ethnic conflict between Arabs and Jews.

Thats why Muslims from Indonesia to Pakistan to Egypt hate Israel (Israel btw doesn't have anything to do with most of them for ex: Pakistan).

[curme]

Let me add that there are no good guys in this conflict. Both have valid claims, both have murdered and tortured and generally been jerks to try to sort out those claims. Violence is never a means to reslove issues, unfortunately both sides have spiraled into a dialog where violence is the only conversation.

[whitebread]

Let me add that there are no good guys in this conflict. Both have valid claims, both have murdered and tortured and generally been jerks to try to sort out those claims. Violence is never a means to reslove issues, unfortunately both sides have spiraled into a dialog where violence is the only conversation.

Correct me if I am wrng, but the Jews controlled what is now Israel until the Muslims captured it. It was restored to Christian rule during the Crusades, but was taken back by the Muslims. IMO, assuming that grossly-simplified history is correct, wouldn't that give the Jews the rights to the land in the same way that Native Canadians (and Americans, I suppose) now have land claims that give them default right to the land?

[curme]

Correct me if I am wrng, but the Jews controlled what is now Israel until the Muslims captured it. It was restored to Christian rule during the Crusades, but was taken back by the Muslims. IMO, assuming that grossly-simplified history is correct, wouldn't that give the Jews the rights to the land in the same way that Native Canadians (and Americans, I suppose) now have land claims that give them default right to the land?

Are you saying that the Jews in Israel are like the Native Americans in the USA or the aborigines in Australia? Or is it more like when the Normans or Saxons invaded England?

[whitebread]

Are you saying that the Jews in Israel are like the Native Americans in the USA or the aborigines in Australia?

In 2 respects, yes:

• They have prior land claims to the area (probably the first and most legitimate land claim)
  
• They have been unjustly discriminated against, and continue to be persecuted
  

[tmahmood]

Should I get ****ed off by the peoples who simply don't know what they are saying or don't have the balls to accept that they're wrong? ... Nope..

let me make it dumb down for you?

Your living in your house that belongs to you and your family for 100 years. Suddenly one day someone from nowhere comes to your house with a claim that your house belongs to him and his ancestors were living there 101 years ago and the house still belongs to him as his religious book says so. Then he throws you and your family out, with the help of the big brother with big guns, make you work for him, torturing you and your family members and kills some with some lame reasons... and so on... and as a added bonus when you try to protest they declare you as terrorist and keeps on killing your family member.

Now tell me how would you feel?

They have prior land claims to the area (probably the first and most legitimate land claim)

So you are agreeing that current US citizens should give Native American's land back and get off from there?

They have been unjustly discriminated against, and continue to be persecuted

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha oh god!!

[whitebread]

Should I get ****ed off by the peoples who simply don't know what they are saying or don't have the balls to accept that they're wrong? ... Nope..

I am not looking to **** you off. I'm looking to get the "other" side of the situation. I appreciate your post.

let me make it dumb down for you?

Your living in your house that belongs to you and your family for 100 years. Suddenly one day someone from nowhere comes to your house with a claim that your house belongs to him and his ancestors were living there 101 years ago and the house still belongs to him as his religious book says so. Then he throws you and your family out, with the help of the big brother with big guns, make you work for him, torturing you and your family members and kills some with some lame reasons... and so on...

Now tell me how would you feel?

Well, I think this is legitimately different. As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong), the Jews lived their originally and were displaced by the Muslims. Thus, an attempt to reclaim land they have a legitimate claim to (and not just in their religious book, as that argument could presumably be made by all sects of Judaism/Christianity/Islam would have some genuine credibility. Yes, that was hundreds/thousands years ago, but it is still the ancestral home to the Jews.

So you are agreeing that current US citizens(probably you too) should give Native American's land back and get off from there?

I think that they may have a claim, yes. And the Canadian courts have agreed in many cases. The government, to an extent, agrees as well; for example, the Caledonia standoff.

As for your response to my assertion that the Jews have been discriminated against, I wasn't clear in my point. I was trying to refer to throughout history (right from the Old Testament through to the Holocaust, and beyond). I was not trying to comment on any specific situation.

All that being said, I am not (as stated in my original post) looking to get into an argument about who is right and wrong. I really just want an explanation regarding both sides of the conflict. I would ask that you restrain your comments and posts to explanation rather than trying to incite an argument.

Thank you.

[TokyoKiller]

If I recall last years history class, the jews have been in and out from that land for several times under the Ancient Egyptians, Babylonians and during the Crusade.

Everyone needs to know that land is holy to all three religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Palestinians and Jews have lived there for a quiet a long time before the formation of the state of Israel. The goal in the creation of the state of Israel was to move all the jews from Europe (primarily Britain) to the "Promised Land".

Since Britain was in control of that land after WW2, and the fact that this land was "promised" to the jews as their book claims the British saw it as a perfect opportunity to move the Jews. As I said before the Jews and Palestinians were living with little problems before the formation of Israel but as the creation of Israel became closer things got more violent between the two sides and till date its been the same.

Honestly, my point of view as a Kurd from Iraq who lived in the Middle East for a quiet sometime is that both sides need to learn how to share the land, and don't tell me the Palestinians blow themselves up. The only reason for that is because there is no other way to get the message to the other side (Israel) as there is no true army to defend them against strikes by Israel (Which most of the time hit civilian targets...). The point is split the land 50/50 and re-create borders for both territories so both can have waterway and land so neither side can feel "ripped off".

Anyone who says Israel has not violated many human rights is ignorant, the way Palestinians are treated is very inhumane and cruel. It is ironic how the Jews complain about how their history has always been them being taken advantage of and such...now they turned into what was their enemy once.

I don't like neither side and neither do I side with any side as I think this conflict is one of the most pointless conflicts on the planet, the excuses that Israel lays out for its actions are very unreasonable and the same thing goes for the Palestinians (Who of course are angered day by day for not having a proper passport to travel or any sort of ID to have an identity or belonging to a nation, yes if you don't know Palestine does NOT exist as a country thus the people living in it do not have passports or ID's recognized by nations outside the Middle East.)

Also, note that Israel is very excited with the current situation in Palestine. As the possibilities of a civil war could move attention from Israel to Palestinians vs. Palestinians meaning no attacks against Israel.

No offense to anyone, but I know lots of Palestinians and I have to admit many of them have extremist ideas of Islam and such, they even liked Saddam Hussein and mourned his death because he fired a couple of missiles at Israel back in the 80's and 90's.

[TokyoKiller]

I am not looking to **** you off. I'm looking to get the "other" side of the situation. I appreciate your post.

Well, I think this is legitimately different. As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong), the Jews lived their originally and were displaced by the Muslims. Thus, an attempt to reclaim land they have a legitimate claim to (and not just in their religious book, as that argument could presumably be made by all sects of Judaism/Christianity/Islam would have some genuine credibility. Yes, that was hundreds/thousands years ago, but it is still the ancestral home to the Jews.

I think that they may have a claim, yes. And the Canadian courts have agreed in many cases. The government, to an extent, agrees as well; for example, the Caledonia standoff.

As for your response to my assertion that the Jews have been discriminated against, I wasn't clear in my point. I was trying to refer to throughout history (right from the Old Testament through to the Holocaust, and beyond). I was not trying to comment on any specific situation.

All that being said, I am not (as stated in my original post) looking to get into an argument about who is right and wrong. I really just want an explanation regarding both sides of the conflict. I would ask that you restrain your comments and posts to explanation rather than trying to incite an argument.

Thank you.

most of the jews who are living currently in Israel are not in anyway FROM that land in terms of ethnic background and such, that is what you are missing. The jews who were living there have the right to that land just as much as the next muslim/palestinian guy, but most of the Jews living in Israel are from Europe who were European JEWS. What really ticks me off is that he jews like to think of themselves an ethnic group that belongs into one location, which is wrong since Judaism is a religion and religion is a belief and is not tied to a specific location although the concentration maybe high in some areas like Islam in Middle East and South East Asia and Africa. Christianity in NA/SA/AUS and EU. Get what I am saying?

[whitebread]

most of the jews who are living currently in Israel are not in anyway FROM that land in terms of ethnic background and such, that is what you are missing. The jews who were living there have the right to that land just as much as the next muslim/palestinian guy, but most of the Jews living in Israel are from Europe who were European JEWS. What really ticks me off is that he jews like to think of themselves an ethnic group that belongs into one location, which is wrong since Judaism is a religion and religion is a belief and is not tied to a specific location although the concentration maybe high in some areas like Islam in Middle East and South East Asia and Africa. Christianity in NA/SA/AUS and EU. Get what I am saying?

Ah. You do raise an excellent point. I can see how the Muslims living in the region would be upset with that.

[curme]

It's a complicated problem, which requires a complex solution. Unfortunately, the conflict is seen in most people's eyes as black and white, without the shades of grays. I guess it's easier to understand that way. There has to be a peaceful solution, but unfortunately I think it's about selfish power on both sides. Thinking about selfish power before peace is a major reason for discord in the world.

[tmahmood]

Well, I think this is legitimately different. As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong), the Jews lived their originally and were displaced by the Muslims. Thus, an attempt to reclaim land they have a legitimate claim to (and not just in their religious book, as that argument could presumably be made by all sects of Judaism/Christianity/Islam would have some genuine credibility. Yes, that was hundreds/thousands years ago, but it is still the ancestral home to the Jews.

um not much different then what happened/happening in the Middle East. And It was not only ancestral home for Jews but also for Muslims, Christians, It didn't belonged to any certain religion. And Jews, Muslim and Christians lived together there until British took over that place, and polarized them (as I see it was their habit).

Oh and go ahead to tell those Americans to leave the land that belongs to Native Indians and let us know their reaction...

@TheGriffin good point

While I feel this conflict needs to be stopped, I fear it would never be stopped as long as

1. Palestinians do not get their freedom and a strong economy that is not depended on and controlled by US and Israel.

2. US/Israel keeps on rejecting UN's resolutions

[Boffa Jones Veteran]

Correct me if I am wrng, but the Jews controlled what is now Israel until the Muslims captured it. It was restored to Christian rule during the Crusades, but was taken back by the Muslims. IMO, assuming that grossly-simplified history is correct, wouldn't that give the Jews the rights to the land in the same way that Native Canadians (and Americans, I suppose) now have land claims that give them default right to the land?

Keep in mind that the Crusaders were just as likely to kill the Jews, as at the time they considered them Christ killers. So it didn't 'return to Christian rule, it went from whoever was there way way way back, to Jewish, to Muslims to Christian, to Muslim to the current Jewish.

[Starcom826]

Oh and go ahead to tell those Americans to leave the land that belongs to Native Indians and let us know their reaction...

Exactly. The land no longer belongs to the Native Americans just as how the land Israel is on no longer belongs to the Palestinians.

[OPaul]

Wow. So the whole reason there is conflict is because the Muslims resent the Jews for "intruding" on "their" territory?

They did a little more then intrude...the Allies gave them portions of the land after the war and then they took the rest by force.