Barclays Premier League

[Shibby]

Shocked and dissapointed with Harry.

Spurs aren't a bad club but hell of a lot more work to do this season.

Hopefully Adams does become the full time manager, it seems we are at that stage of former players taking the helm of the clubs!

Saying that, since when have promoted assistants been a great sucess in the clubs manager postion?

[Shibby]

Forgot to add.

Sean Davis and David Nugent, some thick headed like me, may just say that your refusal to move to other club may have costed the club!

[Kralik]

We knew it was coming!

Woow! and so did I.. but before christmas?! I tht they'd wait till new year.. Don't know though to be honest if Ramos could've done more for them.. it was more of the players fault than his.. but he signed them and he failed to lift their spirts from the looks of it.. losing streak is like quick sand if you dont have fighters and champions in your team.. players who are proud of playing for you and always believe there is a way out.. don't know if there is one such player on Spurs.. top 4 (and Man Utd :) ) all have such players... and it seems Spurs are sinking fast.. lets see now who takes the job to be sacked in 2009.. correction: its Harry :D .. Spurs must start winning or they can be the next Leeds Utd..

Edited October 26, 2008 by Kralik

[Martyn]

Spurs are quickly turning into Newcastle.

[Mike]

Jamie Redknapp for Asst?

no club in their right mind would have him as anyone who makes any footballing decisions. Everyone and his dog is 'world class' according to him

[rajputwarrior]

so liverpool won, and while i am ****ing stoked and bet on this game for them to win (And a use oddset against them) i missed it... i don't know how because everything told me it was at 9am pacific time, but apparently not. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :cry:

[Rappy Veteran]

Just heard Tim Sherwood, Kevin Bond and Jamie Redknapp linked to Spurs.

[FaRSightxc2]

Spurs are quickly turning into Newcastle.

No need for that mate. Well harsh.

:p

[Rappy Veteran]

awww shucks Spurs won that means I can't use the "why is a fork better then spurs?" joke :(

;)

[Shibby]

No you can't but you can say "why is my star better than spurs?"

[FaRSightxc2]

No you can't but you can say "why is my star better than spurs?"

To be fair, we are the same as the star.

[Martyn]

Liverpool won :D! Top of the league now, we ended Chelsea's 86 game unbeaten home record and I won my bet (5/1 odds on Liverpool to beat Chelsea). I followed that up with some five a side of my own as well. Good day :).

No need for that mate. Well harsh.

:p

Ha, it must hurt to be compared to Newcastle. Recently though, Spurs are following their trend.

What are your views on Ramos going then? I personally rate him as a manager, he won you the CC last season and did very, very well at Sevilla. It was a bit harsh on him having Keane and Berbatov taken off him as well during the summer. I suppose he had to go though, I think he "lost the dressing room" a long time ago.

[rajputwarrior]

oh yeah i just want to thank john terry for that beautiful deflection...

[Rappy Veteran]

To be fair, we are the same as the star.

I can't think of anything with 6 points other then Newcastle :p

[rajputwarrior]

oh yeah greg, just in case you missed it...

[FaRSightxc2]

Liverpool won :D! Top of the league now, we ended Chelsea's 86 game unbeaten home record and I won my bet (5/1 odds on Liverpool to beat Chelsea). I followed that up with some five a side of my own as well. Good day :).

Ha, it must hurt to be compared to Newcastle. Recently though, Spurs are following their trend.

What are your views on Ramos going then? I personally rate him as a manager, he won you the CC last season and did very, very well at Sevilla. It was a bit harsh on him having Keane and Berbatov taken off him as well during the summer. I suppose he had to go though, I think he "lost the dressing room" a long time ago.

He had a great record at Sevilla, but by Spanish media that was largely attributed to the Director of Football, and not Ramos himself. He also was actually able to communicate to his players - in Spanish - and actually get them playing the way he wanted, as oppose to having to relay his tactics through Gus - himself also not a native English speaker - to the players. Things would have got even more confusing when it had to be translated once more from English into Russian/Bulgarian/Croatian or whatever. In short, however shrewd you are as a tactician, if you can't communicate with your players you may aswell be speaking another language. Which, ironically, he was.

There is also a lot of opinion in the Spanish press which attributes M?laga's (Ramos' club before Sevilla) relegation the year of his departure down to Ramos. In short, a lot of players left and there were no good replacements brought in, and in terms of a team performance and ethic, it is said, the rot had set in well before he left.

He also does not understand the English Prem League at all, which shows in his formations, the kind of players we brought in, and his team selections. His reliance on Zokora is a joke. He works hard, and has a good engine but can neither shoot, tackle or pass. In short he is a liability and brings nothing. He also ****ed around so comprehensively with the team positionally that we had no hope of succeeding. Here is a short list of some players and where Ramos played them this season.

Bentley - RM, RM, CM, RB

Zokora - CM, DM, RB, CB

O'Hara - LB, LM, CM

Lennon - LM, RM

Modric - LM, AM,

Dos Santos - LM, RM, LWF

Jenas - RW, RB, CM, AM

You see the connection here. Players played all over the shop, with no time for them to gel or understand their role, and sometimes in absolutely ridiculous positions. Why in God's name both Jenas and Bentley were playing at RB during the course of some games is unforgivable, especially when we had the perfectly good Gunter, Corluka and even Saltari (who has TODAY been returned to the first team squad by Harry - go figure), is beyond me.

The CC was a great result, but was in reality just two or three very good performances, against teams we normally play well against anyway. Tottenham do seem to raise their game for games against the big teams, and the Carling Cup win was really just another example of this. We were aided by the arrogance of Wenger who refused to acknowledge that his young team were actually well outplayed in the first fixture, despite the draw, and they were therefore there for the taking. As for a cup final - anyone can win a cup final. Jenas was superb, Woodgate was solid, Malbraque was everywhere...the players really stepped up and played to their potential. How much Ramos had to do with this is obviously debateable: sad though it may seem to some 'big4 supporting, champs league-playing title contenders', for Spurs players it was the game of their lives. No wonder they were up for it.

After the CC the performances were unacceptable. We tumbled out of the UEFA cup to a PSV side we were very capable of beating, and the run of THREE league wins since Jan speaks for itself. Simply not good enough.

There have been several 'ITK' reports from sources within the club that suggest he had lost the dressing room with the abysmal start to the season, the failure to sign a top class striker after the huge losses of Berba, Keane and Defoe. Put this down to Comolli, Ramos or whoever, in short the cumulation of all this was too much. He had to go.

So the verdict? Cheers Ramos, no hard feelings. Thanks for the cup, thanks for trying, but I don't think you will ever cut it in the EPL.

The Gus and Comolli situation I might cover at another time, if prompted, and if desired lol

Edited October 27, 2008 by FaRSightxc2

[Martyn]

He had a great record at Sevilla, but by Spanish media that was largely attributed to the Director of Football, and not Ramos himself. He also was actually able to communicate to his players - in Spanish - and actually get them playing the way he wanted, as oppose to having to relay his tactics through Gus - himself also not a native English speaker - to the players. Things would have got even more confusing when it had to be translated once more from English into Russian/Bulgarian/Croatian or whatever. In short, however shrewd you are as a tactician, if you can't communicate with your players you may aswell be speaking another language. Which, ironically, he was.

There is also a lot of opinion in the Spanish press which attributes M?laga's (Ramos' club before Sevilla) relegation the year of his departure down to Ramos. In short, a lot of players left and there were no good replacements brought in, and in terms of a team performance and ethic, it is said, the rot had set in well before he left.

He also does not understand the English Prem League at all, which shows in his formations, the kind of players we brought in, and his team selections. His reliance on Zokora is a joke. He works hard, and has a good engine but can neither shoot, tackle or pass. In short he is a liability and brings nothing. He also ****ed around so comprehensively with the team positionally that we had no hope of succeeding. Here is a short list of some players and where Ramos played them this season.

Bentley - RM, RM, CM, RB

Zokora - CM, DM, RB, CB

O'Hara - LB, LM, CM

Lennon - LM, RM

Modric - LM, AM,

Dos Santos - LM, RM, LWF

Jenas - RW, RB, CM, AM

You see the connection here. Players played all over the shop, with no time for them to gel or understand their role, and sometimes in absolutely ridiculous positions. Why in God's name both Jenas and Bentley were playing at RB during the course of some games is unforgivable, especially when we had the perfectly good Gunter, Corluka and even Saltari (who has TODAY been returned to the first team squad by Harry - go figure), is beyond me.

The CC was a great result, but was in reality just two or three very good performances, against teams we normally play well against anyway. Tottenham do seem to raise their game for games against the big teams, and the Carling Cup win was really just another example of this. We were aided by the arrogance of Wenger who refused to acknowledge that his young team were actually well outplayed in the first fixture, despite the draw, and they were therefore there for the taking. As for a cup final - anyone can win a cup final. Jenas was superb, Woodgate was solid, Malbraque was everywhere...the players really stepped up and played to their potential. How much Ramos had to do with this is obviously debateable: sad though it may seem to some 'big4 supporting, champs league-playing title contenders', for Spurs players it was the game of their lives. No wonder they were up for it.

After the CC the performances were unacceptable. We tumbled out of the UEFA cup to a PSV side we were very capable of beating, and the run of THREE league wins since Jan speaks for itself. Simply not good enough.

There have been several 'ITK' reports from sources within the club that suggest he had lost the dressing room with the abysmal start to the season, the failure to sign a top class striker after the huge losses of Berba, Keane and Defoe. Put this down to Comolli, Ramos or whoever, in short the cumulation of all this was too much. He had to go.

So the verdict? Cheers Ramos, no hard feelings. Thanks for the cup, thanks for trying, but I don't think you will ever cut it in the EPL.

The Gus and Comolli situation I might cover at another time, if prompted, and if desired lol

Top notch post that.

The stuff you mentioned about Ramos I found quite interesting as well. I didn't realise that he was so unappreciated by the Spanish media. Even so, regardless of the Director of Football's influence, Ramos did build a cracking little team. I always remember Sevilla as being a well drilled team, with a lot of pace and power which made them lethal on the counter attack.

I actually think Sevilla are the Spanish equivalent to Spurs in some ways. A fairly big club that should always be in or around the top six or eight teams in the league, and they also have the habit of selling their best players such as Alves, Keita, Ramos and Baptista, which is comparable to Spurs losing Carrick, Keane and Berbatov of late.

I agree that the language is a big issue, but with a will to learn and succeed that should be overcome, as it has by a lot of Premier League managers in recent years.

I think Ramos also made a mistake in the way he set his team up over here, I believe he wanted to mimic his setup at Sevilla, which in the Premier League can just not be done.

It took Rafa at Liverpool a season to learn "about the Premier League", and we finished fifth under him in his first season, but that was masked because of Rafa's amazing achievement in Europe (where tactically he can still not be matched).

In Rafa's second season he brought in the likes of Crouch and Sissoko, players who are built for the Premier League and who on an away day can solidify the team, which is where we struggled in Rafa's first season.

The positions you listed above for those players most of them have played before. Dos Santos, Modric and Lennon have all played in those positions for either club or country in the past. Bentley played CM at Blackburn sometimes, but there is no excuse for playing Jenas and Bentley at RB.

I think Redknapp will do well for you, he will install English values back into your club. Although hopefully your results will start picking up after you play us (twice) in the next few weeks;))

[Kralik]

He had a great record at Sevilla, but by Spanish media that was largely attributed to the Director of Football, and not Ramos himself. He also was actually able to communicate to his players - in Spanish - and actually get them playing the way he wanted, as oppose to having to relay his tactics through Gus - himself also not a native English speaker - to the players. Things would have got even more confusing when it had to be translated once more from English into Russian/Bulgarian/Croatian or whatever. In short, however shrewd you are as a tactician, if you can't communicate with your players you may aswell be speaking another language. Which, ironically, he was.

There is also a lot of opinion in the Spanish press which attributes M?laga's (Ramos' club before Sevilla) relegation the year of his departure down to Ramos. In short, a lot of players left and there were no good replacements brought in, and in terms of a team performance and ethic, it is said, the rot had set in well before he left.

He also does not understand the English Prem League at all, which shows in his formations, the kind of players we brought in, and his team selections. His reliance on Zokora is a joke. He works hard, and has a good engine but can neither shoot, tackle or pass. In short he is a liability and brings nothing. He also ****ed around so comprehensively with the team positionally that we had no hope of succeeding. Here is a short list of some players and where Ramos played them this season.

Bentley - RM, RM, CM, RB

Zokora - CM, DM, RB, CB

O'Hara - LB, LM, CM

Lennon - LM, RM

Modric - LM, AM,

Dos Santos - LM, RM, LWF

Jenas - RW, RB, CM, AM

You see the connection here. Players played all over the shop, with no time for them to gel or understand their role, and sometimes in absolutely ridiculous positions. Why in God's name both Jenas and Bentley were playing at RB during the course of some games is unforgivable, especially when we had the perfectly good Gunter, Corluka and even Saltari (who has TODAY been returned to the first team squad by Harry - go figure), is beyond me.

The CC was a great result, but was in reality just two or three very good performances, against teams we normally play well against anyway. Tottenham do seem to raise their game for games against the big teams, and the Carling Cup win was really just another example of this. We were aided by the arrogance of Wenger who refused to acknowledge that his young team were actually well outplayed in the first fixture, despite the draw, and they were therefore there for the taking. As for a cup final - anyone can win a cup final. Jenas was superb, Woodgate was solid, Malbraque was everywhere...the players really stepped up and played to their potential. How much Ramos had to do with this is obviously debateable: sad though it may seem to some 'big4 supporting, champs league-playing title contenders', for Spurs players it was the game of their lives. No wonder they were up for it.

After the CC the performances were unacceptable. We tumbled out of the UEFA cup to a PSV side we were very capable of beating, and the run of THREE league wins since Jan speaks for itself. Simply not good enough.

There have been several 'ITK' reports from sources within the club that suggest he had lost the dressing room with the abysmal start to the season, the failure to sign a top class striker after the huge losses of Berba, Keane and Defoe. Put this down to Comolli, Ramos or whoever, in short the cumulation of all this was too much. He had to go.

So the verdict? Cheers Ramos, no hard feelings. Thanks for the cup, thanks for trying, but I don't think you will ever cut it in the EPL.

The Gus and Comolli situation I might cover at another time, if prompted, and if desired lol

With regards to Ramos playing these guys in various positions.. thats nothing unusual.. he was trying to find the weaknesses and strengths of his squad.. most managers do this.. I recall Kolo Toure started in midfield and now he is a CB.. Flamini played in defence and midfield for us.. Eboye played RB and now he is a winger.. Essien played in defence and midfield for Chelsea and Gerrard was moved alot between central midfield and wing until finally Rafa decided the best place for him.. thats no reason to fire a manager coz if they dont do this they cant understand what sort of players they have..

Someone might argue.. why not do this in training? The fact is that being a scout and watching players play for another team OR watching tapes to see what they can do OR watching players in training under no pressure is very different from being a manager on matchday and having a game plan and actually putting players in positions (where they did well in training or showed they can fit in training sessions) and finding out what they can do and how they fit into your plan coz that is what its all about.. the matchday.. and ultimately you have to try them in spots you feel they can do well.. it is a gamble of course.. but it can pay off big and you can discover a talent abt a player that no one knew existed.

I agree with Martyn abt you losing key players.. the whole of attack.. Defoe, Keane and Berbatov. That made life hard for Ramos too. I also agree abt Rafa taking a long time to learn abt the EPL.. I rem his legendary rotation system where he used to rotate entire squads and ended up 4th-5th in the league for some seasons but L'Pool stuck with him and he learnt and look at where they are this time around.

Managers are under growing and constant stress as Wenger said.. and IMO its not a good precedence set by Spurs if they fired him coz he wanted to try some things and they didn't work.. Spurs SHOULD'VE given him time in that case... I don't know or care who Gus or Comolli are but just wanted to comment on this.. Ramos needed time.. of course Spurs had every right to get rid of him coz they wanted results.. who doesnt.. but its very unfair to say he is not a capable manager.. the rate at which managers are being fired in the last 2-3 seasons is shocking! When a team wins a cup most ppl appriaciate the players and very few the manager.. and if they do badly everyone gets on the manager's back.. unless its Newcastle:pp

Edited October 28, 2008 by Kralik

[gregb0b]

Wow, Just catching up to what happened during the weeked :(.... pool owns us and the home win streak of 4 years? lol...

rajput, the season is still young my friend :unsure:

[Rappy Veteran]

Wow, Just catching up to what happened during the weeked :(.... pool owns us and the home win streak of 4 years? lol...

rajput, the season is still young my friend :unsure:

Yeah theres a long time yet, always hate it when people say they can go on and win it, anything can happen.

[rajputwarrior]

Wow, Just catching up to what happened during the weeked :(.... pool owns us and the home win streak of 4 years? lol...

rajput, the season is still young my friend :unsure:

oh yeah, but i am just showing you in case you missed it ;)

[FaRSightxc2]

Top notch post that.

The stuff you mentioned about Ramos I found quite interesting as well. I didn't realise that he was so unappreciated by the Spanish media. Even so, regardless of the Director of Football's influence, Ramos did build a cracking little team. I always remember Sevilla as being a well drilled team, with a lot of pace and power which made them lethal on the counter attack.

I actually think Sevilla are the Spanish equivalent to Spurs in some ways. A fairly big club that should always be in or around the top six or eight teams in the league, and they also have the habit of selling their best players such as Alves, Keita, Ramos and Baptista, which is comparable to Spurs losing Carrick, Keane and Berbatov of late.

I agree that the language is a big issue, but with a will to learn and succeed that should be overcome, as it has by a lot of Premier League managers in recent years.

I think Ramos also made a mistake in the way he set his team up over here, I believe he wanted to mimic his setup at Sevilla, which in the Premier League can just not be done.

It took Rafa at Liverpool a season to learn "about the Premier League", and we finished fifth under him in his first season, but that was masked because of Rafa's amazing achievement in Europe (where tactically he can still not be matched).

In Rafa's second season he brought in the likes of Crouch and Sissoko, players who are built for the Premier League and who on an away day can solidify the team, which is where we struggled in Rafa's first season.

The positions you listed above for those players most of them have played before. Dos Santos, Modric and Lennon have all played in those positions for either club or country in the past. Bentley played CM at Blackburn sometimes, but there is no excuse for playing Jenas and Bentley at RB.

I think Redknapp will do well for you, he will install English values back into your club. Although hopefully your results will start picking up after you play us (twice) in the next few weeks ;)

There is a lot of truth in that, especially some of the Rafa comparisons. Ramos was originally brought in for the long term, so he could build a squad slowly. No one was expecting instant sucess, and speaking for the majority of spurs fans, there was very much the opinion until right at the end that he would get it right and begin to mould a good squad for the future. We weren't expecting miracles: in Ramos we trust.

I guess there are a few differences though between Juande and Rafa's first seasons. Firstly, and most obviously, although Liverpools form was shaky in his first year, it was no where near as abysmal as Tottenham's. After the 'post new manager bounce' we were truly woeful in the league, and never rose above 11th place all season. I am not saying Spurs have a divine right to be 'top half' but with the resources we have it should be a minimum requirement. He (and obviously Comolli who is at least equally responsible) had an entire summer to rebuild, but our form this season is inexcusable. Comparatively, Rafa finishing 5th was a hell of a lot better, especially with the 'tweaking' of the rules allowing Liverpool to re-enter the Champs League.

Secondly, Rafa did not have to contend with a Director of Football - he was allowed to bring in his own players and mould his own squad. Ramos was not given this opportunity. I am convinced that if Juande was given full reign over transfers he would have brought in more experienced players that were ready now and did not need bedding in, like the majority of our summer signings. His statement today (link below) eludes to this and he really does have a point. The whole DoF system simply did not work. It is unfortunate, because we did make some good signings in January and even the summer - Woodgate and Modric in particular. It was just the failure to fill key positions - namely strikers and a solid, dependable CM/DM that made things so bad.)

Thirdly, Rafa did have the good fortune to get his team to perform so incredibly in the Champs League. Despite the aforementioned CC run from Ramos - which, as I said before, was as much to do with the players, Wenger and the occasion as it was tactical genius - we performed poorly in the UEFA cup and were knocked out by a much better UTD team in the FA cup.

( Goodbye Tottenham by Juande Ramos. A true Gent. )

This statement above what a true gent Juande really is, and there are no hard feelings towards him. He won us a cup. He gave us two of the best performances against top London clubs that I have ever witnessed. But we were going the wrong direction fast, and the league form sealed his fate. Perhaps, given time, he could have moulded a good squad, but alongside Comolli and in the desperate position we were (and indeed are) in, it was time he simply didn't have. I am in no doubt that thinks would have got worse before they got better, and we simply could not take that risk, especially when reports were that he was losing the dressing room.

With regards to Ramos playing these guys in various positions.. thats nothing unusual.. he was trying to find the weaknesses and strengths of his squad.. most managers do this.. I recall Kolo Toure started in midfield and now he is a CB.. Flamini played in defence and midfield for us.. Eboye played RB and now he is a winger.. Essien played in defence and midfield for Chelsea and Gerrard was moved alot between central midfield and wing until finally Rafa decided the best place for him.. thats no reason to fire a manager coz if they dont do this they cant understand what sort of players they have..

Someone might argue.. why not do this in training? The fact is that being a scout and watching players play for another team OR watching tapes to see what they can do OR watching players in training under no pressure is very different from being a manager on matchday and having a game plan and actually putting players in positions (where they did well in training or showed they can fit in training sessions) and finding out what they can do and how they fit into your plan coz that is what its all about.. the matchday.. and ultimately you have to try them in spots you feel they can do well.. it is a gamble of course.. but it can pay off big and you can discover a talent abt a player that no one knew existed.

I agree with Martyn abt you losing key players.. the whole of attack.. Defoe, Keane and Berbatov. That made life hard for Ramos too. I also agree abt Rafa taking a long time to learn abt the EPL.. I rem his legendary rotation system where he used to rotate entire squads and ended up 4th-5th in the league for some seasons but L'Pool stuck with him and he learnt and look at where they are this time around.

Managers are under growing and constant stress as Wenger said.. and IMO its not a good precedence set by Spurs if they fired him coz he wanted to try some things and they didn't work.. Spurs SHOULD'VE given him time in that case... I don't know or care who Gus or Comolli are but just wanted to comment on this.. Ramos needed time.. of course Spurs had every right to get rid of him coz they wanted results.. who doesnt.. but its very unfair to say he is not a capable manager.. the rate at which managers are being fired in the last 2-3 seasons is shocking! When a team wins a cup most ppl appriaciate the players and very few the manager.. and if they do badly everyone gets on the manager's back.. unless its Newcastle :p

I agree with what you say about moving players around and the reasons for this - I covered it pretty extensively in my MASSIVE post a couple of pages ago. There is obviously reasons and logic behind it and it is obvious he wasn't just doing it for a laugh. But when we lost the first few games, especially with some many new players, we needed some stability and time to gel and this can not be achieved by playing around so comprehensively with the team every week. Pls read the post to see what I mean! It is a results game, and you can play and experiment to a degree, but if you don't get results that is ultimately what you are judged on.

In theory, I agree with the second bit too: managers should be given time. That is fine when they are winning some, but underperformed in others, and are safe in the table and perhaps playing only just below potential. But 2 points after 8 games? There is not one team that has been in the league more than two or three years that would have found that acceptable - Man City, Blackburn, Villa....etc...that would not have made the same decision. It is fine for Wenger to spout this stuff - he is entitled: it is his job to undermine Spurs through soundbites like this - but in reality, if he was in Levy's position, he would have made the same decision. We were in the brown and smelly, and it was not looking good.

[FaRSightxc2]

Edit - PS the long post was pg 20 :D

[nothuman]

Does anyone of you knows a way to watch a stream of the games tonight ? Especially the Man Utd game against West-Ham. Google find me a lot of results but I'm kind of lost and I don't tell the difference between a good and a bad streaming, or something.

Please help ?

Oh, and btw, I'm french and I usually can watch the games ont tv, but not tonight, thanks Canal+/Canal Satelite... European football it's the only reason why I paid for.

[FaRSightxc2]

Does anyone of you knows a way to watch a stream of the games tonight ? Especially the Man Utd game against West-Ham. Google find me a lot of results but I'm kind of lost and I don't tell the difference between a good and a bad streaming, or something.

Please help ?

Oh, and btw, I'm french and I usually can watch the games ont tv, but not tonight, thanks Canal+/Canal Satelite... European football it's the only reason why I paid for.

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