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Atheist group sues Bush, governor over National Day of Prayer

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Lee G.    236
This national day of prayer does not fall into the category of unconstitutional. It endorses no particular religion or set of believes and it does not prohibit the free exercise of those believes.

All and all, I think people need to get some thicker skin. This is just another cause of political correctness and there is nothing in the world that bothers me more then political correctness :)

Oh and for your information I am not a religious person.

It doesn't have to endorse a particular religion or prohibit the free exercise of those believes to be constitution. Have a look at the Supreme Court case Wallace v. Jaffree (1985).

An Alabama law required that each school day begin with a moment of 'silent meditation or voluntary prayer'. A student's parent sued claiming that the law violated the Establishment Clause by compelling students to pray and exposed students to religious indoctrination. The District Court allowed the practice, but the Court of Appeals found the practice to be unconstitutional.

This was completely voluntary and did not endorse any particular religion. I may be wrong, but as far as I can see, this isn't much different to the national day of prayer - it's a public thing, you don't have to participate, and it does not endorse any particular religion. If the same logic is applied to this as the case I have given as an example, then surely this national day of prayer must be unconstitutional?

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ScorpioRGc1    46

That atheist group can go stick it where the sun don't shine. No one is forcing them to pray on a given day; its there for those who wish it. There's a freedom of religion in this country, and a prayer day applies to almost all of them...except atheists. The majority should never bend to the will of a minority. Besides, this country was founded by religious folk, not atheists. You call religion a virus...I call atheism a plague. But whatever, you're free to believe what you want.

I hope this gets tossed out, and quickly. What's next, are the atheists going to try to ban Christmas (not to mention the other December religious holidays)? The madness must stop.

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Ayepecks    117
Christmas is a religious holiday though, not a National (In other words including everyone) Day of <religious thing here>.

I'm not against religion as some people are here, but I do think that the Atheist group should be able to sue.

The thing about Christians voting for Obama, him being Christian is just like another factor to persuade them. If they disagreed with most of his principles/whatever, and there was a atheist better suited, then I'm sure they would vote for the atheist (Although I'm not sure of how idiotic some people are so they might vote for a Christian no matter what).

If you're going to quote me, please quote the whole thing.

I never claimed it wasn't a religious holiday. I'm really unsure of what you're trying to imply here. Please read the rest of my post and address that, because you're simply ignoring it.

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Kirkburn    172
I've seen *way* too much for me to ever believe God does not exist. It's things that you would have to see for yourself - if I tell them, you'd simply write me off, as I'm just one person, and one person can easily be fooled.

Goof for you. No reason for us to believe it.

If one brings up Europe, I only need to remind them of the burgeoning Muslim population - I'd expect within 25 years or so, for the most of the secular governments of Europe to become Islamic in nature, due to the voting bloc voting Muslims in office.

Replace Muslims with Jews in that, and you have a classic piece of propaganda. It's a ridiculous assertion, and is just fear-mongering.

If one brings up China, I only need mention of the explosive growth of Christianity there - some estimates state that China is 33% Christian - and that is under persecution from the government - where openly saying you're a Christian will bring you imprisonment (at least until recently). Look at China in 50 years to openly accept Christianity.

I don't think many people are surprised that some Chinese people are turning to religion. When you have problems, as China reportedly does in the areas of human rights, it is a natural human reaction to look for help (this has no bearing on the reality of that help).

This is besides the fact you are attempting to insinuate that only the last 60 years of history is relevant to the history of religion in China.

Take away religion, and it leaves a vacuum. One that will be filled by *something*. Don't believe me? Look at how long "true" secular governments have lasted in history...

You tell us? If you want to make a point, make it. Don't tell us something without actually saying it.

I might as well say: "Take away fish, and it leaves a vacuum. One that will be filled by *something*. Don't believe me? Look at how long "true" fish-less governments have lasted in history..." It has the same persuasive properties, and might possibly convince someone who doesn't bother to think about it for a few seconds.

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+SOOPRcow    133
The name is the problem. In the word national, it included people who don't want to be included. Also,?the idea?that?religion?of any sort?is actively supported by?the state?is disgusting. It should?be?tolerated by?the state,?not opposed,?but?the?****?is it?doing?being?factored into political discussions?

I can't eradicate religion completely, but if I could, I would. It's all based on the arbitrary and imagination. Politics should never include the arbitrary and imagination.

No it doesn't specifically include them, they're not being forced to get on there knees and pray, they're not being persecuted for there believes (or lack there of). Pretty much people just need to stop getting all butt hurt over stupid ****. Also, many of our moral believes as humans are based in the foundations of religion, to completely ignore the religious aspect of humanity is ignorant.

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Ayepecks    117

I just caught up on the thread, and some of you need to do your history.

The country was founded on a belief in God. Go read the Declaration of Independence ("... the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them ...") if you don't believe me. Yet the statement "Under God" needs to be removed? Yet a national holiday saying you may pray (but not forcing that belief upon anyone in any context of the word) needs to be amended?

Are we going to amend the Declaration of Independence now?

Listen, I don't think religious acts should be forced upon anyone. I don't think beliefs should be forced upon anyone. But if something ISN'T doing any of that, why get your panties in a bunch? Because you may pray makes this law unconstitutional? It's just a meaningless law that can't be enforced due to its very wording and nature.

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PixilEyes    128

Being a Nihlist I'm stuck bewteen "Should I care" and "I support this."

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Kirkburn    172
The majority should never bend to the will of a minority.

Sure you'd be saying that if you were the minority? How about if 49% of the population were atheist, and 51% Christian. Should the latter have say in everything religious? Or should they perhaps listen to each other and come up with a situation agreeable for both?

It's not a good idea to make such bold-faced assertions, especially as silly as that one.

Besides, this country was founded by religious folk, not atheists. You call religion a virus...I call atheism a plague. But whatever, you're free to believe what you want.

But the country was founded on secular ideals. NOT religious ones. I'm sure some were religious - but maybe they were sensible enough not to try and run the country that way.

I hope this gets tossed out, and quickly. What's next, are the atheists going to try to ban Christmas (not to mention the other December religious holidays)? The madness must stop.

Oh look, it's the slippery slope argument. Didn't take long.

No, atheists are not going to try and ban Christmas. It is a part of the culture, and doesn't even need to be religious. It's a day of appreciation for other people.

A National Day of Prayer can only be religious.

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+SOOPRcow    133
It doesn't have to endorse a particular religion or prohibit the free exercise of those believes to be constitution. Have a look at the Supreme Court case Wallace v. Jaffree (1985).

This was completely voluntary and did not endorse any particular religion. I may be wrong, but as far as I can see, this isn't much different to the national day of prayer - it's a public thing, you don't have to participate, and it does not endorse any particular religion. If the same logic is applied to this as the case I have given as an example, then surely this national day of prayer must be unconstitutional?

It's not the same though.

"An Alabama law required that each school day begin with a moment of 'silent meditation or voluntary prayer'."

This national day of prayer does not require anyone to participate in any form. The Alabama law in question required either silent meditation OR voluntary prayer without choice of participation.

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Kirkburn    172
No it doesn't specifically include them, they're not being forced to get on there knees and pray, they're not being persecuted for there believes (or lack there of). Pretty much people just need to stop getting all butt hurt over stupid ****. Also, many of our moral believes as humans are based in the foundations of religion, to completely ignore the religious aspect of humanity is ignorant.

Perhaps religion gave us some of our morals. Why on earth, as intelligent, compassionate people, do we need religion to keep them?

Are you only a moral person due to your religion? Atheists have morals too, and pretty much identical to yours, but don't need them prescribed out of a 2000 year old book.

Remember this: atheists do NOT pretend religion had no effect in the development of humanity. Most just don't see a need for its continued involvement - we're intelligent people - we are entirely able to develop good morals on our own. Christians already pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow - which must show a sense of underlying (better!) morals unrelated to the Bible.

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Kirkburn    172
The country was founded on a belief in God. Go read the Declaration of Independence ("... the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them ...") if you don't believe me. Yet the statement "Under God" needs to be removed? Yet a national holiday saying you may pray (but not forcing that belief upon anyone in any context of the word) needs to be amended?

There's more than one type of God - for example, there's the personal Abrahamic "skygod", and there's the non-personal deity who oversees the Universe. It is very very likely the latter was being referred to.

Are we going to amend the Declaration of Independence now?

Never understood why doing such a thing is a problem anyway. Some people seem to worship these several hundred year old documents, as if life cannot possibly have changed since then, and require different things.

Listen, I don't think religious acts should be forced upon anyone. I don't think beliefs should be forced upon anyone. But if something ISN'T doing any of that, why get your panties in a bunch? Because you may pray makes this law unconstitutional? It's just a meaningless law that can't be enforced due to its very wording and nature.

The problem is the idea of the Government endorsing religion. If it's only referring to prayer in the absolute most general sense, and cannot be specific to any one religion then personally I'd be fairly okay with that. However, it still irks me that it's suggesting that there is something to pray to - no thanks. I don't need the Government telling me that.

Given that last response of mine, I'm going to make that a little clearer. Religious people require that there be a God, so everything fits into that world-view. You don't see a problem with prayer, because you see something to pray to. You also see less of a problem with other religions praying, because you still feel they have something to pray to - even if they're supposedly directing it the wrong way.

What is very hard to get across is that atheists don't need to pray - it's just irrelevant. They still care about other people, live their lives in much the same way, think much the same - but don't need to appeal to some higher power to do so. That the government is seemingly endorsing it via these actions is a problem. It is not a problem with Christianity or any specific religion. It's not a personal attack.

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Eric    1,605
While I don't think beliefs should be forced on anyone, simply don't say the words or don't celebrate the day if you don't believe it. Just like you don't have to celebrate Christmas -- although many atheists do, just without the religious aspect.

So you wouldn't have a problem with a "National Day of Goat Sacrificing?" You don't have to participate...

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remix17    1
Besides, this country was founded by religious folk, not atheists.

Should we bring back the slavery too then?

So you wouldn't have a problem with a "National Day of Goat Sacrificing?" You don't have to participate...

How about a "Nation Day of Abortion"?

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Eric    1,605
I just caught up on the thread, and some of you need to do your history.

The country was founded on a belief in God. Go read the Declaration of Independence ("... the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them ...") if you don't believe me. Yet the statement "Under God" needs to be removed? Yet a national holiday saying you may pray (but not forcing that belief upon anyone in any context of the word) needs to be amended?

Are we going to amend the Declaration of Independence now?

Listen, I don't think religious acts should be forced upon anyone. I don't think beliefs should be forced upon anyone. But if something ISN'T doing any of that, why get your panties in a bunch? Because you may pray makes this law unconstitutional? It's just a meaningless law that can't be enforced due to its very wording and nature.

No, the nation was founded on the belief that you shouldn't be imprisoned from your debts, that you should have representation in the government for your taxes, and that you shouldn't be forced to follow another individual's tenets of faith. There's a difference between reading and comprehending. :) Yes. "Under God" needs to be removed from government documents it's in. (The DoI isn't one of them.)

When I was in elementary school in Georgia, you got sent to the principal's office if you didn't want to prey (sic) with everyone else.

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Kirkburn    172

To National Days of Whatever posts:

To pre-empt the likely response about the sanctity of life - many people feel that making people believe supernatural things are "real" is abuse. It's not physical, but it is mental abuse.

If comparisons are to be made, physical comparisons aren't a good realm. Both "sides" have "physical abuse" arguments - however, this is more a problem of the mind.

Regarding the line "The country was founded on a belief in God". Just because something is mentioned, isn't the same as being "founded upon". If it was founded upon that, what you would have is a theocracy - and that's something that the US has avoided until recent years. Unless you are suggesting the US actually started out as a theocracy, but we didn't notice?

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Eric    1,605
Should we bring back the slavery too then?

How about a "Nation Day of Abortion"?

Yeah, that's fine. I can't have an abortion, so it doesn't affect me. ;)

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+Gary7    7,591
No, the nation was founded on the belief that you shouldn't be imprisoned from your debts, that you should have representation in the government for your taxes, and that you shouldn't be forced to follow another individual's tenets of faith. There's a difference between reading and comprehending. :) Yes. "Under God" needs to be removed from government documents it's in. (The DoI isn't one of them.)

When I was in elementary school in Georgia, you got sent to the principal's office if you didn't want to prey (sic) with everyone else.

It was also founded so that people can practice their own religion without recourse from the Government.

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Eric    1,605
That atheist group can go stick it where the sun don't shine. No one is forcing them to pray on a given day; its there for those who wish it. There's a freedom of religion in this country, and a prayer day applies to almost all of them...except atheists. The majority should never bend to the will of a minority. Besides, this country was founded by religious folk, not atheists. You call religion a virus...I call atheism a plague. But whatever, you're free to believe what you want.

I hope this gets tossed out, and quickly. What's next, are the atheists going to try to ban Christmas (not to mention the other December religious holidays)? The madness must stop.

I am not an atheist. I am agnostic. And neither you nor anyone else will force me to do something I don't want to do. This is a typical polarizing attitude and is one of the main reasons the US is in the shape it's in. People harp on the "Under God" that was added to the Pledge so much and forget the phrase that comes immediately before it: "One Nation".

It was also founded so that people can practice their own religion without recourse from the Government.

Exactly. I said that. It also means the government can not and should not force or even endorse any religion.

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roadgeek9    0
Exactly. I said that. It also means the government can not and should not force or even endorse any religion.

But at the rate we're going, that's never going to happen.

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Lee G.    236
It's not the same though.

"An Alabama law required that each school day begin with a moment of 'silent meditation or voluntary prayer'."

This national day of prayer does not require anyone to participate in any form. The Alabama law in question required either silent meditation OR voluntary prayer without choice of participation.

Hmmm... you're right there. I interpreted it that it was voluntary, although now I see that only the prayer is voluntary :/ My bad.

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roadgeek9    0
It was also founded so that people can practice their own religion without recourse from the Government.

I still can't understand my grandfather's intolerance of ALL Muslims. More importantly, why some decided to make Obama supposedly being a Muslin was a world-class issue.

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Kirkburn    172
It was also founded so that people can practice their own religion without recourse from the Government.

Which is irrelevant to this discussion, whatever you would like to think.

How could not having a national day of prayer is any way adversely affect you? It adversely affects atheists because it's indoctrinating people into the idea there is something to pray to. That should always be a personal choice. For children too.

People harp on the "Under God" that was added to the Pledge so much and forget the phrase that comes immediately before it: "One Nation".

Personally I would have preferred "One World" - borders are arbitrary lines in the sand and encourage fear of the "foreigners" and all things not within those borders. We are a single race of beings across the world - one day I hope we'll actually act like it.

Edited by Kirkburn

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remix17    1

Isn't every day a day of prayer? Do you really need a designated day for praying? The last time I checked, nobody's prayer rights were denied on a daily basis. We don't need a National Day of Breathing Air, do we?

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wst50    0
Also, many of our moral believes as humans are based in the foundations of religion, to completely ignore the religious aspect of humanity is ignorant.
Mine aren't. Humans can develop morals without religion. It's called common sense.

@Remix17- maybe fish need a National Day of Breathing Air, those suckas don't know what they're missing :p

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houlty    2

as an atheist, i also believe religion and politics should be totally separate. in the UK its pretty much like this, and there's no negatives to this that i can think of.

also, everyone (atheist or not) should read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. A very good book.

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