Speeding is safer

[Fred Derf Veteran]

So you're saying that extra tests, for people with skill, to drive faster is an option to consider?

We have some highways that are 16 lanes wide (and even more in temporary spots). I would be in favour of a test that allowed a driver to use these "400-series" highways.

The trouble is enforcement, however. There are enough people on the road with suspended or expired licenses as it is.

[Moustacha]

Campaign against speeding

For your benefit

Home > Safer People > Issues > Speed >

Campaign Background

Speed is one of the most important factors in road trauma and may contribute to as many as 50 per cent of crashes.

Internationally acknowledged research by the Centre for Automotive Safety Research (CASR), University of Adelaide, has shown the risk of crashing and the severity of a crash increases with increases in speed. At 65km/h, the risk of crashing is double the risk at 60km/h.

Even low-level speeding is risky and this can be exacerbated in poor driving conditions. This was emphasised by the television speed campaign run in 2004, featuring Professor Ian Johnston comparing two cars travelling at 60km/h and 65 km/h and their stopping distances.

Despite this, the link between speed and the risk of crashing and the severity of injury is not well understood by the community and needs to be a feature of speed communication campaigns.

Many motorists are not aware of the reaction distance and braking distance required when speeding. For example, when the reaction distance is added to the braking distance, at 100 km/h it requires 100 meters to stop in an emergency, whereas at 120 km/h, 130 meters are needed. Like wise, many motorists are not aware of impact speed and crash energy. This means that small differences in impact speed are associated with large differences in crash energy, and correspondingly large differences in the potential to be injured in a crash.

Research has repeatedly found that young drivers (aged 16-24), particularly males, are more likely to indulge in risk taking behaviour such as speeding. National statistics show that 28 per cent of sober young drivers involved in fatal crashes were speeding or driving too fast for the road conditions, compared with 10 per cent of sober drivers aged over 25. Other research shows nearly 1/3 of passenger fatalities in the 16 - 19 age bracket result from speeding. Motorcyclist fatalities are also commonly a result of inappropriate speed.

And an Australian racing legend killed by speed, Peter Brock. All the other race drivers and witnesses said he was going faster than the other rally drivers. If you don't believe me, wait for the police report. Shows that no matter who you are, and how skilled you think you are, speeding can still kill you.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Another high-speed disaster on the 400

Man killed in crash as debate renews on dangerous driving on highways

Jun 19, 2007 04:30 AM

Phinjo Gombu

Staff Reporter

In a crash eerily similar to one just 48 hours before, two young male drivers speeding on Highway 400 are facing serious charges in an accident that caused the death of a tanker truck driver.

The 11:30 a.m. incident in the northbound lanes of the highway near Bradford closed the highway in both directions all day.

It took place just 2 kilometres north of where a high-speed Saturday-night crash in the southbound lanes, also involving two young drivers, left 11 injured and closed the highway in both directions for 14 hours.

The strikingly similar incidents raise fresh questions about what might be done to discourage risky behaviour by young drivers and reduce the harm done, perhaps with better road engineering and technological advances.

The two male drivers, both in their early 20s, are from Mississauga and Etobicoke. One drove a black Mustang, the other a green Pontiac Grand Am, and were taking friends to Wasaga Beach on a break from final exams yesterday.

They face at least five charges each, including criminal negligence causing death, dangerous driving causing injury and bodily harm and dangerous driving by racing.

The 21-year-old male driver of a third car, a green Honda, was charged with dangerous driving. Police determined the Etobicoke man was not directly or indirectly involved in the collision and his car was some distance behind the other two when the collision occurred.

Police were withholding the name of the deceased truck driver, who was in his late 50s, until the next of kin had been notified.

The driver of a Jeep station wagon also involved in the accident was taken to hospital with minor injuries.

Several witnesses described the Mustang and Grand Am travelling at high speed and weaving in and out of lanes before the crash occurred, just south of Highway 89.

"One or more of the vehicles caused the truck driver to swerve, hitting the centre median and then careening across three lanes of traffic and into a ditch," an Ontario Provincial Police release said.

In Saturday night's crash, police laid charges of dangerous driving and criminal negligence against two drivers.

Technology could play a bigger role in discouraging the high speed involved in such events, according to road safety experts.

Sweden is already experimenting with speed limiters on car engines, said Kevin McClafferty, team manager at the University of Western Ontario Multidisciplinary Accident Research Team.

An advocate of photo radar, he also expects to see more data collected on the so-called black boxes that monitor car airbag systems.

"As that technology starts to be more widespread, maybe that will be a deterrent too. Then if (speeders) crash we're going to know how fast they were going," McClafferty said.

Newer highways, such as the 407 ETR,are designed with wide, open medians, rumble strips and wider paved shoulders. Rebuilding an older one like the 400, which dates to the 1950s, probably isn't feasible, he said. But the highway's engineering isn't the problem, said Brian Patterson, head of the Ontario Safety League and frequent 400 driver. He was skeptical of how much technology could do to reduce such incidents.

"Speed limiters will stop you speeding on the 400, but it won't stop you from driving like a bat out of hell in your own neighbourhood."

What's more, "photo radar lowers speed in its initial phases and it's an excellent safety tool for construction zones and high-risk areas, but you'd be hard-pressed to convince the public that it's not connected to a cash grab."

The drivers arrested yesterday were with friends from Toronto's Kipling Collegiate on their way to Wasaga Beach for the day, a passenger in one of the cars told the Star at the crash scene.

"We have exams (today) so we came out to chill," said Raj Chandpuri, 18, who was in the backseat of the Grand Am. A friend was one of those charged.

Chandpuri said he didn't know how the crash occurred because he was reading at the time.

Beside him was Tahir Khan, 19, who said he was trying to sleep; a third young male passenger said he'd been asleep also.

"We're feeling very bad," said Chandpuri. "We didn't realize this was going to happen ... It was an accident."

Two young women who were passengers in the Mustang said they didn't want to speak about what had happened.

Tina Hannahson, 37, of Mississauga, who was heading north in the centre lane of the highway yesterday, said the nightmare unfolded in front of her when at least three cars raced past her in the right lane.

Moments before, she had let the tanker ? which police said was empty ? merge in front of her from the left. "I got cut off by a Mustang," said Hannahson. "He went into the left lane and then he came around in front of the truck and cut the truck off."

On the opposite side of the highway, Jane Lennox, 40, was heading to Toronto with her 13-year-old daughter, Laura. She said she briefly stared death in the face when she saw the tanker come toward the guardrail and her vehicle.

The truck hit the guardrail and swerved back before ending up on its side in the ditch.

"I think he's a hero," Lennox said of the truck driver. "If he hadn't corrected himself, he would have hit us head-on and we would have been dead."

OPP Sgt. Cam Woolley agreed it was "probably driver action" that spared Lennox and others. Had the truck gone over into oncoming traffic, there would have been far worse carnagPolice, he said, will treat the investigation as if it were a homicide.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/226880

[russellc]

So you're one of those idiots. Nobody cares about your super amazing speeding skills. What a sad mentality you people place yourselves in when you think you're so right and the king of the road; unfortunately, the innocent drivers and pedestrians become the victims of your irresponsibility... not that you care.

[Nose Nuggets]

So you're one of those idiots. Nobody cares about your super amazing speeding skills. What a sad mentality you people place yourselves in when you think you're so right and the king of the road; unfortunately, the innocent drivers and pedestrians become the victims of your irresponsibility... not that you care.

its not nearly as cut and dry as that. most of the innocent drivers who miraculously get caught up in such accidents do far more incorrect then correct. and in all honesty its not really their fault, they are simply uneducated. if, by law, everyone was required to take a basic car control class and had to prove they could control a vehicle is less then optimal conditions (i.e. a slide or a spin) they they would receive there drivers license. but its not. any retard who can press peddles and rotate the wheel can drive on the street here in the states. your breeding failure into the system. most people think driving is a right not a privileged, and so many people do it so routinely that they give little thought to what is involved and most space out while driving.

i have been in COUNTLESS shady situations while driving down the freeway. people slamming on the brakes for small animals. one guy slowly drifting into another lane of traffic causes another car to freak the hell out and throw the car in the oposit direction. 9 times out of 10 when someone says "they cut me off" there is plenty of room. have you seen the amount of space most people think they need to parallel park? or how much extra room they leave while parking? its fantastic. hardly anyone spends the 5 minutes it takes to really learn the dimensions of there vehicle.

then you have lane discipline. if everyone pulled there heads out of there asses and get the hell out of the passing lane, the people who want to go faster wouldent need to weave in and out of traffic. but nooooo if your going 3mph over the speed limit you feel inclined to be in "the fast lane" which isent even the fast lane, its the passing lane. then you have people who will intentially speed up when someone is forced to pass on the right. you even have people who will slow down because they feel its there duty to help inforce the speed limit on other drivers.

the system was writen to pander and cater to morons. its inherantly and severly flawed.

to simply state "speeding motorists cause car accidents" is false. many people speed and dont cause accidents. many people who dont speed do cause accidents. as i said previously, it has been my experience that people driving 5-10 mph faster then the speed limit are inherently SAFER because they are naturally more aware of what is going on. your braking the law, you have more invested in situational awareness. any car manufactured in the last 20 years is just as safe at 80 as it is as 60. the only thing to consider is stopping distance.

[russellc]

its not nearly as cut and dry as that. most of the innocent drivers who miraculously get caught up in such accidents do far more incorrect then correct. and in all honesty its not really their fault, they are simply uneducated. if, by law, everyone was required to take a basic car control class and had to prove they could control a vehicle is less then optimal conditions (i.e. a slide or a spin) they they would receive there drivers license. but its not. any retard who can press peddles and rotate the wheel can drive on the street here in the states. your breeding failure into the system. most people think driving is a right not a privileged, and so many people do it so routinely that they give little thought to what is involved and most space out while driving.

i have been in COUNTLESS shady situations while driving down the freeway. people slamming on the brakes for small animals. one guy slowly drifting into another lane of traffic causes another car to freak the hell out and throw the car in the oposit direction. 9 times out of 10 when someone says "they cut me off" there is plenty of room. have you seen the amount of space most people think they need to parallel park? or how much extra room they leave while parking? its fantastic. hardly anyone spends the 5 minutes it takes to really learn the dimensions of there vehicle.

then you have lane discipline. if everyone pulled there heads out of there asses and get the hell out of the passing lane, the people who want to go faster wouldent need to weave in and out of traffic. but nooooo if your going 3mph over the speed limit you feel inclined to be in "the fast lane" which isent even the fast lane, its the passing lane. then you have people who will intentially speed up when someone is forced to pass on the right. you even have people who will slow down because they feel its there duty to help inforce the speed limit on other drivers.

the system was writen to pander and cater to morons. its inherantly and severly flawed.

to simply state "speeding motorists cause car accidents" is false. many people speed and dont cause accidents. many people who dont speed do cause accidents. as i said previously, it has been my experience that people driving 5-10 mph faster then the speed limit are inherently SAFER because they are naturally more aware of what is going on. your braking the law, you have more invested in situational awareness. any car manufactured in the last 20 years is just as safe at 80 as it is as 60. the only thing to consider is stopping distance.

I wasn't talking about the ones that go 10 km/h or 20 km/h faster (5-10 mph), I was referring to the ones that weave in an out of traffic like they're rushing a severely bleeding casualty to the hospital. Sure, the system is catering to idiots, so why do people insist on driving like they're the king of the road when most people on the road are just trying to get from point A to point B? They are, for the most part, morons, and sure some will have terrible general driving ability and shouldn't be allowed on the road to start with, but what about those who are in the mid-range?

Speed is almost entirely proportional to the severity and priority of an accident if there is one. I say almost entirely, because the rest is luck; the slightest chance that you may survive an assumed fatal crash. The OP said he lost control and only had damage to the suspension, so what if he was going 2 times faster? or 3 times faster? What about the traffic all around him? They become victims, be it alive, dead or a vegetable for life. So you will say he's got great control of his car and he should, for some reason, have the right to travel a fair amount faster than the flow of traffic, how does that make everybody else feel? Not everyone is comfortable driving as it is, with someone weaving in and out behind them it will only make them more nervous and uncomfortable. The roads, as previously stated, are not for driving like you're racing, they're for everyone to get to a destination.

The logic that speeding is safer is so flawed; not speeding as in 10-20 km/h over the "speed limit", but significantly faster than the flow of traffic. You don't need to speed to get ahead of the grandma driving at 10 or 20 km/h below the limit. Physics disproves the mindset that speeding is safer. If you want to race, race on a track where others won't be endangered, just yourself; the universe doesn't revolve around any single person (or driver in this case), so how about being aware of others' safety too?

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

There's something I'd like to share. It is related to those news articles Fred has posted. If you read them or if you live in Toronto/Ontario/Canada you'd know about those recent and similar car accidents on Highway 400 - they've got a lot of media coverage and I assume the news also spread thru word of mouth.

I was driving last night after work on Highway 404. Almost all the time, if circumstances allow (day time, dry road, traffic), the cars moving in the left lane go 140-150 km/h (87-93 mph) and never below 130 km/h (80 mph); unless there's someone driving a rusted 1990 Toyota Tercel moves into that lane and keeps the speed at 110-120 km/h - he or she usually gets "yelled" at pretty quick and "kicked" back into the right lane.

I was astonished at how these recent car accidents changed people's driving behaviour. Almost no one was driving above 120 km/h (74.5 mph)!

It's hard to explain what I felt. I was saddened by the fact that innocent people "needed" to die to set example. On the other hand, I felt proud to be living in a society that deals seriously with issues like this, although, I am sure the speed will be back to "normal" 140-150 tonight since most people will have forgotten.

[Nashy]

140 - 150..... what, are they freaking crazy?!

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

140 - 150..... what, are they freaking crazy?!

Sometimes they are, especially when they drive TOO close to one another. What's funny is that I tried going that fast and I arrive at almost exact time. There's maybe 1-2 minute difference and I would end up burning a lot more fuel, so it's really pointless.

The speed limit is 100 (62 mph), but the cops in Ontario almost never stop anyone doing 130 km/h during the day on a dry highway. You might get busted thou if you go 130 (80 mph) when it's raining. So in a sence, enforcement really starts at 135+ (84 mph) speeds. Anyone going 140 (87 mph) plays with fire, but people know that if they just follow someone doing 140, it's the person in front of them who's gonna get busted, not them, coz they are behind and will probably have more time to react to radars ahead of them.

[MiG-]

140 - 150..... what, are they freaking crazy?!

that tends to be the general speed of the "fast lane" in the UK...

crazy in Britain would be what ? 100 - 110mph which is getting to 160+km/hr

Seems to work fine here :whistle:

[Nashy]

^ Haven't you only recently got your license / car?

If so, I would hope you don't even think about driving those sorts of speeds.

Jesus, I can't do any more than 120km/h before I feel I'm a danger to me and the other drivers. And thats in the fast lane, on a 10 lane highway

[MiG-]

^ Haven't you only recently got your license / car?

If so, I would hope you don't even think about driving those sorts of speeds.

Jesus, I can't do any more than 120km/h before I feel I'm a danger to me and the other drivers. And thats in the fast lane, on a 10 lane highway

Been driving almost a year.

And 120km/h really isn't that fast.. its when you start getting 100mph/160km/h that things start getting interesting...

But then again, there are many a car that will sit at 90+mph on the UK motorways.

[Nashy]

Yeah, and I thought Australian drivers were bad. You'll often see someone doing 130km/h+ and think to yourself "what a dick", well, looks like every other country in the world seems to think this is alright.

120km/h is fast. Argue that point all you like. You should never put yourself into a situation that starts to get "interesting", thats when you stuff up, and you kill yourself, or an innocent victim.

Almost a year isn't much experience on the road, but it sounds like you are a typical new driver, invincible and over confident. Those speeds you are talking about are absolutely and utterly ridiculous, and quite frightening to think that someone would think its ok to drive at such excessive speeds.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

I don't have a problem of speeding per se. I do have a problem with going significantly faster than the flow of traffic and weaving through them.

If conditions allow it, pure speed is not a huge concern for me especially when it is confined to the left (passing) lane.

[MiG-]

Yeah, and I thought Australian drivers were bad. You'll often see someone doing 130km/h+ and think to yourself "what a dick", well, looks like every other country in the world seems to think this is alright.

120km/h is fast. Argue that point all you like. You should never put yourself into a situation that starts to get "interesting", thats when you stuff up, and you kill yourself, or an innocent victim.

Almost a year isn't much experience on the road, but it sounds like you are a typical new driver, invincible and over confident. Those speeds you are talking about are absolutely and utterly ridiculous, and quite frightening to think that someone would think its ok to drive at such excessive speeds.

Come and drive on the british roads for a bit ;)

You'll love it. :p

100mph is not ridiuclous if the car is perfectly capable of being sat at that speed. Just because your used to driving at a certain speed, doesn't mean other people aren't used to driving faster. I'm not going to argue anything, thats how things are over here, its not seemed excessive to me, like 70mph probably seems fine to you.

People travelling at 120+mph, thats when you NEED to be a good driver.

[Nashy]

No. Thats when you need the keys removed from your ignition, and a bicycle helmet given.

[Yorak]

Nashy what kind of car do you have? If you're getting scared going 80mph, you either have an old, wobbley car, or you're just a wimp. :p (Ohh, or the roads/traffic are bad there.)

I typically get up to 85mph on the highway if weather and traffic conditions permit. I find it hard to do anything below 70mph on a highway.

[russellc]

140 - 150..... what, are they freaking crazy?!

On the 404, the left lane is the "fast lane" which is almost always very clear and people usually obey the rules of it. They dubbed it the carpool lane or the HOV lane which is for cars with more than one person (a driver and at least one passenger). It is very typical for people to go 140 km/h on that lane. Cops don't care for speeding much in that lane, but they find hiding spots to catch you if you are not obeying the rules of the lane (if you are an only driver driving no passengers), like the little tunnel that leads to the 401, for anyone that lives in Toronto and frequents that area. I assume he is talking about this lane on the 404.

People do some really irritating things in regards to that lane, but thats for another thread.

[Nose Nuggets]

Not everyone is comfortable driving as it is, with someone weaving in and out behind them it will only make them more nervous and uncomfortable. The roads, as previously stated, are not for driving like you're racing

then you shouldn't be driving! the uncomfortable slow drivers are the dangerous ones. people merging on to the freeway at 35 miles an hour are the ones that cause problems. RARELY do you hear about people weaving in and out of traffic directly cause a collision. its the other people around them that swerve to avoid that cause problems.

and speed is totally relative. ive been 170mph before. its not that big of a deal. ill cruise at 100mph on our 4/5 lane freeways here in California if traffic permits. all you have to do is be able to anticipate. reactions are over rated. did you know Formula 1 drivers have reaction times that rate with professional bowlers? yeah.... bowlers.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

Nashy what kind of car do you have? If you're getting scared going 80mph, you either have an old, wobbley car, or you're just a wimp. :p (Ohh, or the roads/traffic are bad there.)

I typically get up to 85mph on the highway if weather and traffic conditions permit. I find it hard to do anything below 70mph on a highway.

I agree, it does depend on the car. Basically any German car and some other luxury/sports car and SUV's give the driver a false sence of safety. The danger is still there, we can't break laws of physics.

I drive 2001 BMW X5. There's practically no difference when I go 100 or 140 or more. The car is stable as rock. The suspension and the steering wheel are stiff, I get excellent road feedback and feel total control of the machine - that's a false sence of safety that I was just talking about. But I'd be a fool to think that because of the car I'm driving, I'm somehow special and can do things against the law.

My family owns a 2003 Kia Sedona van. I never go above 120 in that car. It's just freaky. The steering wheel is too "soft" and when I'm on a highway on a windy day, I get chills sometimes because it seems that the car can roll over.

Another example. I was in Europe once and rented a Fiat Punto. I tried to stay far away from those big trucks, it seemed that the Punto was as light as a feather and could just jump up and go overboard when big trucks would pass me.

So the bottom line is that the perception of speed and consequently your safety varies depending on the car you drive; and even if you do feel safe going at high speeds, it doesn't mean that it is, in fact, safe.

[The Rev]

"Pride comes before a fall." Nuff said.

[rec_kris]

i'm always tempted to clip people who are speeding weaving in and out of lanes. i think the aftermath of damage to my vehicle, court fees, etc would be worth seeing them dead.

[russellc]

then you shouldn't be driving! the uncomfortable slow drivers are the dangerous ones. people merging on to the freeway at 35 miles an hour are the ones that cause problems. RARELY do you hear about people weaving in and out of traffic directly cause a collision. its the other people around them that swerve to avoid that cause problems.

and speed is totally relative. ive been 170mph before. its not that big of a deal. ill cruise at 100mph on our 4/5 lane freeways here in California if traffic permits. all you have to do is be able to anticipate. reactions are over rated. did you know Formula 1 drivers have reaction times that rate with professional bowlers? yeah.... bowlers.

So because people weave in and out of traffic, other normal drivers should adapt to it? Just because the regular soccer mom won't know the proper steps to recover from loss of control of their car, they should lose the privilege of driving completely? Throwing oneself at a high velocity isn't natural, and if people lose control of their car, they would panic. Driving is like the new walking, they don't expect to learn all the maneuvers to saving yourself from lost control of a car, so why can't we all just drive peacefully and not risk anybody's life?

Also, driving on a highway obviously is not a big deal. It's the excessive lane changing that is just plain irritating, stupid and dangerous. Honestly, if it were up to me, I'd say nuts to driving and thumbs up for giant tubes for transport (Futurama, anybody?). Of course, we have trains and such which are good enough I suppose. But tubes would be totally cool.

[Nose Nuggets]

"Pride comes before a fall." Nuff said.

i'm always tempted to clip people who are speeding weaving in and out of lanes. i think the aftermath of damage to my vehicle, court fees, etc would be worth seeing them dead.

ya! look at the logical and well thought out posts. i spam for food probably does not even know who said that without googling it, probably because its mis-quoted to begin with. however, it has no relevance anyway so i suppose it does not matter. <snipped> he somehow feels as though he is entitled to kill people who speed.

fantastic!

[rec_kris]

i'm a tool but read your post.

toolbox.

i want to end the lives of people who are a risk to others.