Paramount in HD DVD blow

[Boz]

I think I'm starting to understand what Warner did. I think it's pretty clear now that they wanted to go the HD-DVD way. The market right now is not big, but it isn't THAT small either. For once, the user base of either format is greater than a million.

When they saw that the alleged plans of going HD-DVD with Fox didn't work out, they went Blu. And not only did they go Blu, they announced it when it was going to hurt HD-DVD the most, with CES just the following days. Nobody will deny that there's a huge PR machinery going on to kill HD-DVD, and Toshiba canceling the press conference isn't helping either.

Of course, to justify turning their backs on a million of consumers they HAVE to kill HD-DVD asap. Otherwise, while it is a step towards ending the war, it doesn't mean an immediate defeat of HD-DVD.

They have to lure either Universal or Paramount, and it's all done. I don't expect BD's demand to soar HIGH, but I'm sure HD-DVD sales (both hardware and software) will suffer if uncertainty about the format's future continue. Paramount and Universal may have the biggest catalog in the business, that if they don't release it, it's pointless. Paramount didn't release that many titles when they were neutral. For all I care, Fox could go 'red' and nobody in the blu side will miss them.

Bravo Julius! and I'm completely serious. Wonderful and very logical post. This is EXACTLY what happened. In general, they wanted to go with HD DVD because they knew it was more mainstream consumer ready. It would've populated the market by the end of 2008.

However they knew that Sony and BDA was too strong with alliances and that Warner themselves wouldn't be enough to end the war. It is completely true that Warner wanted to end the war. Their decision is fueled by it. But HD DVD need a little more time to spread out and take over PS3 massive lead Blu-Ray had and they knew it would've stretched out for another year or more. When they saw that Fox won't go, they probably negotiated the same deal Toshiba offered them from Sony side and they flipped. So it is true when Warner executive says that money wasn't really the real reason they picked Blu-ray, but they sure didn't say "oh we love Blu so much we'll do it for free". It's business afterall and they know that they'll have major setbacks with Blu-Ray with the shape it's in.

I don't hate them of course. Warner is one of my favorite clients as far as work goes and they have some good ways of thinking, but I think they made a mistake with this. They gave huge advantage to a format that will take at least until mid, end 2009 to produce players that would include all features that HD DVD Players had at <$200 price. By end of 2009, we will have another big contender that emerged, that probably already started taking over as they have so much press everywhere, it's a done deal.

[Joel]

Just like the clearence sale on those sub $99 HD DVD players not too long ago. Those were the lowest of the lowest of HD DVD players feature wise, thats why they were so cheap. Theres still HD DVD players that retail at or higher then the price of BD players. But nobody cares about that, right? :/

What features were missing, besides 1080p support?

Its sub $100 because they cant keep up with the sales of the competitor :/

No way in hell they would go that low if they were the only ones on the market..

And sub $100 was a sale? :huh:

No BD player has been less than $200.

The age of some people really stand out here. My first DVD player was $775, which was the second-cheapest when they came out. DVDs were mostly $30 each. The ones that are out now at $9.99 are the cheapest looking box, pressing and sound, but no ones cares because they can play it on their PS2/PS3/Xbox 360 and claim they're an audiophile/videophile. It's laughable. They buy the cheapest 1080p TV they can find, and think it rocks.

A new technology selling at < $100 is incredible this far (or rather, this short) into the life of the format.

[profets]

Bravo Julius! and I'm completely serious. Wonderful and very logical post. This is EXACTLY what happened. In general, they wanted to go with HD DVD because they knew it was more mainstream consumer ready. It would've populated the market by the end of 2008.

this is EXACTLY what happened? you know that for fact? haha, come on already. what would have happened if they had gone HDDVD was the war being dragged out even longer (not that its over), and at least this way theres a chance for it to end soon - allowing HDM to become more popular, demand to rise, supply to rise, and prices to come down

what we all want is a single HDM format backed by all movie studios. who really cares if its hddvd or bd? both are allowing us to watch movies in 1080p.

They gave huge advantage to a format that will take at least until mid, end 2009 to produce players that would include all features that HD DVD Players had at <$200 price. By end of 2009, we will have another big contender that emerged, that probably already started taking over as they have so much press everywhere, it's a done deal.

mid to end 2009 for a BD player at <200 with all hddvd features? from what i see, the only sub 200 hddvd players here is a very ugly looking 199 venturer stuck at 1080i.

[Joel]

stuck at 1080i.

Anything less than 42-46" doesn't need more than that.

[7Dash8]

Someone explain to me why it matters that Blu-Ray won and HD DVD lost?? Unless Im mistaken Blu Ray is technically superior to HD DVD and so what if it's owned by Sony? CDs were developed by Phillips and we didn't see them take over the entire planet. This desparate last ditch crap by HD DVD fanboys is getting tiring. We're talking about a DISK FORMAT here not a struggle for freedom against evil. The sooner we can get one format to win the quicker we can all move on and see the market grow. It looks like most of the people who went HD DVD can accept it with the notable exception of Boz who keeps coming up with new and exciting ways to regurgitate the same crap as though he's some sort of guru on high def disk formats.

[ctebah]

Someone explain to me why it matters that Blu-Ray won and HD DVD lost?? Unless Im mistaken Blu Ray is technically superior to HD DVD and so what if it's owned by Sony? CDs were developed by Phillips and we didn't see them take over the entire planet. This desparate last ditch crap by HD DVD fanboys is getting tiring. We're talking about a DISK FORMAT here not a struggle for freedom against evil. The sooner we can get one format to win the quicker we can all move on and see the market grow. It looks like most of the people who went HD DVD can accept it with the notable exception of Boz who keeps coming up with new and exciting ways to regurgitate the same crap as though he's some sort of guru on high def disk formats.

CD's were developed by Philips and Sony and are extremely successful product.

The CD and its extensions have been extremely successful: in 2004, worldwide sales of CD audio, CD-ROM, and CD-R reached about 30 billion discs.[1] By 2007, 200 billion CDs had been sold worldwide.

[7Dash8]

CD's were developed by Philips and Sony and are extremely successful product.

Yes I know they're successful (thanks for pointing out the obvious) what i mean is that Phillips didn't wind up ruling the world because they developed CDs. The biggest argument against blu ray I've seen is that if it wins then Sony will kill us all. That's hardly a great argument against BD, but it's the best that HD DVD fanboys can come up with.

[ctebah]

Yes I know they're successful (thanks for pointing out the obvious) what i mean is that Phillips didn't wind up ruling the world because they developed CDs. The biggest argument against blu ray I've seen is that if it wins then Sony will kill us all. That's hardly a great argument against BD, but it's the best that HD DVD fanboys can come up with.

No, I think you fail to see my point.

CD's were developed by Philips and Sony.

Blu-Ray is developed and licenced by the Blu-Ray Association which has the following members: Matsushita, Pioneer, Philips, Thomson, LG Electronics, Hitachi, Sharp, Samsung, and Sony. Blu-Ray itself was started by Hitachi, LG, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson.

[Ayepecks]

No, I think you fail to see my point.

CD's were developed by Philips and Sony.

Blu-Ray is developed and licenced by the Blu-Ray Association which has the following members: Matsushita, Pioneer, Philips, Thomson, LG Electronics, Hitachi, Sharp, Samsung, and Sony. Blu-Ray itself was started by Hitachi, LG, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson.

You're failing to see his point because you're taking a minor aspect of his post, where he omitted Sony from co-creating the compact disc with Philips, and blowing it out of proportion. You're arguing that they were developed by Sony and Philips and are extremely successful. He never argued you, did he not? He's giving a hypothetical example. Chill out.

[Huleboeren]

snip

No BD player has been less than $200.

The age of some people really stand out here. My first DVD player was $775, which was the second-cheapest when they came out. DVDs were mostly $30 each. The ones that are out now at $9.99 are the cheapest looking box, pressing and sound, but no ones cares because they can play it on their PS2/PS3/Xbox 360 and claim they're an audiophile/videophile. It's laughable. They buy the cheapest 1080p TV they can find, and think it rocks.

A new technology selling at < $100 is incredible this far (or rather, this short) into the life of the format.

What is your point? :huh:

[7Dash8]

No, I think you fail to see my point.

CD's were developed by Philips and Sony.

It seems to me you're missing the point.

Yes, both Sony and Phillips developed CDs. Now explain to me how these two companies, due to developing this technology, went on to rule the world and rob us of all our freedoms (as HD DVD supporters imply Sony will do when they talk about Blu-Ray's victory)?

Blu-Ray is developed and licenced by the Blu-Ray Association which has the following members: Matsushita, Pioneer, Philips, Thomson, LG Electronics, Hitachi, Sharp, Samsung, and Sony. Blu-Ray itself was started by Hitachi, LG, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson.

This only backs what I'm saying, the development of Blu-Ray, whether Sony owns the license or a consortium, doesn't mean that with Blu-Ray winning we're going to see the end of all competition and the end of the world as we know it.

So my point basically is this... aside from the HD DVD fanboys who are upset that their favorite team lost, can anyone put forward a logical intelligent argument as to how the victory of Blu-Ray over HD DVD will be anything but a good thing for consumers?

[shakey_snake]

ISo my point basically is this... aside from the HD DVD fanboys who are upset that their favorite team lost, can anyone put forward a logical intelligent argument as to how the victory of Blu-Ray over HD DVD will be anything but a good thing for consumers?

The quicker a HD optical format is accepted, the less time internet distribution has to grow and mature to the point that we can "skip" this format and move straight from DVD to internet/cable subscription service distribution.

In other words, the more entrenched this format gets, the slower we will be to move to the inevitable.

[Boz]

It seems to me you're missing the point.

Yes, both Sony and Phillips developed CDs. Now explain to me how these two companies, due to developing this technology, went on to rule the world and rob us of all our freedoms (as HD DVD supporters imply Sony will do when they talk about Blu-Ray's victory)?

This only backs what I'm saying, the development of Blu-Ray, whether Sony owns the license or a consortium, doesn't mean that with Blu-Ray winning we're going to see the end of all competition and the end of the world as we know it.

So my point basically is this... aside from the HD DVD fanboys who are upset that their favorite team lost, can anyone put forward a logical intelligent argument as to how the victory of Blu-Ray over HD DVD will be anything but a good thing for consumers?

TECHNICAL CONS of Blu-Ray that has an affect on the consumer:

- more expensive no similar featured players as with HD DVD for another year and a half or two. In the meantime consumer will need to buy more then one BD player to fully use upcoming BD disc's capabilities.

- not region free

- more drm that will phone home too (PS3 already phones about everything you do/watch/connect to on it to Sony)

- profiles creating dispaired hardware along with limiting consumers what they get for money unlike HD DVD that included much more for much less. For the ones on the market requires more sophisticated audio/video recievers that do decoding for TrueHD and DD+ along with DTS HD standards instead of heaving them decoded in player.

- no combo/twin discs - no SD DVD / HD DVD movies for the price of one HD movie allowing you to play them anywhere and not just your Blu-Ray player. For Blu, in case you need a movie on DVD, you have to buy it.

- slower decrease in media pricing beause of transfered costs of manufacturing when we get into millions of discs for a single title and multi-milion dollar investments made by replicators to do replication

- lower yield rates with replication with DL50gb discs (in 70-80%) while HD DVD was in 95% percent. This means that when you do a million discs on Blu-ray you will need to discard 20-30% of discs (around 200-300k discs) and this cost will be transfered again directly to the consumer. This will eventually go away, but the initial costs for this that might last another year or two will be transfered to the consumer.

- inability to repair discs if they are scratched (yep, they are tougher to scratch but impossible to repair). With DVDs and inherntly with HD DVDs even if it's scratched you can resurface it.

TECHNICAL PROs for Blu:

- bigger size for the optical disc (assuming HD DVD never gets TL51 which has been approved)

- better burning support

- much more scratch resistant

- higher bitrate (assuming HD DVD never gets TL51 which has been approved)

And this is from the top of my head.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Boz

[Smigit]

Nice debate here :p

Anyway I'm pro Blu Ray now, as someone said on page one or two, if you can't beat them join them. I think HD-DVD has some very strong merits over BluRay from the format being better planned to prices of players (currently) but ultimatly having more studios is more important IMHO and the extra space should be good for backup purposes (despite the fact larger HD-DVD disk are also on the way).

On a plus I guess it's an incentive to get a PS3 which here in Aus isn't alot more than a HD-DVD player which are still $500AU besides the $220- $250 Xbox one.

So with that in mind, I hope Paramount jump ship. I felt that dual players would arrive before either side has won, but in the past week or so it seems this could be over alot quicker than I expected.

[Coldgunner]

TECHNICAL CONS of Blu-Ray that has an affect on the consumer:

- more expensive no similar featured players as with HD DVD for another year and a half or two. In the meantime consumer will need to buy more then one player to fully use the disc's capabilities.

- not region free

- more drm that will phone home too (PS3 already phones about everything you do/watch/connect to on it to Sony)

- profiles creating dispaired hardware along with limiting consumers what they get for money unlike HD DVD that included much more for much less. For the ones on the market requires more sophisticated audio/video recievers that do decoding for TrueHD and DD+ along with DTS HD standards instead of heaving them decoded in player.

- no combo/twin discs - no SD DVD / HD DVD movies for the price of one HD movie allowing you to play them anywhere and not just your Blu-Ray player. For Blu, in case you need a movie on DVD, you have to buy it.

- slower decrease in media pricing beause of transfered costs of manufacturing when we get into millions of discs for a single title and multi-milion dollar investments made by replicators to do replication

- lower yield rates with replication with DL50gb discs (in 70-80%) while HD DVD was in 95% percent. This means that when you do a million discs on Blu-ray you will need to discard 20-30% of discs (around 200-300k discs) and this cost will be transfered again directly to the consumer. This will eventually go away, but the initial costs for this that might last another year or two will be transfered to the consumer.

- inability to repair discs if they are scratched (yep, they are tougher to scratch but impossible to repair). With DVDs and inherntly with HD DVDs even if it's scratched you can resurface it.

TECHNICAL PROs for Blu:

- bigger size for the optical disc (assuming HD DVD never gets TL51 which has been approved)

- better burning support

- much more scratch resistant

- higher bitrate (assuming HD DVD never gets TL51 which has been approved)

And this is from the top of my head.

couple of points

firstly, people have been buying the ps3 for bd playback, this will be upgraded, only needing one player. I know standalones mostly can't, but people generally go for the better deal in the ps3

Region coding isn't as big an issue as you make out. most people buy their disks locally, as with dvd, it'll get to the point where they buy them when doing the weekly shopping. region coding did dvd no harm.

BD has more uncompressed tracks, may not sound better to joe public on their stereo system, but guys with dedicated cinema rooms lap this up

only the US seemed to get combo disks. I think most people are happy to pick up the dvd as well as the BD, dvd's cost next to nothing now

fair enough yield rates are worse, but manufacturing processes will improve and become cheaper. this will affect the street price over time.

BD's are pretty tough, but IMO if one gets so badly damaged they'll buy a new copy

and lastly BD can go to 3+ layers, as it has been tested in lab conditions of up to 8 layers. most players will get compatibility with firmware updates. I know these have not been approved but the technology is there.

- more drm that will phone home too (PS3 already phones about everything you do/watch/connect to on it to Sony)

forgot this one, but this seems to be mainly a worry for the tinfoil hat brigade. so what if sony know what game your playing or what you downloaded last. besides, the ps3 drops all its net connections and logins when you load a BD.

[shakey_snake]

- lower yield rates with replication with DL50gb discs (in 70-80%) while HD DVD was in 95% percent. This means that when you do a million discs on Blu-ray you will need to discard 20-30% of discs (around 200-300k discs) and this cost will be transfered again directly to the consumer. This will eventually go away, but the initial costs for this that might last another year or two will be transfered to the consumer.

3 layer 51GB HDDVD's have higher yield rates? I thought they were vaporware. :wacko:

Unless you're comparing apples (30GB HD DVD's) to oranges (50GB Blu's)

You wouldn't skew stats like that to look favorable for HD DVD, now would you Boz? :trout:

[Boz]

Several things that you are underestimating as irrelevant or are simply not an issue as you make it out.

couple of points

firstly, people have been buying the ps3 for bd playback, this will be upgraded, only needing one player. I know standalones mostly can't, but people generally go for the better deal in the ps3

And this is irrelevant as it still costs $400.

Region coding isn't as big an issue as you make out. most people buy their disks locally, as with dvd, it'll get to the point where they buy them when doing the weekly shopping

Again, this is not at all OK. Region coding will make sure that you are unable to buy any movie you might like in the US and you want it. For example, I want to buy a few french movies. With Blu-Ray I simply can't. There's quite a few people out there that want to buy movies from different regions, not to mention the fact when you go on a vacation to some other country and possibly pick up discs from there. Region free is in general much more import to the rest of the world then US.

To just say it's ok that region free exists and it's not a big deal is kind of selfish. There's a reason why we saw an explosion of DVD players that are unlocked. People wanted freedom to buy whatever and wherever they wanted.

You can bet your ass that Blu-Ray won't allow such hacks now. It's much tighter controlled. The only reason Blu-Ray movies were somewhat region free is because of HD DVD. If HD DVD is gone, they'll go back to business as usual.

Granted, maybe I am wrong, maybe they'll just use region coding to specifically limit only some titles that have release dates in certain teritorries out of whack, but I highgly doubt it.

BD has more uncompressed tracks, may not sound better to joe public on their stereo system, but guys with dedicated cinema rooms lap this up

Of course this means nothing. The more movies come out they'll use TrueHD and DD+ that sound equal to audio master. So uncompressed tracks are really a moot point as beneficial to the consumer and enthusiasts. TrueHD and DD+ 1.5 tracks have provided 5/5 star audio reviews from most reputable A/V sites. Obviously uncompressed tracks are not necessary for ultimate experience.

only the US seemed to get combo disks. I think most people are happy to pick up the dvd as well as the BD, dvd's cost next to nothing now

I don't know about the rest of the world and combos, but the fact that it's possible means that some of the studios overseas might do it but not necessarily do. With Blu-Ray you can't do it at all. Well you have this new PS3 to PSP copy of the movie, but it's not the same thing. First it requires PSP, second it won't work on other devices and third it's 400x272px video.

BD's are pretty tough, but IMO if one gets so badly damaged they'll buy a new copy

Sure, spend another $30-40 on a movie when you can save it. I'm sure everyone craps money :). Sorry but your assumption is just not true. You've had people buy DVD kits that are everywhere for repairing discs. Obvoiusly it's a common thing for the worst case scenarios.

and lastly BD can go to 3+ layers, as it has been tested in lab conditions of up to 8 layers. most players will get compatibility with firmware updates. I know these have not been approved but the technology is there.

When they completely fix dual layer with production, we can discuss the viability of triple layers. Hitachi 100gb disc that "might" player on current hardware is very moot, especially with unstandardized players all over the place with Blu-Ray manufacturers, but you are right, in theory Blu-Ray should be able to have more layers of data.

To basically be very objective, optical media is a missed medium anyways. It's completely obsolete and unless it's used for movie delivery or content delivery on a mass level, hard drives, solid state drives, wireless usb devices and similar delivering terabytes of content and keep shrinking in size while being fully rewritable at much higher speeds then optical discs. But I guess we'll have to still see about that.

forgot this one, but this seems to be mainly a worry for the tinfoil hat brigade. so what if sony know what game your playing or what you downloaded last. besides, the ps3 drops all its net connections and logins when you load a BD.

Again Coldgunner, this is an issue that really bothers me personally. They are well known for rootkits and other crap. They've done it more then once. Look at the PS3 EULA. It's not just what movies you play.

They reserve the right to collect ALL information, meaning any devices you might have connected to your PS3, hard drives, computers, movies and games you play, what you download etc.

If you need me, I can quote that part for you. Anything you connect to PS3 can be snooped at for their own information about your habits and interest.

Maybe you're fine with that, but I don't like the feeling that someone is constanty watching what I"m doing and what I connect to the PS3.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Boz

[Coldgunner]

were combos not more expensive though?

but with the tougher coating and different layering, would that not require average joe with damaged disc to get a new disc cleaner? but think 2-3 years down the line, bd's will be averaging the ?10-?15 mark, which makes a direct replacemnet more viable.

[Julius Caro]

forgot this one, but this seems to be mainly a worry for the tinfoil hat brigade. so what if sony know what game your playing or what you downloaded last. besides, the ps3 drops all its net connections and logins when you load a BD.

Nice to point that little fact out, which is entirely true.

Why the sudden care for disc cleaning??? Last and only time I got a disc cleaner was probably back in 1999 to fix a cd or something. And I'm not even sure I did that, lol.

I think DVD has enough protection to stay readable even if it takes ages to read. So HD-DVD has a similar coating and BD has a better one. Big deal. If people take minimal care, those cleaners are totally unnecessary

[Boz]

were combos not more expensive though?

but with the tougher coating and different layering, would that not require average joe with damaged disc to get a new disc cleaner? but think 2-3 years down the line, bd's will be averaging the ?10-?15 mark, which makes a direct replacemnet more viable.

Eh? It's not a disc cleaner it's a similar machine that allows resurfacing of the disc. Usually your Gamespot or video rental place will have them too. They shave of precisly a small layer of the disc to even the surface so the disc can be read. Since the data layer is at 0.6 mm from the surface you can do that and have the disc working.

With Blu-Ray if you do that, you destroy the data layer as it's positioned at 0.1 mm from the surface. Makes sense?

were combos not more expensive though?

Now we venture in an interesting territory.

No, they were not. They were overall for some movies, BUT, this was not due to production costs which Warner obviously proved as they started releasing combos and Blu-ray movies at the same price. So not only did you get the SD version, but you had more interactivity.

Of course, there are other combos from other studios that are slightly more expensive but obviously that's not due production costs, it's due to the fact that they are all greedy and trying to make a buck with early adopters. For example, Fox Blu-Ray discs some of them were $40 too. Same price as other studio's HD DVD combos. That's not an issue. Combos were same price overall. I have somewhere listing for the costs of replication for BD25 discs and HDDVD HD-30 combo.. they were close to each other in price per 10k units. I'll try to find it and post it for you.

[Sethos]

Just noticed around 3 of my local retail stores had started carrying Blu-ray movies, to my surprise they were the same or even cheaper than regular DVD's here in Denmark.

I asked if they were on sale, he said that was the normal price of Blu-ray discs. So where did all this "Blu-ray is more expensive" come from?

[Boz]

Just noticed around 3 of my local retail stores had started carrying Blu-ray movies, to my surprise they were the same or even cheaper than regular DVD's here in Denmark.

I asked if they were on sale, he said that was the normal price of Blu-ray discs. So where did all this "Blu-ray is more expensive" come from?

Depends which one..there are some movies on both Blu-Ray and HD DVD that are being sold for $19.99 and $18.95. HD DVD has a bit more of those but they are available for both. Usually the cheaper BDs will be BD25gb ones.

[kak]

Can we stop 'speculating' why or why not Warner was 'supposed' to go HD-DVD? The fact is that they did not and they went Blu-exclusive. You can guess the likely scenarios based on insiders, who at this rate are chronically wrong, and make no logical explanations. Its ridiculous trying to read through this garbage because none of it is based on reliable sources or printed fact. Until it is, hush up.

While I'm at it, stop talking about digital downloads. Do you really think these studios are going to switch media this late in the game? Yeah, they'll invest millions into a media war only to cut their losses and battle on a new front. Haha, WRONG. Its hilarious how the logic is here. Two weeks ago we didn't see anything about digital downloads, now its the new big thing for ex- HD-DVD fans. For real, get a grip.

[Coldgunner]

Eh? It's not a disc cleaner it's a similar machine that allows resurfacing of the disc. Usually your Gamespot or video rental place will have them too. They shave of precisly a small layer of the disc to even the surface so the disc can be read. Since the data layer is at 0.6 mm from the surface you can do that and have the disc working.

With Blu-Ray if you do that, you destroy the data layer as it's positioned at 0.1 mm from the surface. Makes sense?

thats what I mean't, was not worded well. they would need to get bd specific cleaners

[Boz]

While I'm at it, stop talking about digital downloads. Do you really think these studios are going to switch media this late in the game? Yeah, they'll invest millions into a media war only to cut their losses and battle on a new front. Haha, WRONG. Its hilarious how the logic is here. Two weeks ago we didn't see anything about digital downloads, now its the new big thing for ex- HD-DVD fans. For real, get a grip.

Because at CES they are talking about it? XStreamHD is in every news. I'm sure everybody talking about it is an HD DVD fan. LOL.

Not everything is about format wars. Now we can't even talk about things that are awesomely great and actually better then any optical media? God forbid there's something better then Blu-Ray.

Calm down.

thats what I mean't, was not worded well. they would need to get bd specific cleaners

They can't make them. The data layer is written at 0.1 mm.. There's no way you can resurface a disc so close. Makes sense?