Apple may have shipped 2.5 million Macs in spring thanks to Vista

[Martog]

My mistake...they used to be called g5s but I get all mixed up some times with all the model names out there these days...

And you cannot really compare a PC/Mac regardless if it is Intel or AMD. You cannot have the exact same hardware in a PC or Mac for comparisons...or software for that matter. Plus how people use the system determines the comparison as well.

Must be confusing to remember dell's, considering you have a family, ie Inspirion, Dimension, OptiPlex, Vostro, then model numbers under them. :) Though its really harder to tell what you have as Mac just by saying "Oh I have a Macbook Pro" considering there have been several revisions of that already. :)

Though I do believe each revision has a model identifier under System Profiler, am I correct in that regard Cara? I do find it a harder to guess what Mac a person has unless they state their specs, where as a Dell has a family and model then you can go get stuff like drivers, but again I guess OS X has the drivers for the hardware built in. :)

[Cara Veteran]

I got a CORP account with Dell and I can pretty much order whatever I want in a system...including chipset. We by so many Dell systems that we get special treatment.

And I get model numbers mixed up all the time....just like I cannot remember what hte name of the current OSX is..Lyger?...j/k

That is not true, you do not get access to chipset options beyond options such as VPro or non-VPro.

I have access to the Dell Select Platinum Partner website, the highest level of Dell Partner Programs and can see every option you can configure a machine with...chipsets are not a selectable option. Dell does NOT keep stock on all chipsets just incase someone wants to order them, they provide one or two chipsets per line and mix and match from there.

Though I do believe each revision has a model identifier under System Profiler, am I correct in that regard Cara? I do find it a harder to guess what Mac a person has unless they state their specs, where as a Dell has a family and model then you can go get stuff like drivers, but again I guess OS X has the drivers for the hardware built in. :)

Correct.

[Martog]

I got a CORP account with Dell and I can pretty much order whatever I want in a system...including chipset. We by so many Dell systems that we get special treatment.

And I get model numbers mixed up all the time....just like I cannot remember what hte name of the current OSX is..Lyger?...j/k

Ok that maybe the case, but where do you get to customize the chipsets? Do you have to go to a special corp site or have to order them online? I've looked several of their models in both the Small and large business sections and none of them allow me to specify which chipset I want the motherboard to have, it is a specific family of Dell's or what?

[techbeck]

Must be confusing to remember dell's, considering you have a family, ie Inspirion, Dimension, OptiPlex, Vostro, then model numbers under them. :) Though its really harder to tell what you have as Mac just by saying "Oh I have a Macbook Pro" considering there have been several revisions of that already. :)

Though I do believe each revision has a model identifier under System Profiler, am I correct in that regard Cara? I do find it a harder to guess what Mac a person has unless they state their specs, where as a Dell has a family and model then you can go get stuff like drivers, but again I guess OS X has the drivers for the hardware built in. :)

Each Dell system has the model number on the site or top. So by looking at the system, I can tell the model. We can also querey the Dells over the network and pull the model number that way. But I dont have each model Dell or Mac in front of me to tell the model numbers. If I did, then I wouldnt get so confused...but sadly I dont have that much room at my desk. :)

[Martog]

That is not true, you do not get access to chipset options beyond options such as VPro or non-VPro.

I have access to the Dell Select Platinum Partner website, the highest level of Dell Partner Programs and can see every option you can configure a machine with...chipsets are not a selectable option. Dell does NOT keep stock on all chipsets just incase someone wants to order them, they provide one or two chipsets per line and mix and match from there.

Correct.

Thank you Cara, I was going to say, I never hard of Dell letting you specify which chipset you want, that would be alot of work as they would have to have many models of Intel boards laying around just in case the one person wants this specific chipset which is absurd for Dell to have to worry about that.

Also Cara, you might have missed it, but do you know or if you can check, do the Mac Pro's need a video card with a special firmware to make them work on the Mac OS X side of things like the old Radeon 7000 and Geforce 3' for the tower computers? I am kind of curious why aside from drivers you can't pop any PCI Express card in, though maybe it is just drivers.

[techbeck]

That is not true, you do not get access to chipset options beyond options such as VPro or non-VPro.

I have access to the Dell Select Platinum Partner website, the highest level of Dell Partner Programs and can see every option you can configure a machine with...chipsets are not a selectable option. Dell does NOT keep stock on all chipsets just incase someone wants to order them, they provide one or two chipsets per line and mix and match from there.

Hmm, not sure about that. I call my Dell rep and I get what I want regardless of the component. I am not saying thy have 30 diff chipsets floating around...but they do have a few. Wish I could show you but i cannot post info about my work or ordering practices (like screenshots and such)

[Cara Veteran]

Thank you Cara, I was going to say, I never hard of Dell letting you specify which chipset you want, that would be alot of work as they would have to have many models of Intel boards laying around just in case the one person wants this specific chipset which is absurd for Dell to have to worry about that.

Also Cara, you might have missed it, but do you know or if you can check, do the Mac Pro's need a video card with a special firmware to make them work on the Mac OS X side of things like the old Radeon 7000 and Geforce 3' for the tower computers? I am kind of curious why aside from drivers you can't pop any PCI Express card in, though maybe it is just drivers.

To be honest, I don't know the answer to that. Going to lunch now with my engineer so I'll ask. ;)

Hmm, not sure about that. I call my Dell rep and I get what I want regardless of the component.

I spoke to a Dell Enterprise Rep who just informed me in no uncertain terms they have a very limited component base to select from, they use a tool similar to the Gold Select Configuration Tool to build their quotes.

Ok, off to lunch, this should be fun to read when I get back.

[techbeck]

I spoke to a Dell Enterprise Rep who just informed me in no uncertain terms they have a very limited component base to select from, they use a tool similar to the Gold Select Configuration Tool to build their quotes.

Limited...yes...just one to choose from...no...that was my point.

ON a side note...I am liking Parallels for the Mac..works great and runs XP without a problem. I a m currently config all of our MAC PROs!! :) to use Parallels so we can get rid of their PCs.

[Martog]

Each Dell system has the model number on the site or top. So by looking at the system, I can tell the model. We can also querey the Dells over the network and pull the model number that way. But I dont have each model Dell or Mac in front of me to tell the model numbers. If I did, then I wouldnt get so confused...but sadly I dont have that much room at my desk. :)

That is what is nice about most prebuilts, they got a model number on them and you can generally know what is inside of them, someone says I have an iBook, well, lol, that could be an iBook G3 or G4, or if we want to have some fun, someone says I have an iMac. Which iMac? Uhhh, lol, they could describe and get a more general idea but they've all had G3, G4, G5, and Intel processors in them, I wish Apple would put a little more specific model number system on them but I guess they want to keep it simple and just it in the System Profiler, even then I never understood that scheme.

[tsupersonic]

This is going a little far out there though. Of course you can make a system cheaper than you can buy a Mac for, you can do that cheaper than Dell. And you can probably buy a cheaper Dell than Mac hardware, but what you can't do is install Mac OS X and it work 100% on that machine. That's the difference here.

If people don't want to use Windows, they have to buy a Mac and there are huge advantages to buying Mac hardware and running OS X on that hardware = it just simply works.

Mac users never tend to surprise me :laugh:

You probably think I am a troll now. Just hear me out. Why would you want to install OS X on a PC. I know there is a Hackintosh project out there, but you're right it's not going to work well with it. Mac OS is locked down, Apple designed it that way. It just surprises me that you imply that if you get a Dell, that it's not going to work somehow.

No, if people don't want to use Windows, they have other alternatives. Mac is one of them. However, one can build a PC and go the linux route.

I hate the argument, "It simply works." It doesn't make sense. Are you saying that a Dell out of the box, simply doesn't work? I don't understand that logic.

Sorry if this is turning into PC vs Mac, I don't intend it to be that way, but Hurmoth, you're implying windows doesn't work

[hagjohn]

It's funny, I've had more issues with my macbook than my Vista desktop. Luckily my freezing keyboard seems to be much better after 10.5.4

I don't have a dell or a gateway, etc.... I've built my own computer from quality hardware. I've had decent drivers (other than Nvidia graphic drivers but the lastest ones seem to be better).

You can't really compare Mac's to PC's, IMO. Mac's are closed hardware with only a few configurations. Most of the hardware is the same. PC's can have billions of different configurations, with all the different motherboards, graphic cards, NIC and wireless cards, etc. If you have 1 bad driver that is crashing your system, that isn't necessarily Microsoft's fault.. but I think MS should, after a crash if it's the drivers fault, tell the customer and the manufacturer that their driver crashed a system and work with them to fix the driver issue. I would be interested to see the stats on that.

[Martog]

Limited...yes...just one to choose from...no...that was my point.

ON a side note...I am liking Parallels for the Mac..works great and runs XP without a problem. I a m currently config all of our MAC PROs!! :) to use Parallels so we can get rid of their PCs.

Limited yes, still not the variety you can pick out for a home built system though and where the variations can come in. :)

Almost sounds like you never used VMware or Virtual PC on Windows. :) Virtual enviroments are quite nice for testing alternative OS's or needing a specific piece of software. I think sitting on my server I have VM's for OS/2 Warp 4, NT 3.51, NT 4, 2000 Pro and Server, 2003 Server, XP, Linux, Solaris and who knows what else. :)

[techbeck]

That is what is nice about most prebuilts, they got a model number on them and you can generally know what is inside of them, someone says I have an iBook, well, lol, that could be an iBook G3 or G4, or if we want to have some fun, someone says I have an iMac. Which iMac? Uhhh, lol, they could describe and get a more general idea but they've all had G3, G4, G5, and Intel processors in them, I wish Apple would put a little more specific model number system on them but I guess they want to keep it simple and just it in the System Profiler, even then I never understood that scheme.

Dell also offers a custom tag that includes the model, company name, s/n. and esc. This costs an extra $7 so I dont choose this option at all.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Jeeez I thought the Gamers Hangout was bad.

Seems the arguments of Windows vs Mac can be just as bad :pinch:

I use them both, and like them both for what they're good at (Y) (Which is *GASP*, different things from each other) Anyone thinks either are useless then you're an idiot.

I'm glad to see more Macs out there, not a lot of people know how to work/use OSX or have really seen it in use. No one in my family does apart from me.

[Martog]

Jeeez I thought the Gamers Hangout was bad.

Seems the arguments of Windows vs Mac can be just as bad :pinch:

I use them both, and like them both for what they're good at (Y) (Which is *GASP*, different things) Anyone thinks either are useless then you're an idiot.

And to think we haven't really thrown in Linux in here yet though a few mentions of it has cropped up. :)

It more has less come down to a PC vs PC arguement with OS's on the table but right now seems to be hardware.

Come on Audioboxer, maybe one of us will be famous like you and get people to name themselves after us or use RL names and give us heck. :)

[tsupersonic]

Without a Doubt, next to consoles traditional PC's are the more popular gaming choice. :)

As for building a cheaper Mac, when comparing against the iMac people tend to forget to include the LCD Screen. ;) Regarding the need for a headless Mac to balance the price argument? AGREE!

Last line...hardly blindly, I think Apple users simply tend to understand the value of their machines. (Sidenote, look at the resale value on Apple equipment versus traditional PC. :))

Yes, next to consoles. But for computer gaming, PC.

Cheapest LCD on Newegg is $139. Sure you could argue it's not a large screen, it doesn't offer large enough resolution like the iMac's. Cheapest 20" screen on newegg is $199.99. Some people don't need a 20" screen. Also, you can use another monitor you have lying around your house.

Sure, there is "value" of Apple machines. PC's are so cheap today, that they don't really have a value. In the end, that is great for consumers, because PC's are affordable. When you talk about complete computer packages for $399+, no Apple computer can touch that. Computers are becoming necessities. Apple is just making you pay a huge premium, which may be worth it to some, but totally not worth it for me. They offer me nothing

[techbeck]

Limited yes, still not the variety you can pick out for a home built system though and where the variations can come in. :)

Almost sounds like you never used VMware or Virtual PC on Windows. :) Virtual enviroments are quite nice for testing alternative OS's or needing a specific piece of software. I think sitting on my server I have VM's for OS/2 Warp 4, NT 3.51, NT 4, 2000 Pro and Server, 2003 Server, XP, Linux, Solaris and who knows what else. :)

True...

I have used VMWARE but only in a server environment. Virtual PC I never used (I am aware of it) and the only reason we didnt use Parallels before is because it will only run on Intel based systems. I just ordered and received 4 new Macs so I have been busy.

And I am not as familuar on Macs as I am PCs. I had to learn Macs when I started this job 6 years ago and have learned everything on my own. So if I sound dumb when I am talking about Macs, I apologize. :)

[tsupersonic]

Limited yes, still not the variety you can pick out for a home built system though and where the variations can come in. :)

Almost sounds like you never used VMware or Virtual PC on Windows. :) Virtual enviroments are quite nice for testing alternative OS's or needing a specific piece of software. I think sitting on my server I have VM's for OS/2 Warp 4, NT 3.51, NT 4, 2000 Pro and Server, 2003 Server, XP, Linux, Solaris and who knows what else. :)

OS/2 :woot: Have you heard of ecomstation? A company called Serenity makes ecomstation which is based on OS/2 but for new hardware.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

And to think we haven't really thrown in Linux in here yet though a few mentions of it has cropped up. :)

It more has less come down to a PC vs PC arguement with OS's on the table but right now seems to be hardware.

Come on Audioboxer, maybe one of us will be famous like you and get people to name themselves after us or use RL names and give us heck. :)

Linux is good as well.

IMO all three operating systems are good, all have their uses and are all valid for everyday use. I use Windows and OSX, and I would easily use Linux as well if I were knowledgeable with it/had an immediate use for it.

I guess the hardware discussions are more on the table/up in the air.

There's pluses and cons with PC hardware and Mac hardware, ranging from aesthetics/build quality to pricing and functionalities.

I like the aesthetics and clean looks of apple products, you don't see any scabby apple setups out there (however there's tons of ugly "racer boy" LED PC cases/laptops kicking about, ect :p)

But you do pay a premium for the looks.

[Martog]

Yes, next to consoles. But for computer gaming, PC.

Cheapest LCD on Newegg is $139. Sure you could argue it's not a large screen, it doesn't offer large enough resolution like the iMac's. Cheapest 20" screen on newegg is $199.99. Some people don't need a 20" screen. Also, you can use another monitor you have lying around your house.

Sure, there is "value" of Apple machines. PC's are so cheap today, that they don't really have a value. In the end, that is great for consumers, because PC's are affordable. When you talk about complete computer packages for $399+, no Apple computer can touch that. Computers are becoming necessities. Apple is just making you pay a huge premium, which may be worth it to some, but totally not worth it for me. They offer me nothing

Don't Apple machines use IPS screens anyhow? I am not sure if those cheaper LCD's you can get from newegg are IPS, which I think IPS screens could be generally more expensive I don't know, but that would be a factor.

True...

I have used VMWARE but only in a server environment. Virtual PC I never used (I am aware of it) and the only reason we didnt use Parallels before is because it will only run on Intel based systems. I just ordered and received 4 new Macs so I have been busy.

And I am not as familuar on Macs as I am PCs. I had to learn Macs when I started this job 6 years ago and have learned everything on my own. So if I sound dumb when I am talking about Macs, I apologize. :)

I think Connectix used to own Virtual PC, which was bought my MS who updated it. It was one of the only VM solutions to run x86 on a PowerPC Mac. Though as of today, the last Virtual PC for Mac was 7.x which was for G5's at most and never updated by MS beyond that for Mac's, they only update it on the Windows side now and it is free. Basically Virtual PC is probably the basis for the Hyper-V tech in 2008 I would imagine. Though for commerical VMware is really the only paid for VM on the PC now, also making Fusion for the mac to compete with Paralells, that's a topic you can look up in the Mac forums to see which one is supposed to be better. :) Not sure with Paralells but with Fusion you can make it so the Windows apps run within OS X basically like the old Classic Apps did on OS X, removing the virtualization window, running Windows apps side by side with Mac ones. :)

[techbeck]

Limited yes, still not the variety you can pick out for a home built system though and where the variations can come in. :)

Almost sounds like you never used VMware or Virtual PC on Windows. :) Virtual enviroments are quite nice for testing alternative OS's or needing a specific piece of software. I think sitting on my server I have VM's for OS/2 Warp 4, NT 3.51, NT 4, 2000 Pro and Server, 2003 Server, XP, Linux, Solaris and who knows what else. :)

True...

I have used VMWARE but only in a server environment. Virtual PC I never used (I am aware of it) and the only reason we didnt use Parallels before is because it will only run on Intel based systems. I just ordered and received 4 new Macs so I have been busy.

And I am not as familuar on Macs as I am PCs. I had to learn Macs when I started this job 6 years ago and have learned everything on my own. So if I sound dumb when I am talking about Macs, I apologize. :)

[tsupersonic]

Really, I have nothing against Apple. But like I said, the users can be really blind

[Martog]

OS/2 :woot: Have you heard of ecomstation? A company called Serenity makes ecomstation which is based on OS/2 but for new hardware.

Never heard of it, time to hit google. :) I have OS/2 Warp 3 and 4 full version so was fun to tinker around with it.

Linux is good as well.

IMO all three operating systems are good, all have their uses and are all valid for everyday use. I use Windows and OSX, and I would easily use Linux as well if I were knowledgeable with it/had an immediate use for it.

I guess the hardware discussions are more on the table/up in the air.

There's pluses and cons with PC hardware and Mac hardware, ranging from aesthetics/build quality to pricing and functionalities.

I like the aesthetics and clean looks of apple products, you don't see any scabby apple setups out there (however there's tons of ugly "racer boy" LED PC cases/laptops kicking about, ect :p)

But you do pay a premium for the looks.

Yes they all have their uses. I don't use Linux as I really don't have a need for it right now, maybe if I wanted to run an Apache webserver though I could just do that on my OS X machine, but yeah, definately different reasons to use whatever.

Yes I do like cleaner looking computers. I just finally got my desktop case replaced, was using a Thermaltake Shark which isn't as bad as some, but I picked up a very clean looking Lian Li case, I simply love the more clean look it has than my old. :) And yes I did pay a premium for the case for the looks, the V1010B, newegg sells it for $270. :)

[RAID 0]

That isn't the point though. The point Cara is trying to make is the difference between apples and oranges. You cannot buy an Apple system with an AMD processor, but you can an Intel processor. So to accurately compare the two, you need to use Intel.

Remember your words when you're talking about how good that G-3/4/5 iMac still is.

Remember, Apple switched to Intel, where-as Dell, HP, Gateway and custom built PCs have ALWAYS been able to use Intel, AMD, Cyrix and VIA processors in their builds. We have choices, LOTS of choices on what hardware fits our needs. To me, that is THE MOST IMPORTANT reason I'll forever have a home built PC in my room.

How easy is it to upgrade to CPU in a Power Mac, iMac and Mini ? What happens if you got the first Intel Mac, can you upgrade to the Core 2 without chaining the mother board (logic board)?? Or do you have to go buy a whole new unit because you can't just simply, "swap out the mother board"? Will you be able to upgrade to the 45nm chips if you're running a 65nm now? In the iMac and Mac mini, what if your "super drive" drive breaks and your computer is out of warranty? If that happened to me, it would take no longer than 5 minutes to swap out the bad part, all with out spending tons of money and time sending to the manufacturer.

I like OS X, I really do. It's clean, stable and reliable. It just doesn't do what I need an OS to do, as far as my everyday computing needs. If Apple was smart enough to ever release OS X for PCs, I'd be all over it so I could have one computer with all the great operating systems on one PC. I just wish people wouldn't buy into the hype like some corporate ###### who's spoon fed what to like.

/joint ramblings

[techbeck]

I had a blue LED pc a few years back...got annoying after a month or so and I bought a new case and transplanted all my equipment.

Case is an important part of building a PC. I got a Antec case myself...payed over 100. Its aluminum which helps with the cooler.