Policy regarding OS X on non-Apple Hardware

[matt4pack]

That's Apple's fault, not the fault of the user. :) There are copies of OSX sitting on the shelf at Best Buy that you can just go in and purchase. They do not ask you at the register if you own a Mac, just like they don't ask you if you own a computer when you buy PC software...

I know that but I'm just saying that if this starts happening a lot then Apple might resort to higher prices, product keys, or activation in future versions of OS X.

[Brian M. Veteran]

OSX is roughly (give or take a few ?) the same price as OEM Vista Home Premium.

Apple have the family pack of OSX which is more expensive, Microsoft have retail versions which are more expensive. Seems fairly even to me.

[1759]

The problem with allowing this discussion that most people don't seem to realize is that Apple subsidizes the cost of OS X through the sale of their hardware. That's why OS X cost $129 while a full version of Vista Ultimate is much more expensive. I don't know if Apple actually makes money selling OS X at $129 compared to the amount of research and development that goes into it but the purpose of OS X is not to sell as a standalone product but to sell hardware. Now if people use OSx86 and then end up buying a Mac then nothing is really lost but if these people don't end up buying a Mac then we could end up seeing a higher price, product keys, or activation in the future.

Microsoft subsidizes the cost of Windows through OEMs - home builders can buy OEM copies of Vista/XP for about half of retail, and for companies like Dell/HP, etc the cost is probably much less.

People would pirate Windows is it was $50 - same will happen with Apple, OSx86 or not, if nothing else, the easist way to pirate OSX is on Apple HW. Piracy will occur no matter what Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, Autodesk intend to do.

[dysmatik]

very taboo topic....

[mrt2]

They are just annoyed that they have paid over the odds for basic pc hardware and now people can spend ?150 on leopard and run it on their own PCs.

Have you ever seen first hand (not pictures) the inside of a Mac Pro? It is so far from 'basic'. It's an amazingly designed computer. Just like anything else in life... some people pay more for better design even if perceived 'horse power' is a little less... It's the same way with all sorts of electronics... even cars for that matter.

[BoJo]

While I'm not entirely against OSx86, because I think that it will hopefully bring interesting stuff to the table from apple, I am against warez, and I think that this is stepping dangerously close to the line.

I would also hope that Neowin could create just one more forum in the Apple section, just labelled OSx86 or something, so that the genuine apple software/hardware discussions don't get flooded with OSx86 queries. This is because some of us bought OS X for "Hardware/Software compatibility" reason, and thus don't want our thread bombed with driver issues spam....

Just a question to the Staff here... Will the OSx86 community be posting in the Mac Setups thread? Or will they have their own, because part of the 'Mac Setup' thread's allure is all the beautiful apple hardware, is it not?

Also, in reply to "richard hammond"'s comment about basic pc hardware in shiny package: I'll continue to buy apple...I like their hardware. Also, the closest equivalent of something as consumer as the iMac (the *rip off* dell 'one', is beaten hands down by the iMac).

[matt4pack]

OSX is roughly (give or take a few ?) the same price as OEM Vista Home Premium.

Apple have the family pack of OSX which is more expensive, Microsoft have retail versions which are more expensive. Seems fairly even to me.

Leopard is $129 for the standalone version and $199 for the family pack while Vista Ultimate is $399 for the full version going by retail prices. Of course you can get Vista for much cheaper with an OEM copy but you can also get Leopard at cheaper prices with the student discount or through other places. I guess I can't really complain as I have a MSDN copy of Vista Ultimate on my PC at home that I got from work since it wasn't being used and I will probably install Leopard on that PC also since I don't have a Mac that is capable of running Leopard yet.

[dead.cell]

Yeah, as long as you use enough "winks" when you talk about the imaginary "installation disk", then people will know you are really talking about warez downloading.

Yeah, and I wonder just how many people here are running Windows legit. Hell, some people here openly admit to pirating Windows. And as I said before, I'm pretty damn sure that everyone here who has a copy of Adobe Photoshop didn't pay $400 for it or $649 for Dreamweaver.

So yes, let's just use these "winks" as if this is the first time it has ever been done. Apparently, no piracy occurred when people said to get XP/Vista or some other software.

[FloatingFatMan]

Have you ever seen first hand (not pictures) the inside of a Mac Pro? It is so far from 'basic'. It's an amazingly designed computer. Just like anything else in life... some people pay more for better design even if perceived 'horse power' is a little less... It's the same way with all sorts of electronics... even cars for that matter.

Having seen the insides of a modern Mac, I'll happily agree that they are certainly well built and tidy inside, but they aren't exactly using the top of the line components. I can build a far superior machine using far superior components and far more prettily, for far far less cost.

That's my only bugbear with Mac's really. They are seriously overpriced for what you get.

[markwolfe Veteran]

Yeah, and I wonder just how many people here are running Windows legit. Hell, some people here openly admit to pirating Windows. And as I said before, I'm pretty damn sure that everyone here who has a copy of Adobe Photoshop didn't pay $400 for it or $649 for Dreamweaver.

So yes, let's just use these "winks" as if this is the first time it has ever been done. Apparently, no piracy occurred when people said to get XP/Vista or some other software.

Please don't quote my post to make it sound like I am only concerned about OSX piracy. I have complained about Windows piracy. And about Photoshop, as well (I mean, some kid really plunked down many hundreds of dollars when they have no concept of layers or transparency).

[giga Veteran]

Having seen the insides of a modern Mac, I'll happily agree that they are certainly well built and tidy inside, but they aren't exactly using the top of the line components. I can build a far superior machine using far superior components and far more prettily, for far far less cost.

That's my only bugbear with Mac's really. They are seriously overpriced for what you get.

A computer you build yourself will always be cheaper than a retail option. But just from my curiosity, I'd like to see that computer you're talking about.

[Julius Caro]

The problem with allowing this discussion that most people don't seem to realize is that Apple subsidizes the cost of OS X through the sale of their hardware. That's why OS X cost $129 while a full version of Vista Ultimate is much more expensive. I don't know if Apple actually makes money selling OS X at $129 compared to the amount of research and development that goes into it but the purpose of OS X is not to sell as a standalone product but to sell hardware. Now if people use OSx86 and then end up buying a Mac then nothing is really lost but if these people don't end up buying a Mac then we could end up seeing a higher price, product keys, or activation in the future.

Vista ultimate is more expensive because microsoft pricing strategy is just like that. Linux is free. I guess it would be hard to tell how much a license of an OS should cost.

Microsoft overprices windows to no end, the only reasonable windows prices are those of OEM versions.

And let's not forget that parts of OS X are based on BSD, so much for the "amount of research and development". Although, again, if we were to price all OSs based on R+D, their cost would be infinite. Yet linux is free.

[Circaflex]

I have to say I disagree with this. I'm willing to say whoever has a Hackintosh has not obtained OS X legally, therefor any discussion of it would fall under the warez category. Like .fahim said, the EULA is a contract that you agree to, and breaking it would be against the law. Personally, I think this is a big step backwards. I'm curious as to what Cara has to say.

Oh and I'm with StevoFC on this. Thanks for telling people they need to put the [OSx86] tag on their post - it's going to be a big help in letting me know which threads to ignore. ;)

Thats what you get for assuming, i have 3 free copies of Leopard I got from work for being the "Apple Expert" 2 of which are single and one is the family pack. So i guess mine arent legal? Ive done the hackintosh thing but was pointless IMO.

And I love how some of the older members here are saying "oh well i wont help them because its probably illegal" you do realize that half of the people here are running pirated windows, either xp or vista yet you guys help them all the time. Same with people running windows on a mac, you know half of them are running illegal software, so why cant you help someone running hackintosh? So when someone needs help are we going to be so nazi about it we ask for a scan of the cd and their name by it? If i go into a mac thread asking for help with osx am i going to be immediately targeted as a pirate?

[mrt2]

What is the old saying, "Stick and stones may break my bones, but whips and chain........" wait a minute, wrong saying. ;)

Wow... am I the only person that thought this whole thread just got a little sexier? LOL :D

[BajiRav]

Thats what you get for assuming, i have 3 free copies of Leopard I got from work for being the "Apple Expert" 2 of which are single and one is the family pack. So i guess mine arent legal? Ive done the hackintosh thing but was pointless IMO.

And I love how some of the older members here are saying "oh well i wont help them because its probably illegal" you do realize that half of the people here are running pirated windows, either xp or vista yet you guys help them all the time. Same with people running windows on a mac, you know half of them are running illegal software, so why cant you help someone running hackintosh? So when someone needs help are we going to be so nazi about it we ask for a scan of the cd and their name by it? If i go into a mac thread asking for help with osx am i going to be immediately targeted as a pirate?

I agree. :)

I wonder how many of Mac users actually bought Leopard when they upgraded from Tiger. :whistle:

[mrt2]

Having seen the insides of a modern Mac, I'll happily agree that they are certainly well built and tidy inside, but they aren't exactly using the top of the line components. I can build a far superior machine using far superior components and far more prettily, for far far less cost.

That's my only bugbear with Mac's really. They are seriously overpriced for what you get.

If you can build a superior looking machine... you should submit your resume to the Apple Design team I'm sure they are open to new ideas.

[Wannes]

Sorry for bringing old posts up, it's just the first time I found time to respond. That's the disadvantage of a community making 70 000 posts a month.

Yes. And if I had to guess I would say she won't be happy at all with this decision. And it definitely doesn't make much sense to **** off the most informed Apple/OS X user here.

Support for all things Apple will drop significantly here because of this. I for one, will not help anyone I am even suspicious of using OSX86.

I actually feel the same way. I've been a Windows user for many years and still am, well I have a laptop around with Windows installed. When I decided to use Mac I had heard about the whole "Hackintosh" community but decided not to step into it and bought me a Macbook. Now I own 3 Apple computers already and it's good to have them.

Please guys - and this is not to start a flamewar - if you want Mac OS X - and I understand you do - get an Apple. It's not that they are that expensive or that ugly or ... .

And since when Cara speak for Neowin or Apple? Never, she speaks for herself.

She or the poster referring to her blog never said they were speaking for Neowin and/or Apple.

My concern is the (potential) flood of x86 posts clogging up the Apple Forums. x86 is not Apple related, it is different hardware and software from official distributions of Mac OS from Apple. People can argue this all they way, if you are required to use an EFI Emulator then you are not running the software Native and thus it is not the official method of running it.

I would also like to see a separate forum for x86 because of the flood which may - and probably will - happen. Also, when there is a separate forum it's easier to circumvent the posts. I just won't enter the forum.

I feel that in order to best serve the Apple community here on Neowin, if this topic is going to be allowed there does indeed need to be a x86 forum created for simplicity. How does adding a forum make things more simple? It keeps these threads out of the way of Apple users and allows the x86 community to have their own identity away from Apple users. I feel that many real Apple owners will refuse to aid x86 users, as is their right, and I feel that moving those threads into their own section will cut down on the potential for flame or hostile posting as a result.

Indeed. The disagreements between x86 users and "real" Apple users may grow to a level causing inappropriate discussions and I, for one, would not like to see that happen. I've always loved the Mac subforum for the support, news but also for the extensive amount of friendship and the low level flame baiting.

I'm all for a subforum, if the need arises. :)

Well, that's good to hear.

Ps. Is the Mac OS X desktop thread now open for x86 screenshots? It was so handy to have a desktop thread that doesn't get flooded with 2 pages in 30 minutes.

[Circaflex]

is it me or are the people getting upset the apple fanboys? I dont understand why it ruffles your feathers now that neowin supports hackintosh?

[Wannes]

is it me or are the people getting upset the apple fanboys? I dont understand why it ruffles your feathers now that neowin supports hackintosh?

It took a while for such comment to arise.

I'm not disappointed nor am I sad, I'm only expressing my opinion about the mix of x86 and genuine Apple hardware/software in the Apple forum.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Yeah, and I wonder just how many people here are running Windows legit. Hell, some people here openly admit to pirating Windows. And as I said before, I'm pretty damn sure that everyone here who has a copy of Adobe Photoshop didn't pay $400 for it or $649 for Dreamweaver.

So yes, let's just use these "winks" as if this is the first time it has ever been done. Apparently, no piracy occurred when people said to get XP/Vista or some other software.

Anyone on Neowin who openly admits to pirating Windows (or anything else for that matter) is asking for trouble around here.

[dead.cell]

Please don't quote my post to make it sound like I am only concerned about OSX piracy. I have complained about Windows piracy. And about Photoshop, as well (I mean, some kid really plunked down many hundreds of dollars when they have no concept of layers or transparency).

Oh, I know you have. It's just that you're making it sound like every hackintosh will be run with a pirated copy of OS X which is obviously not true. There will be people who buy it and people who pirate it. Same with... well, just about every piece of software, movie, song, etc.

[vanacid]

I am looking at what I have in software at my house and I don't find anything pirated.

I work for an indie game studio and I know how much it costs in time, efforts, testing and how much you need to be passionate about your product to get it retailed. I won't ever pirate a software.

I can't really understand how you can think about buying OS X if you don't know if it will run on your computer. I think most (more than 90 %) of people using OSX86 have pirated the software. IMHO, any way of circumventing any kind of software protection is illegal. Even more if in the EULA it is written that you are not allowed to do it.

To answer someone who posted before, I have all these softwares and none of them is pirated :

- Windows Vista (yes, I must have a PC to test on all major platforms)

- Windows XP

- Mac OS 10.5

- Unity 3D (An excellent 3D software development tool)

- Cheetah3D

- Pixelmator 1.2

- Mac Office 2008

- Microsoft Office 2007

- Dreamweaver

- Quicktime Pro

- World of Warcraft (I make games and play them too)

- Civilization IV

- Puzzlequest : Challenge of the Warlords

And I also bought my share of games on my Wii and my Xbox 360.

And no, I don't have Adobe Photoshop because I don't really need it.

[Circaflex]

Anyone on Neowin who openly admits to pirating Windows (or anything else for that matter) is asking for trouble around here.

In that case if no one admits to pirating leopard we should receive the same help everyone else gets with asking for windows help, photoshop help, dreamweaver help.

[ahhell]

If you can build a superior looking machine... you should submit your resume to the Apple Design team I'm sure they are open to new ideas.

So what you are saying is that the look of the physical box is much more important than the guts of the box.

For me, it's the opposite.

[vanacid]

Oh, I know you have. It's just that you're making it sound like every hackintosh will be run with a pirated copy of OS X which is obviously not true. There will be people who buy it and people who pirate it. Same with... well, just about every piece of software, movie, song, etc.

It is STILL wrong to pirate anything.

It is illegal to take drugs, it is illegal to steal a bike, it is illegal to download pirated songs,...

They are all ILLEGAL activities.

Breaking an EULA agreement is illegal too.

If you can't respect and comply with an EULA, don't use the software.